Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by cyress8

Originally posted by ForumPvP

yea, GW2 sounds to be exactly that,when theres someone screaming ,all i can do is help him and give him what he wants,i cant do anything else, I cant give him a lesson.

 What lesson could you give him?  You will teach him what exactly by not helping him?  In real life people help each other to make things go smoother.  You learn lessons by being helped by others in the first place.  You were helped by your mother and father to teach you right from wrong.  You were helped by teachers to learn mulitple things.  You were helped by your co workers on how to do your job properly.  Etc...  You learn by actually being helped by people all the time.  Only lesson I can see you giving is teaching the guy that you will be a dick ingame and should not expect help from you.  Hell, to even avoid you.  Which makes you anti-social.

Hell, this does not even just encompass GW2.  This is real life in general.  You not helping and being nonchalant towards everything will just not make you any friends.

Lesson simulator v1.0

GW2

- Nittami  -Spoonfed Squad- " help me with this imba quest ForumPvP,you need this and i need this.

- ForumPvP  - well ,not interested to help you but thanks to Anet ,we are in this together.

- ForumPvP - puts of the fire with water bucket and gains 100 exp

--Nittami -Spoonfed Squad - gains 200 exp ,ding!

 

some other game

- Nittami  -Spoonfed Squad- " help me with this imba quest ForumPvP,you need this and i need this.

- ForumPvP  - well ,not interested to help you but thanks to my sword,you are soon in pieces.

-ForumPvP -hits Nittami -Spoonfed Squad- Critical strike 1990dmg,gains 1000 exp Ding!

- ForumPvP - puts of the fire with water bucket and gains 100 exp.

 

 

What you're looking for is Darkfall or EVE. Those games let you openly gank whoever you want, wherever you want.  Both of those games cater to the asshat mentality.   Guild Wars doesn't do that.  Guild Wars,...being that guild is in the title, is all about teamwork and social playing.  This game is not for your kind.  Move along.

To the OP,

Best post on MMORPG of 2012. +1 for you good sir.

I don't know, whenever you collect a large group of people in one place, even in a virtual place, the whole moral fiber tends to follow the lowest common denominator not the brightest example.

GW2 is simply removing the need for some of that lowest-common-denominator human-nature that forces competition into an environment where it should be about cooperation (PvE)

Yet again, 50% of GW2 is fully and truly about competition.

I don't see what the huge problem is that the PvE 50% is anti-competition.

Originally posted by BadSpock

I don't know, whenever you collect a large group of people in one place, even in a virtual place, the whole moral fiber tends to follow the lowest common denominator not the brightest example.

GW2 is simply removing the need for some of that lowest-common-denominator human-nature that forces competition into an environment where it should be about cooperation (PvE)

Yet again, 50% of GW2 is fully and truly about competition.

I don't see what the huge problem is that the PvE 50% is anti-competition.

This is one of those rare times I was actually confused about what you were trying to get across.

Are you saying the PvE game is 50% competitive? I mean I know you are trying to make a point about the design behind cooperation, but for whatever reason, I'm having a hard time understanding where you are going with this particular post.

To me, so far, PvE has appeared to be, at least in practice, a 100% cooperative experience.

And then there is WvW, BG style combat, and then later, tournaments which might be the other half you are talking about?

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by BadSpock

I don't know, whenever you collect a large group of people in one place, even in a virtual place, the whole moral fiber tends to follow the lowest common denominator not the brightest example.

GW2 is simply removing the need for some of that lowest-common-denominator human-nature that forces competition into an environment where it should be about cooperation (PvE)

Yet again, 50% of GW2 is fully and truly about competition.

I don't see what the huge problem is that the PvE 50% is anti-competition.

And then there is WvW, BG style combat, and then later, tournaments which might be the other half you are talking about?

This.

The PvE side, roughly "half" of the game is based totally on cooperation, not competition.

The PvP side, roughly the other "half" of the game is obviously based on competition (though there are cooperative elements in team building, etc.)

Sorry, still on first cup of joe.

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

You have no inner desire to kill. Nobody has. The lust to kill ingame is a simply let-off-steam from problems in RL, if you enjoy it.

I do not enjoy killing player-pixels ingame and I do not hate it. I also do not do it unconscious, I just have my moral standards and so should you (plural, generaly ment).

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

You have no inner desire to kill. Nobody has. The lust to kill ingame is no excuse.

Why do you think nobody has an inner desire to kill? Is it because you don't?

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

You have no inner desire to kill. Nobody has. The lust to kill ingame is no excuse.

Why do you think nobody has an inner desire to kill? Is it because you don't?

Nobody has an inner desire to kill. Killing a being requires a lack of empathy and compassion. When people kill in real-life (excluding war!) then this has a long road behind it, a mental one. Most of them are depressions.

If you think for a longer time or meditate on the ill-will of humans, you come to a conclusion that everybody is innocent within himself. Every problem has a beginning in the growing-up of a being. Tho this does not mean you can excuse murder. Never.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

You have no inner desire to kill. Nobody has. The lust to kill ingame is no excuse.

Why do you think nobody has an inner desire to kill? Is it because you don't?

Anyone with an inner desire to kill in RL should immediately seek professional help. People enjoy fantasy because it's a break from the norm. You can't have swords and srocery without some kind of death and destruction.

OP - Awesome post, never thought about the games like that before. They do all seem to encourage the asshat in most people, myself included at times unfortunately.

Originally posted by Sp1dersbane

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by palulalula

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Originally posted by Meleagar
what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now?

Mate, this is the fundament of our economy these days. Ellbows, ellbows, ellbows.

Social-skills dont bring you money. Compasion in our economy? Yeah..

Since now all MMOs and games in general forced you to live by the teachings of our economy, which lived by the old: Survival of the fittest.

We have noticed in the past 2 years with the crash, that we cant continue this. And this is only the start.

 

But what has this to do with MMOs or games in general?

Developers are just normal people, they are influenced by the same things as most of you people are :) and this is the media. Developers can bring up the craziest fantasy stories, but in their main-core they are still human somewhat. This I mean by 'influence'. They sit on a round table and discuss things that hold a game together "How we are gonna solve that, so John Doe does understand it?" - and so forth.

 

I wonder how we speak about this issue in 10years.

Will we still have games which main-focus is TO KILL ?

I hope not.

 

Well, better to kill in games then in real life

You have no inner desire to kill. Nobody has. The lust to kill ingame is no excuse.

Why do you think nobody has an inner desire to kill? Is it because you don't?

Anyone with an inner desire to kill in RL should immediately seek professional help. People enjoy fantasy because it's a break from the norm. You can't have swords and srocery without some kind of death and destruction.

 

OP - Awesome post, never thought about the games like that before. They do all seem to encourage the asshat in most people, myself included at times unfortunately.

Yeah... I was just wondering how someone could think the inner desire to kill didn't exist. 

But I read his post and it was mostly hopeful thinking without anything substantial.

Games cant lead people to become violent but if they do its because THEY have some kind of problem not the game....

With GW2 I can finally be my true self, kind respectful and considerate of others. It never was my intent in the first place to allow other MMOs turn me into something I'am not, that rude and inconsiderate and disrespectful, when that happens I found myself drifting from that game and in isolation. Thank you GW2 for allowing me to be my self again.

Originally posted by SoulOfRaziel

Games cant lead people to become violent but if they do its because THEY have some kind of problem not the game....

Let's tone down the discussion a bit. As I know that violent game censorship is a very emotional hot spot for gamers. Lets bring it back to somewaht on topic and talk about socially accepted behavior (not that we can all agree what this is but general consensus might suffice). 

I certianly can write edutainment software to teach reading, physics, mathmatics or any subject really. So I doubt anyone would disagree that there could exist software that teaches sociopathic tendencies. You could argue that it wouldn't take since any sane and well adjusted person would reject the teaching/programming. So then it's a question of how prevassive the software is that teachs the bad behavior  and how susceptable the student is to learning it. 

I would suspect that the younger the student/player the more open they are to learning bad behavior given that they have experienced less socially acceptable behavior over thier lifetimes (less reinforcement up till that point).

Given that, it is possible that games that have encouraged and rewarded bad behavior were in fact having a negative impact on certian individuals (training them). You certianly can argue that it is the individuals (or parents in the case of minors) responsibility to avoid such games. And you might ague that no game exists today that encourages negative behavior enough to have a true impact. But it would be hard to argue that it couldn't exist.

One thing I miss and really don't miss is being able to horse around with my friends and drop a duel flag. being able to test your skills out on friends was always a bonus that I will miss, but it was so annoying having random people drop duel flags rapidly while you're trying to organize or in a quest screen reading something. I do like the cooperative theme GW2 has brought though.

And here I thought (from the title) this thread would be about existential revelations...

Originally posted by Meleagar

In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers.  They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.

This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?

The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics.  Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs.

Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs.

Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as  victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves. 

OP, I take it you are being serious?

Right, frankly, in that case you've been doing something wrong when MMOing!

A MMO is depends (for the biggest part) on the gamers, simple as that.

Over the last decade I've been chance grouping, purpose teaming, guilding in any number of games where we - as a team - did something together.

And of course I've also taken advantage of the fruits of labor other players/groups had put their energy into: yes, I had them (almost) kill the bad guy(s) and then "stole" their kill/loot - other have done the same to me/my group. It just happens, very likely not even on purpose but rather because, well, you are actually trying to help that poor guy who is close to dying by just taking a few HP off that monster (as one doesn't have a way to heal the other guy) and would ya know it, dang, one just killed that monster - darn! ;-)

And yeah, there's obviously also the 'ooops, who left that loot box/objective unguarded' moments.

Shit hapens! Or am I just being an - accidental - bad guy?

The thing is, OP, AN doesn't make all MMOing suddenly a "nice-y-nice" place with GW2.

Of course, you are getting rewards for just being "part" of an event (though you may have done very little), but on the other side people are still as un-cooperative as they have always been (and will be): In the EB I (as a solo player) repeatedly called out (more) suitable targets to the horde that was banging at some keep's door (with no success aside from dying en mass), but did I get anybody to listen? Not even the members of the test guild I had picked came thru (yeah, it's probably because nobody likes me...).

The same was pretty much true when I joined up with a guild group (other guild) for an attack on what we considered a maybe possible target. But obviously, having a bit more power would have been nice, that's why the group called out in the first place.

Did anybody else from the mob that wast just busy getting killed at the castle react to either the groups or my calls? nope...

So, yeah, the true "playing together" is not really different/better than in other games.

And just being by chance registered for an event (and therefore getting the benefits even after having left the event) is about as much as teamplay as saying a bunch of guys are actually making a car when all they do is make parts for the car and then dropping them down some chutes where a big machine (read: some game mechanics) assembles them into a car.

Teamplay would be if those guys would actually hand the parts to some other guys who then assemble the parts into a car.

 Anyhow, the really sad part of your post is probably this line: "that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be)"  because it actually seems to suggest that you expect the game to reward you for not being an asshole.

Oh, it will... in the sense that going together up against a strong(er) enemy you are more like to kill the monster and not be killed.

But shouldn't that be natural? As natural as helping a guy (or girl) in need, fighting off a mob on his last drop of blood, and hey, there's even a new wandering monster just heading his way...  because it suggests that you actually expect the  )"

Seriously, you may just be a casual gamer but that doesn't mean you are by nature damned to be a solo player!

Find some guy(s) to join up with, maybe completely at random, and quickly you'll see that GW2's 'let's make it together!' mechanics are doing nothing but giving rewards for doing pretty much nothing...

 

Originally posted by Goreson

OP, I take it you are being serious?

Right, frankly, in that case you've been doing something wrong when MMOing!

A MMO is depends (for the biggest part) on the gamers, simple as that.

Over the last decade I've been chance grouping, purpose teaming, guilding in any number of games where we - as a team - did something together.

And of course I've also taken advantage of the fruits of labor other players/groups had put their energy into: yes, I had them (almost) kill the bad guy(s) and then "stole" their kill/loot - other have done the same to me/my group. It just happens, very likely not even on purpose but rather because, well, you are actually trying to help that poor guy who is close to dying by just taking a few HP off that monster (as one doesn't have a way to heal the other guy) and would ya know it, dang, one just killed that monster - darn! ;-)

And yeah, there's obviously also the 'ooops, who left that loot box/objective unguarded' moments.

Shit hapens! Or am I just being an - accidental - bad guy?

The thing is, OP, AN doesn't make all MMOing suddenly a "nice-y-nice" place with GW2.

Of course, you are getting rewards for just being "part" of an event (though you may have done very little), but on the other side people are still as un-cooperative as they have always been (and will be): In the EB I (as a solo player) repeatedly called out (more) suitable targets to the horde that was banging at some keep's door (with no success aside from dying en mass), but did I get anybody to listen? Not even the members of the test guild I had picked came thru (yeah, it's probably because nobody likes me...).

The same was pretty much true when I joined up with a guild group (other guild) for an attack on what we considered a maybe possible target. But obviously, having a bit more power would have been nice, that's why the group called out in the first place.

Did anybody else from the mob that wast just busy getting killed at the castle react to either the groups or my calls? nope...

So, yeah, the true "playing together" is not really different/better than in other games.

And just being by chance registered for an event (and therefore getting the benefits even after having left the event) is about as much as teamplay as saying a bunch of guys are actually making a car when all they do is make parts for the car and then dropping them down some chutes where a big machine (read: some game mechanics) assembles them into a car.

Teamplay would be if those guys would actually hand the parts to some other guys who then assemble the parts into a car.

 Anyhow, the really sad part of your post is probably this line: "that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be)"  because it actually seems to suggest that you expect the game to reward you for not being an asshole.

Oh, it will... in the sense that going together up against a strong(er) enemy you are more like to kill the monster and not be killed.

But shouldn't that be natural? As natural as helping a guy (or girl) in need, fighting off a mob on his last drop of blood, and hey, there's even a new wandering monster just heading his way...  because it suggests that you actually expect the  )"

Seriously, you may just be a casual gamer but that doesn't mean you are by nature damned to be a solo player!

Find some guy(s) to join up with, maybe completely at random, and quickly you'll see that GW2's 'let's make it together!' mechanics are doing nothing but giving rewards for doing pretty much nothing...

 

Not really.

A lot of people are simply used to being handed stuff as a result of simply "grinding".  Basically the gear/stats that makes you good.  Seen on countless MMOs where people simply use brute force (gear and stats) to plow through challenges because that has overcome any need to actually use strat and tactics.

I'm looking forward to seeing what GW 2 shapes up to be in that department, because GW1 felt a whole lot more player-centric than many MMOs I've played in the past five years.

The OP has some relevant points.

Definitely agree with the OP. Its the little things that make a difference:

- Ressing other people - This is very rare in other MMOs. You actually had no incentive to res somebody in an open playfield. At worst they would kill your mobs. At best they would say thank you. In GW2 Ressing is actually a key point in combat. So much so you just do it without thinking

- Killstealing is impossible - This is a huuuuuuge step forward imo.

Originally posted by Razephon

Definitely agree with the OP. Its the little things that make a difference:

- Ressing other people - This is very rare in other MMOs. You actually had no incentive to res somebody in an open playfield. At worst they would kill your mobs. At best they would say thank you. In GW2 Ressing is actually a key point in combat. So much so you just do it without thinking

- Killstealing is impossible - This is a huuuuuuge step forward imo.

 

Well you may not question whether you should rez someone.  But you should certainly do some thinking.  Because if you die while rezzing someone then you are both SOL and it can certainly happen that way.

Originally posted by RainBringer

Apparently people have forgotten that a GAME is about Competition.

Actually, no, games are about having fun.

In fact, many of us play games to get away from jerks like yourself who use excuses like "the world is a bad place" to continue making the world a bad place, IRL and online.