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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why not add risk/reward to EVERY exiting MMORPG? It can be done without upsetting the current playerbase.

19 posts found
  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

 
OP  5/04/12 9:34:29 AM#1

Hello MMORPG.com!

 

I wanted to share with all of you what I look for in a game when it comes to PVP. Its actually so simple that something could be implemented in many games today which would convince me to play them and there are many different games that I like to play for different reasons but PVP is my top priority in having a good time. I am hoping that games coming out in the future can satisfy me in these areas but for the most part I can expect that they will not and have been stuck with games that are not as populated as they used to be or simply do not exist.

 

There are a few different types of PVP games that I crave:

 

Adrenaline Rush! - This is something that I think can only be felt from playing a FFA PVP game in an open seamless world without instances and I also think that fighting should be primarily based on player-skill. If there was another strict ruleset in place so that dying once would set me back several days or more instead of full-looting than that may create a similar satisfactory feeling but it must have a strong risk vs reward optional. The more options during combat the better and the more precise every action needs to be the better. Having to be aware of the surroundings and predict a few steps ahead is also important in this type of game. Instance-free is important due to pride so that every win is worth that much more and online fame in the community is more likely to shine. The more buttons available to press the better so that I am more likely to break a sweat during a heated battle. This type of game should be realistic feeling so that I feel immersed in a fantasy world and large enough or sandbox enough that the story of what happens to my character is my own and forever remains my own. I want to lose myself in this world and I want every gaming session to be unpridictable due to other players (or GMs) activities which may surprise me at any given time. Darkfall currently provides the biggest adrenaline rush that I have come across in a game but it wont be around forever. I wish that this game had fatalities like Age of Conan! Its pretty cool that this game can also be like playing Risk if being a general of a large clan because territorial conflicts bring whole new strategies to the table. The future of these types of games is very intriguing!

 

Sweaty challenge - If a game has non-stop instant action that requires all of my immediate attention during every second than I may break a sweat. I prefer this kind of game at times but it doesn't seem to exist as much as it used to. Bunny-hopping helps, FPS gameplay is prefered, custom classes with unique roles can make or break a game, minimal character development or grind, instant respawn, bragging rights available somehow (total kills shown at the end of the match among other rewards?), and fun objectives that do not force people into playing certain roles if they do not want to so that going off on my own to kill people instead of going with the group should always be an option with this type of game since I do not want to feel like my team is losing because I am not doing some required thing at every moment to compete with the enemy. Simple battlefields may satisfy all of these needs so instances would be good. Wolfenstein - Enemy Territory is a good example of this kind of game and has at times covered me in my own sweat as I struggled to remain the top killer. I have been getting into Battlefield 3 but its still not as fun as Wolfenstein was for me for some reason so hopefully a game will come out someday like BF3 but with bunny-hopping and cooler mission objectives.

 

Objective-free team vs team matches - This type of game is a little more laid back than those listed above because tab-targeting and auto-attack is allowed. Most of this game should be about customizing the characters build and cooperative strategy to defeat the opposing team. Think of Guildwars Random Arena battles but harder since every PVP title earned must be maintained. I do not like the fact that you can earn a title in Guildwars inevitably by farming and wish that PVP titles were difficult to maintain. I would not like having objectives in this type of game as much and would rather just kill or be killed. The maps should be simple and small. Compared to the other types of games listed above this would probably be a very kick-back game but again if there was risk vs reward involved than I am much more likely to be at the edge of my seat. The amount of customization that Guildwars allows makes this type of game worth it to me. Being able to create a unique build that becomes part of a unique team is what this type of game should be focused on. I hope that there will always be a game like this to play but its not nearly as fun if new patches are not being introduced often because its my favorite thing to be the first person to discover OP builds before anyone else. This game should remain instant action and grind-free. Its hard to see anything replacing Guildwars in this manner but I still hope that it will happen so that I can experience being the first to start trends all over again. I am afraid that GW2 will not have what I want in this area but I will be trying it since I loved the first so much.

 

Launch-populated Gank Fest - This type of gameplay seems to happen only when a FFA PVP game launches and seems to have a strong following that go from game to game as they are released. This is also the type of gameplay that prevents most people from trying FFA PVP games. Again most games lack that Risk vs Reward so it usually gets boring fast but nonetheless I still have a lot of fun when PVP games are released because its fun to be ahead of people and experience things like soloing a full group. I have never enjoyed griefing the same person over and over again unless they were talking mad shizzle and deserved it or something but have had a lot of joy in wiping out lower level players in general or defending lower level players from other gankers in good fun (the more outnumbered I am means the more pride I have when I win if I can win). I have been known for hooking up people or giving tips after wiping them so not a total jack-ass but its pretty fun to prey on victims in an open world endlessly (which is usually only possible during the first couple months after a game is launched). If its a themepark than I definitely prefer something like Vanguard with an open world over something like Age of Conan since there is usually only one entrance/exit to everything which is annoying in any FFA PVP setting unless you are part of the zerg although the first month of AoC was fun as hell! Yeah I am a loser and did nothing other than camp the Tortage Underhalls with a naked chick by the name of Lezbow that no one would allow in their guild but with that type of game that's all it will do for me because it lacked reasons to PVP and all of the later PVE areas had zergs camping the entrances which I couldn't face solo when they were double my level .. . Tortage Underhalls was awesome fun though but to hell with being forced to PVE when I had Tortage Underhalls! The Ranger was so overpowered that I claimed the place whenever I played pretty much. I am thinking of going back since it became F2P if it will allow me to twink-out at Tortage again. Anyways, this type of gameplay is usually only fun during the first month or two after a FFA PVP game (or server) is released which is actually not all that often. Hopefully a game will someday be released that provides this feeling constantly. I am not sure how it could be done . ..... prehaps if there was a perma-death and the game was one of the funnest out there? Its hard to imagine what it would take to keep new players incoming but most games are not worth it to me when it comes to grinding to the end level and then grinding for gear only to compete evenly when I can run around and be king of lower-levels while they are populated. Its difficult to PVE until the end level when I do not even know if it will be worth it and no matter how fun it is, I will not play it for years unless it has some sort of risk vs reward system (a real one and it doesnt even have to matter to those who PVE). Also, why is it that so many games force me to PVE until the end and then grind gear to be competitive in PVP after the game has been out for some time? Don't they understand that some people just want to PVP but do not have time to do it in all these games (esp. when its not even as fun as it is when its released)?

 

So these are the types of PVP games that I mostly prefer. I hope that more games come out in the future with something to offer me so that I am not stuck with a couple games along with playing the release of a bunch of shitty games. Risk vs Reward is very important to me and it doesn't even have to be something that potentially involves griefing .. .. since there could be a title or score for bragging rights alone (that was extremely difficult to maintain or its worthless!) that would be plenty motivation for me to get the rush that I look for. Why don't more games do this? Don't they want me to play it to the end?

 

I hope that some developers out there reads this and sees that I would pay a monthly sub in a heartbeat for many games out there if they simply had something difficult to compete for. I would even pay for several games at once! Its sad to me that games do not serve me in this way and I think that it ends up hurting them in the long run because they always get the usual rush of PVPers at the beginning of every launch for a couple months who simply don't have the time to play it out until the end but would pay them the same amount of money if there was a reason worth staying. Instead new-comers are griefed more by players becoming bored with a game that is trying to force them to chase some PVE carrot so that they can someday play the endgame that may not even be worth it.

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

5/04/12 11:18:21 AM#2

Serious question here. I've noted that you seem to be all bout PvP.

So, why aren't you playing Darkfall? What are they lacking for you, or what's wrong with it with what you want?

Once upon a time....

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

 
OP  5/04/12 11:50:08 AM#3
Originally posted by Amaranthar

Serious question here. I've noted that you seem to be all bout PvP.

So, why aren't you playing Darkfall? What are they lacking for you, or what's wrong with it with what you want?

I do play Darkfall although my account is having problems right now. I thought I renewed it but guess I have to contact support.

I do not have enough time to play Darkfall as much as I would like to and sometimes I am in the mood for something else (especially right after dying and losing a bunch of stuff) but yeah for my main game its definitely that one. Whats the deal did you think that the purpose of Darkfall was to rid the griefers out of the wholesome games? lol jk

 

I wish that Wolfenstein was still around . ...! I miss that game so much but can only find bots to play with.

 

Guildwars is a totally awesome game and I play RA often but what ticks me off is the fact that you gain PVP titles from farming and that there is no risk in losing those titles to other players. I wish that they had some sort of way for me to compete for a PVP title without having to farm points mindlessly. It doesn't make any difference if I gain the points three times faster than other people if they have had time to farm points. Kill/death ratio doesn't matter. Any noob could play RA until they reach a high ranking title by leaching off of others. This wouldn't be true if titles could be taken from others and thats fair and how it works in the real world. Why should some kid have a better title than me simply because he stays at home and plays video games all day? They have lots of little kid potty mouths in RA as well and many act all leet but I would love to see what would happen if titles had to be maintained.

 

There are many titles on the horizon that I am looking forward to trying but really think that it sucks that competition in most MMORPGs is meant for people who have no life. I think that the more skilled person deserves the PVP title over someone farming points or leeching off of other players, don't you? What makes people play the same MMORPG title for years anyways? Raids? Not for me. The main reason for obtaining gear for me would be to see how it works against other players. Everytime that I have played MMORPGs for years was mostly because I always had something to work toward that was very challenging. I have played games that were completely broken in many ways but totally had lots of fun with the rush of knowing that I could not die to PVP at all or lose weeks of play. This can be done without real risk. It can be done by a stupid number that nobody cares about but the competitive PVP types. Do you think that this would be a bad thing in your game? Every game could use something like that . .... would give me something to do!

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

5/04/12 12:07:03 PM#4

Naa, I want a Sandbox game that's very worldly. I want that "realistic" base with fantasy stacked on top of that base. So numbers mean very little to me, the experience of playing in the game world and trying to make a place in that world is what I'm looking for.

I like PvP, if there's meaning to it inside that world that I want. I don't like PvPing for numbers or status coded in the game. I don't like PvP just for the sake of PvPing (although game/player sponsored tourneys in a "realistic" (makes sense inside the game world) are cool. I especially don't like Arenas for the game's PvP (just totally unrelated to the world and meaningless). But I also don't want to see "worldly PvP" everywhere, anywhere, all the time. Or even close to that.

I'm thinking currently the best solution for "world PvP" for all in a game would be heavy and real punishment to the characters that PK, but allow warfare and also player made factions tied to a general game faction system (as in deities and guild allegiance to). And social rules, such as no warfare (even if you are at war) inside NPC cities and their immediate area of control.

 

Once upon a time....

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

 
OP  5/04/12 9:31:01 PM#5

For games that do not have risk vs reward (most MMORPGs) they could easily add it without upsetting the already existing player-base. A game does not need to have full-loot PVP to satisfy an inch that many of us crave. Like I said this is easily done by having titles that can be taken by other people (instead of gear or coin) or a score figured more by kill/death ratio instead of the amount of time spent farming PVP point.

 

Its not like it would even matter to many people in these already existing games if there was a score or title that had no purpose other than for PVP bragging rights but for people like me it would be fun as hell to work at earning a title and maintaining it for as long as I can from good performance instead of time spent farming.

 

Surely I am not the only one who would like to see something like this in every MMORPG?

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5736

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

5/05/12 1:19:19 AM#6

If you think adding risk & reward systems don't take away from the game then you are wrong. Ofcrouse they do. Not everyone gets the adrenaline rush whatever is at stake, and many will be put off by the penalty.

And personally I think high risk ruins PvP. People become cowards, and proper PvP withers and dies. Its all cat 'n' mouse and backstabbing after that. You can spend more time avoiding battle or chasing someone than actually fighting. Not fun for many people.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  cosy

Newshound

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 3306

EvE Rules #491 you should never, ever attack Russians on winter months

5/05/12 1:44:33 AM#7

some ppl like to relax and play a bit and if is needed alt tab anytime to do other things when you are in PvP you cant alt tab

PD:EvEisNot4WoWkids
BestSigEver :P

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

 
OP  5/05/12 3:32:39 AM#8

But if its only for bragging rights why would anyone oppose it when it could just be ignored??

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2369

5/05/12 3:41:54 AM#9

I would agree to a game with relatively safe areas like EvE. But forget about all out FFA PvP. It would be cool if there were areas with less security but more valuable materials.

 

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2369

5/05/12 3:46:20 AM#10

Also, in games like Darkfall, the more advanced players tend to risk very little as they have a lot of stored wealth whereas the newer players risk more since what they have is more valuable to them, and they also stand little chance against a veteran player. They could be potentially rewarded pretty good for taking out a veteran player but the chances are slim to none.

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

 
OP  5/05/12 6:41:45 AM#11

I am not asking for the current MMORPGs to change their PVP. If they have battlegrounds, instances, open world, FFA PVP, PVP instances, etc. it makes no difference to me if there is no risk vs reward. My point is that every MMORPG that is currently active could use some kind of system merely for bragging rights that awards performance over time to farm. Its not a difficult thing to implement. Even the most carebear games could do it. For me, it would make me want to try out games more because I think its fun to have something to compete for so that I am more at the edge of my seat during whatever PVP that they have in the game.

 

Guildwars could have a title that you take from others (they do have competitions for HA and stuff for top guilds or whatever but I would like to see something like this for RA since glad points can be mindlessly farmed). AoC would be a lot funner if there was risk vs reward! If someone doesn't care about competing to be the best PVPer than they can simply ignore this title or score.

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

5/07/12 1:02:21 PM#12

Because risk/reward is deemed adequate for most, and it is too much work/costs to have a special version?

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

5/07/12 1:19:09 PM#13
Originally posted by jusomdude

I would agree to a game with relatively safe areas like EvE. But forget about all out FFA PvP. It would be cool if there were areas with less security but more valuable materials.

 

There are no safe areas in EVE.  The "safe" areas of EVE have the most player deaths.  Any noob in a tech 1 fit destroyer can kill a mining barge in high sec before Concord gets them.  A tech 2 destroyer can kill a tech 2 hulk before concord gets there.  

On topic, I agree with the risk reward thing.  I wish more games would just design that into the game though.  Looting or gear destruction isn't really that big a deal if the game is designed around it.  Lose a ship in EVE and you can have another ready to go after just a quick trip to the market.  If you added player looting to WoW a whole lot of nerds would probably commit ritual suicide when they lost all the epics that they have sacrificed countless weekends of raiding to get.  The solution is to not design the game around gear progression, and simply have a sword be a sword.  There might be a slightly sharper sword, or a slightly faster sword, but really you just need a sword to competitive.  The Endgame would be about keeping your stuff and acquiring stuff from your (and your guild's) enemies.    Most companies would rather copy WoW and make failgames, but there is always hope with CCP.  World of Darkness hopefully will have this kind of mechanics and all the people that want this style of game but just can't be a spaceship will enjoy it. 

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  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/07/12 2:11:40 PM#14

I find the mentality of PvPers and competitive PvErs tends to be so loud and so toxic that they are impossible to ignore when mixed into the general communty.  So no thanks.

  helthros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/24/09
Posts: 1477

5/07/12 2:23:06 PM#15

Sorry friend, you normally produce fairly well thought out ideas (usually centered around Darkfall), but please reconsider spacing and pressing the 'Enter' key a few more types when you're typing a wall of text like that.

  Torik

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

5/07/12 2:33:52 PM#16
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

But if its only for bragging rights why would anyone oppose it when it could just be ignored??

If it is just for bragging rights then I would be all in favour of it.  I am big fan of playing games just for the challenge and to prove a point. 

Sadly I really do not see the PVPers accepting that non-PvP players are able to succeed in the game without being forced into PvP.   They will want rewards and features that affect the non-PvPers and the non-PvPers will not like that. 

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 3:35:30 PM#17

I had a hunch after my first week of darkfall that it would be a long time or never before a game would come out that could match it feature wise and that appears to still be the case.

a lot player who left complaining didnt really have many options to leave to worth talking much about. Others who left just thought they had the stomach for FFA pvp but really didnt.

I for one dont even like FFA pvp outside of war but I have a thick consitiution and just let that ride because the rest of the game was so much fun to me.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Classicstar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2548

5/07/12 3:53:13 PM#18

Ive started on Darktide AC1&2 and later lineage2 and Darkfall and there is only a small part that dont have any problem with penaltys its no big deal at all but it seems majority and my gues is 99% somehow can't handle penalty thats why games like Darkfall stay eather small or die out. Also those who dedicate themselfs playing PvP free for all games have a tendancy to cheat that was one of main problems with Darkfall cheating.

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  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 4:58:35 PM#19
Originally posted by Classicstar

Ive started on Darktide AC1&2 and later lineage2 and Darkfall and there is only a small part that dont have any problem with penaltys its no big deal at all but it seems majority and my gues is 99% somehow can't handle penalty thats why games like Darkfall stay eather small or die out. Also those who dedicate themselfs playing PvP free for all games have a tendancy to cheat that was one of main problems with Darkfall cheating.

there is a lot of truth to the statement of 'I work hard during the day if i wanted stress and high risk i wouldnt be playing a video game in the first place' statement.

 

That said, my best times in darkfall was during large scale battles, but the kind where we knew it was on, not random

Correlation does not imply causation