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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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214 posts found
  Karahandras

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1669

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

5/07/12 12:40:47 PM#101
Originally posted by adam_nox

This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

 

It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

+1

 

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 12:51:38 PM#102

I am starting to feel that the ESO annoucement is the best advertising Darkfall 1 & 2 could hope for.

I hope Zenimax keeps saying what is not possible in an MMO, its brilliant advertising.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 12:52:01 PM#103
Originally posted by adam_nox

This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

 

It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 12:54:23 PM#104
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by adam_nox

This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

 

It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 1:00:45 PM#105
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more (not to mention the mob grind). Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 1:04:12 PM#106
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more. Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

when talking about a feature one has to focus on the feature being discussed. Not how it all works in the game together.

Anyone who suggests that a tight adrenaline puming FPS style combat engine is not possible in an MMO simply doesnt know what they are talking about or liying.

When you start talking about, the game only focused on that, or, skills where not ballanced well etc that is a side note. not the key point.

The ONLY valid technical arguement to be frank is number of players in game at once, thats it

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 1:06:17 PM#107
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more. Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

when talking about a feature one has to focus on the feature being discussed. Not how it all works in the game together.

Anyone who suggests that a tight adrenaline puming FPS style combat engine is not possible in an MMO simply doesnt know what they are talking about or liying.

When you start talking about, the game only focused on that, or, skills where not ballanced well etc that is a side note. not the key point.

The ONLY valid technical arguement to be frank is number of players in game at once, thats it

Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 1:08:27 PM#108
Originally posted by Distopia

Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

let me make sure I understand this correctly.

The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

 

did I get that right?

or another way to say it is 'Darkfall combat engine didnt work because the game didnt have enough quests'

 

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 1:11:42 PM#109
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia

Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

let me make sure I understand this correctly.

The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

 

did I get that right?

 

 

No you didn't. I said I personally didn't like the combat, but the biggest problem I had with the game was that the game didn't seem to offer much more than PVP and mob grinding, and I think that has something to do with the time it took to get their combat to where it is.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

5/07/12 1:15:07 PM#110

To use an analogy for my feeling of what Zenimax has done here.....If this were football, with TESO, Zenimax is starting out at 1st & 10 with the ball on the 50 yard line....and what play do they call to start out... PUNT!

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 1:15:47 PM#111
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia

Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

let me make sure I understand this correctly.

The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

 

did I get that right?

 

 

No you didn't. I said I personally didn't like the combat, but the biggest problem I had with the game was that the game didn't seem to offer much more than PVP and mob grinding, and I think that has something to do with the time it took to get their combat to where it is.

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 1:22:06 PM#112
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 1:27:53 PM#113
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

Yes we know that.

in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

THAT we all know.

Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

Correlation does not imply causation

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

5/07/12 1:29:02 PM#114

I hated the combat in Skyrim.  Playing a mage was pretty annoying since you constantly had to pause the game to cast more than 2 spells.  I don't think making a combat system like that would work in an MMORPG mainly because it sucks.  I understand why they want to come up with something new and they should.  I just worry that they will pull a Bioware and make an extremely bad game like SWTOR.  If they are creative, and they actually decide not to clone WoW, then maybe they can come up with a great game.  My money is on TES online being a crappy WoW clone like SWTOR.  However, I would be happy to be proven wrong. 

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15957

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/07/12 1:30:59 PM#115
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

Yes we know that.

in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

THAT we all know.

Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  biogerm

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 171

5/07/12 1:38:50 PM#116
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by greyed-out
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by tatbounty

guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

Multiplayer shooters like War Inc. Battlezone offer both third person play and first person play.

They dont seem too concerned about the ballancing issues.

Especially since you would have the -choice- and if it turns out that TP is prefferable for PVP, everybody is still on the same footing with TP, because everyone can use it in PVP, but in PVE you could still have immersion if you want. Not everyone will want to PVP.

There are no ballancing issues with this, especially if you take turn-based or roll-based combat into account with tab-target.

Tribes ascend also have FP and TP, and most of the time you will be in FP, id say like 90% of the time.

 

no balance issues with that.

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  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/07/12 1:42:30 PM#117
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

Yes we know that.

in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

THAT we all know.

Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

its called sequitur.

normal conversation flow isnt like this

person 1: I think darkfall combat engine is great and I dont see why an engine that like that couldnt work in an MMO

person 2: no it would work becuase I didnt like darkfall that much becuase it was too focused on combat.

so a FPS combat engine in an MMO DOES work, someone not wanting to hire the staff to do it is a different conversation

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2382

5/07/12 1:48:07 PM#118
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

Yes we know that.

in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

THAT we all know.

Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

I'll take that a bit further and say that the front desk at Zenimax has more programming and design skills than the entire AV team.  =)

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2088

5/07/12 1:48:29 PM#119
Originally posted by BigHatLogan

I hated the combat in Skyrim.  Playing a mage was pretty annoying since you constantly had to pause the game to cast more than 2 spells.  I don't think making a combat system like that would work in an MMORPG mainly because it sucks.  I understand why they want to come up with something new and they should.  I just worry that they will pull a Bioware and make an extremely bad game like SWTOR.  If they are creative, and they actually decide not to clone WoW, then maybe they can come up with a great game.  My money is on TES online being a crappy WoW clone like SWTOR.  However, I would be happy to be proven wrong. 

About skyrim combat, part of mage woes had to do more with the inability to craft your own spells, which in oblivion you'd only need one or two damage spells to be effective, so it worked well, plus it was a little faster to switch (at least on consoles). 

I think both spell crafting and the ability to have a better hotkey system (I like on consoles where you hold a shoulder button to bring up an 8 direction menu, it's so fast and intuitive, every rpg should use it) would fix the combat issues, which show that the issue isn't really skyrim combat per se, but a kind of meta gameplay involving the UI, so not particularly relevant to this convo.

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2382

5/07/12 1:49:51 PM#120
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

lets try to focus if we can

And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

Yes we know that.

in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

THAT we all know.

Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

its called sequitur.

normal conversation flow isnt like this

person 1: I think darkfall combat engine is great and I dont see why an engine that like that couldnt work in an MMO

person 2: no it would work becuase I didnt like darkfall that much becuase it was too focused on combat.

so a FPS combat engine in an MMO DOES work, someone not wanting to hire the staff to do it is a different conversation

 

This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

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