I would love to see more open world pve games, however there are very few of them out there.

Many pve games have Zones. You have the starting zone, you have the lvl 20-30 zone and as you level, you move through the zones with little reason to go back to the previous zone unless a quests asks you to go back and talk to an NPC that is in a preveious zone.

The problem with this is, we have very large worlds but we play in very small areas. Sometimes the Developers will give you a reason to go back, such as achievements: Didn't do a Dungeon? Go back and get the achievement. But for the most part you just play in the zone fit's your current level.

I think that one way to get around having zones would be creatures and NPC's that leveled. A wolf kills a Deer, it might gain in skill points or expirience points. A Goblin works at the forge, he might get stronger and have better armor. A Dragon and a Bear get into a battle, who ever wins would be stronger.

Areas that are populated by players would kill more of the creatures and keep their level or skills low. Out of the way places might end up with Super creatures that are very powerful. Thus you would never quite know what areas are safe and which areas weren't, and the areas that are "Safe" might change thus keeping the world fresh.

Basically I am tired of stagnent worlds and would love to see different ways of doing things in the MMO world. I would love it if games new AAA games would also incorporate some of the ideas presented in Wurm or in Xion as a way of keeping the world  from getting too repetitive. 

Why can't we have questing and the ability to chop down a tree? Why do we have to have zones? Can't we incorporate Ideas that were presented in Uo7 such as NPC's with routines instead of having the quest giver just standing in the same spot everytime you walk by?

Maybe creatures and monsters that leveled or increased in skills and NPC's with their own routines isn't the answer but it might be a start.

Don't add them?

because game/engine performance is a careful balancing act of features vs. graphics vs. size/scale and scalability.

Thankfully, the total number of "points" you get to assign to each category keeps going up and up as hardware and network speeds continue to get faster and faster.

Well I'm not sure what you mean, because in games like WoW and Rift, the "zones" have seemless integration, and you can access the "zone" from almost any corner and section.  Compared to games like DCUO and FFXI where the zone is accessed from a few key spots on the map, or games like Aion and SWTOR where the zone is it's own instance, accessed from the faction hub or your spaceship.  Granted, all these games had the "level 11-20 zone/level 35-65" syndrom.

One game, FFXIV, had high level and low level mobs running around, in the same zones, almost side by side, and the community hated it (among other things).  FFXIV also had specific access points to each zone, nothing like the seamless zone integration like WoW. 

It may be nice to have high level and low level mobs running around side by side on paper, but it really does get in the way of adventuring BECAUSE it one shots you, and all your friends.  Once you're high enough to kill said monster, it will just respawn again in 5 mins...  thus eternally tormenting poor noobies. 

A better solution would to just have multiple 11-20 etc areas.  Where you progress really up to you.  And zone's as a concept may never go away, because the mood of an area has to change.  For example, the dark forest area needs a sky that's darker and misty, to give it the proper mood.  Or a stormy thundering mountain range needs it's own weather, opposite the dry burning desert.

Procedurally generated maps, such as minecraft generates, can do away with zones.  Take that basic concept and add more deapth and variety to what sorts of terrains and structures can spawn and you could have worlds that are effectively infinite in size and range of difficulties.

Originally posted by maplestone

Procedurally generated maps, such as minecraft generates, can do away with zones.  Take that basic concept and add more deapth and variety to what sorts of terrains and structures can spawn and you could have worlds that are effectively infinite in size and range of difficulties.

Refer to the "what is possible in a game IRL" pie chart - yes you could do that but unless you want all your users to be expected to have a super computer, the graphics (like minecraft) are not going to be "up to par."

 I like your idea OP but it would not be fun for someone that comes in two years after the games release.  I think the best way to get rid of "zones" is to take away levels and scale monsters by HP pools and programmed abilities (kind of what you were saying but static to that area range) for larger monsters as you progress to continue having level encounters.

 The other option is what GW2 is doing where there are still "zones" but you are tailor fit to them (e.g. leveled down) upon arriving so you never "outgrow" the areas of a gameworld.

 I do think games should have dynamic monster placement and migration like Ryzom.  In a level based game having scalable areas and migrating mobs would be fantastic IMO.

Edit: Even if you scale monsters across the whole game world you'd still want some sort of "boss" monsters.  Everything else would just have differing attacks and patterns.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

 

Many pve games have Zones. You have the starting zone, you have the lvl 20-30 zone and as you level, you move through the zones with little reason to go back to the previous zone unless a quests asks you to go back and talk to an NPC that is in a preveious zone

I don't see this as a problem. I for one don't want to revisit old areas I've already seen. I'm more thanhappy to go through it just once.

It served its purpose

To be honest, I don't even understand why it's being brought up. Is it because once people reach max level, they no longer have 100% of the boxed content to progress in? If it somehow devalues the price you pay since you only play 30% of the content later on?

Originally posted by BadSpock

Refer to the "what is possible in a game IRL" pie chart - yes you could do that but unless you want all your users to be expected to have a super computer, the graphics (like minecraft) are not going to be "up to par."

I think you vastly overestimate the computing power required to generate and populate terrain maps.  I'm not talking about allowing every block of the game to be dynamically manipulated like minecraft does, I'm just talking about taking basic zone maps and constructing them on the fly.  I used to write programs to create and populate random wilderness maps for my pencil and paper games 20 years ago, so I think that the computers of today can handle it.

(aside: if you try Diablo3 when it comes out, you may notice it randomly generates large chunks of its dungeon content using geomorphs and layers of randomly-added features/events)

I've been discussing this kind of idea with all my MMO friends lately. I think one of the reasons "they" have zones is because of PvP, they want everyone of certain levels to all be in the same area so they can fight and not grief.

But, I would also love to see a less zone like atmosphere. Imagine as a low level coming across a mountain full of minotaurs, you find some of the outter camps and caves to be full of MOBs your level, representing the lowlings of the minotaur. If you're not careful you might venture too far in or up the mountain and run into the higher level warrior minotaur. Basically it would give you that feeling of "someday I'll be back to explore the rest of this." Like still have some named bosses for low levels to kill but they can't get to everything. Or if it's a game with flying mounts the higher level stuff could simply require you flying up to it, something you couldn't do as a lowbie.

I love any idea that makes these games feel more like a world. And having that looming high level castle, or dungeon, or mountain casting  a shadow over you as you collect rat tails definitely helps with that.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

I would love to see more open world pve games, however there are very few of them out there.

 Can you clarify that? For example, what isn't open about WoW's game world?

Many pve games have Zones. You have the starting zone, you have the lvl 20-30 zone and as you level, you move through the zones with little reason to go back to the previous zone unless a quests asks you to go back and talk to an NPC that is in a preveious zone.

 The problem there is level disparity, not zones. Do away with levelso r greatly reduce the disparity and you can have a much more free flow from region to region.

The problem with this is, we have very large worlds but we play in very small areas. Sometimes the Developers will give you a reason to go back, such as achievements: Didn't do a Dungeon? Go back and get the achievement. But for the most part you just play in the zone fit's your current level.

 Right.

I think that one way to get around having zones would be creatures and NPC's that leveled. A wolf kills a Deer, it might gain in skill points or expirience points. A Goblin works at the forge, he might get stronger and have better armor. A Dragon and a Bear get into a battle, who ever wins would be stronger.

 Great idea for a single player game or an MMO where everyone levels up together and no one new joins after the first month. Otherwise, isn't the guy that tries to join a couple months down the road kinda screwed?

Areas that are populated by players would kill more of the creatures and keep their level or skills low. Out of the way places might end up with Super creatures that are very powerful. Thus you would never quite know what areas are safe and which areas weren't, and the areas that are "Safe" might change thus keeping the world fresh.

 Doable, but would be either easily gamed or dev-regulated - pick your poison. :)

Basically I am tired of stagnent worlds and would love to see different ways of doing things in the MMO world. I would love it if games new AAA games would also incorporate some of the ideas presented in Wurm or in Xion as a way of keeping the world  from getting too repetitive. 

The ability to terraform is another topic entirely and independent of whether or not there are zones.

Why can't we have questing and the ability to chop down a tree? Why do we have to have zones? Can't we incorporate Ideas that were presented in Uo7 such as NPC's with routines instead of having the quest giver just standing in the same spot everytime you walk by?

The ability to affect the environment is another topic entirely and independent of whether or not there are zones.

Maybe creatures and monsters that leveled or increased in skills and NPC's with their own routines isn't the answer but it might be a start.

Sounds great in a single player game, but how are you going to handle that in a region that both a Level 1 and a level 100 have to use? One solution is instancing, but since this thread is about doing away with zones, i doubt instances would be aviable solution for you. :)

You hit one of the biggest pitfalls in 'great MMO idea' generation - it's based on a static snapshot of time.  Take a look back at the idea and walk through a couple of months of it. Then assess the new player experience in this future state of the game.

If what you are now picturing is this wonderful, dangerous environment where the veteran players look after and protect the young ones as they venture forth to carve their empire in this much more powerful and foreboding world of mystery and creativity, then throw out the MMO idea and work on a plan for world peace because it will be just as fuitile but at least somewhat productive.

If what you are picturing now is a horrible, unpleasant mess that is far from your original vision then you're on the right track and you've made the first step toward refining your ideas into a more engaging and much more realistic experience.

As I understand it, you don't care if the map is seamless, which is what some people are talking about when they complain about zones.  Rather, you're saying you don't like it when everyone goes here at level 10, then there at level 20, etc.

In that case, I'd say you should start by looking at games that have already done exactly that.  One example is A Tale in the Desert.  With no combat, there's no need to worry about mobs in particular areas being too strong or too weak for you.

Another example is Puzzle Pirates.  Enemy ships that will attack you are spawned specificially to attack you and will ignore other players.  The stronger your ship is, the stronger the enemy ships that will attack you.  And the game will adjust its judgment of how strong your ship is by saying that for each battle you win, you're stronger than it previously supposed (and conversely, weaker each time you lose) until it resets when you put into port.

There's also Uncharted Waters Online.  Mobs do have levels, but they don't entirely correspond to player levels, so knowing that a mob is level 40 doesn't mean that you should be level 40 to attack it.  Once you get all of the port permits, you may reasonably need to go anywhere in the world from then onward, regardless of your level.  But usually when you travel like that, it's for reasons of trade or adventuring, not combat.

What do all of those games have in common?  The obvious thing is that they're sandboxes.  But also important is that most of the time, when you go somewhere, it's not to grind mobs to gain levels.  The reason games zone their content as you describe is that the game is almost entirely about combat, and is also designed to make players get stronger as they level up--and thus need stronger mobs to fight.  Mix in stronger mobs with weaker mobs and players have to wait until they can handle the stronger mobs before going into the zone.

+1   Great explanation, Quizzical.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Basically I am tired of stagnent worlds and would love to see different ways of doing things in the MMO world. I would love it if games new AAA games would also incorporate some of the ideas presented in Wurm or in Xion as a way of keeping the world  from getting too repetitive. 

The ability to terraform is another topic entirely and independent of whether or not there are zones.

 

I don't think that's entirely fair to say.  The key complaint of the OP is the fact that is that in most leveling games, once you have leveled past a zone, it's now static dead space on the map.  Phasing out the old levelling content when you are done with it and replacing it with a dynamic or player-influenced endgame overlay is an example solution.

edit: oops, Quizzical beat me to it with a different angle.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Basically I am tired of stagnent worlds and would love to see different ways of doing things in the MMO world. I would love it if games new AAA games would also incorporate some of the ideas presented in Wurm or in Xion as a way of keeping the world  from getting too repetitive. 

The ability to terraform is another topic entirely and independent of whether or not there are zones.

 

I don't think that's entirely fair to say.  The key complaint of the OP is the fact that is that in most leveling games, once you have leveled past a zone, it's now static dead space on the map.  Phasing out the old levelling content when you are done with it and replacing it with a dynamic or player-influenced endgame overlay is an example solution.

edit: oops, Quizzical beat me to it with a different angle.

I think the FF games address that issue pretty well with having one character that can change classes at will, and not being so limited in the crafting skills you can learn. Even when you've outleveled an area on one class, you inevitably end up returning to it to level a different class, or to gather materials for a new crafting skill you may have overlooked before.

Those high level critters that are occasionally strewn into low level zones...there were far more of them in XIV than in XI...probably too many, but it XI, at least, it kept players on their toes and taught people to be wary of their surroundings. They create memorable moments, too. I'll never forgt my first encounter with Bloodtear Baldurf (giant level 50+ ram that very rarely spawned in a level 10~ish zone). I was more in awe than I was upset that I got pwned by that thing, particularly because I WAS level 50 when it completely violated me.

If people get upset over something like that, maybe they're taking the game too seriously and need to lighten up a bit.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Don't add them?

is it that easy? xD

The reason why there are zones is because content is tiered.

The reason why content is tiered is because of character progression. 

In single player games, one way to eliminate tiered zones is to have the content rubber band (self adjust) to match the player.  That doesn't work so well if multiple players are in the same area.

In multiplayer games, one workaround is to rubber band the players to match the zone.  It works, but it complicates the concept of progression which is central to an RPG.

Another workaround is to reduce progression so a max level player isn't much stronger than a low level player, and both can do most of the same content.  A problem with this is that it makes progression feel very slow, which contradicts what might be typical player desire of progressing quickly (fast reward).

One thing I've been kicking around is to eliminate progression entirely and turn the game into something resembling a persistant character first person shooter.  Roll your character, grab your gear, off you go.  Would people play a game where the only rewards are cosmetic (character looks, housing, etc)?  Unfortunately this also hoses the need for farming, crafting, etc which undermines other areas of gameplay.

I really don't think progression is avoidable in an RPG.

Well lets see there was Ashrons call that had a simi leveless world and EQ:OA which was a semless world with mobs of varying lvls in low to high level areas is it possible to make a mmo that had a random generated game no not gonna happen for a while unless someone makes a game like GW2 semless and any area you where in lvled to you this might work but it would have to work both ways up and down and then you could have a semless world with adventure a plenty just be harder for a lvl 5 or 6 to venture to a lvl 75 area but they could and it would just be tougher for them in said area.

Now if a company did that and took out masive gear stats like we have in most games but had some that all leveled out at max lvl and then make dungeon gear just a little better and other gear the same the game could work. For both progression and vise versa but would be better if gear for your real level dropped off mobs no matter what lvl area you were in kinda like GW2 does this way your rewarded for said mob and this way even if you have friends in high lvl areas you could still join them.

Make traveling interesting as like mounts and such no super fast travel but portals to other areas or towns that unlock when you find them. This would help I hated EQ:OA when I had to port to a town and still run 40 miles to get to my group. But I do like GW2 portal system it works and sometimes having faster travel does make up for lost time. I dont like standing around waiting as much as the next guy but I hate running or even riding  to someplace thats 25 to 50 miles away from the nearest teleport because of making others wait.

Its called unlimited detail grpahics engine... an austrilian company has been working on this for some time... its renders the entire world with everything in it at once. Which means no loading screens at all. No distnce rendering and it will take less for a GPU to run. Heres a video to make it clearer to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8lqK8K_JWs

Go skill based and have it such that when players create a new character they're around 5 hours from a "maxium power tier"/"one specific min/max".

Almost no reason to have zoning as the developer only designs for difficulty for the game.   And further developement based on the player choosing to approach a new min/max skill set for their character.