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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you think [mod edit] SWTOR changed MMO gamers?

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90 posts found
  snoop101

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 389

5/06/12 9:44:12 PM#21
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by snoop101

Well I actually understand what hes saying. I dont get it either why people are bashing Elder scrolls. As for TOR people need to realize that not to many people bashed it when it was announced, if anything the majority of the people were happy and excited. It wasent until beta and then when the game was released that people realized that it was like Ferrari making Lada. Sure it works and people play it, but lets be realistic here and agree that the money that was put into it and the outcome of what they actually produced was a fail. 

   It is the only mmo out there with a good story, The space game right now is a fail but Bioware has a chance to improve that and I hope they will

Sorry I dont agree with you. This is to each their own. One person might love the story in WOW and hate TOR, or the other way around. There is a lot of MMO's out right now with great stories. 

If you are talking about how the story is provided to you then that is another to each their own, because a lot of people including my self hate the fact they brought in stupid cut scenes to the MMO genre.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

5/06/12 9:46:33 PM#22
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Fail? When did this happen?

 

By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.

Please stick to the topic. ;)

   I find it amazing with your arrogant attitude toward the millions of us who enjoy swtor and Biowares amazing products. Bioware set out to do what it does best and that is make a great story with great production values and mmo elements. If you and many others see swtor as a failure that is ok, however don't lump the rest of us into your morass. mmorpg.com while i enjoy the site is filled with haters of every game including Tera, pre and post cu swg, wow, eve, etc, etc

Technically 1.7 mill sub no. at realease isn't millions.  Which they manipulated the numbers with the free play time or whatever it was a little while back to boost their sub image.  Fact is people are losing intrest which GW2 and TSW will make it worse or more evident.  TERA has jsut released so willing to bet there will be a good number of canxed subs this month or from last month.  People are already wanting server merges just like Rift a few months after release.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

5/06/12 9:50:27 PM#23
Originally posted by snoop101
Originally posted by eddieg50
Originally posted by snoop101

Well I actually understand what hes saying. I dont get it either why people are bashing Elder scrolls. As for TOR people need to realize that not to many people bashed it when it was announced, if anything the majority of the people were happy and excited. It wasent until beta and then when the game was released that people realized that it was like Ferrari making Lada. Sure it works and people play it, but lets be realistic here and agree that the money that was put into it and the outcome of what they actually produced was a fail. 

   It is the only mmo out there with a good story, The space game right now is a fail but Bioware has a chance to improve that and I hope they will

Sorry I dont agree with you. This is to each their own. One person might love the story in WOW and hate TOR, or the other way around. There is a lot of MMO's out right now with great stories. 

If you are talking about how the story is provided to you then that is another to each their own, because a lot of people including my self hate the fact they brought in stupid cut scenes to the MMO genre.

Thought the trooper story was corney as hell while the smuggler was awesome sauce.  However some things made no sense... a tropper or smugler going toe to toe with a Sith jedi whatever or a bounty hunter or IA toe to toe with a Jedi is beyond ridiculousness.  You don't see Han or Leya go toe to toe with Vader or the Emperor.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

5/06/12 9:55:47 PM#24

Honestly I get why people are bashing the Elder Scrolls mmo cinsiderably better than why they ever bashed TOR.

 

Figure it this way. Bioware still made a game that catered to the way they make games. With a strong singleplayer focus and tons of narrative and people talking. The gameplay matched what's become the fomrula MMO gameplay, and that annoyed people, but even more so it just failed to live up to what the game could of and should have been for $200 million or so.

 

Now the Elder Scrolls MMO is announced and you have not only that same dynamic of generic gameplay, but you have to realize that it comes with a dramatic shift in narrative, player control and progression, and depth of interactivity with the game world. It's the same thing I'm gonna have to say about this title for the rest of it's existence, it managed to entirely alienate it's core fanbase and it isn't even out yet.

 

TOR can still be played by people who enjoy the core mechanics of a Bioware game. Because it still fundamentally contains the assets that define it as one. People moan about it, sure. Lots do. But the people that want a Star Wars MMO are a much more varied group than the people that want an Elder Scrolls one.

 

As for the other point. No I don't think TOR changed people's behavior towards games. They just spoke louder for the above mentioned reason. People who like Star Wars are a pretty damn big crowd, it's not just the Bioware fans that were looking forward to that game.

 

People for a while have been annoyed by this trend. When LotRO, Rift, Warhammer, and others came out you had the same kind of arguments being made and the same reasons people were disfavoring them, and yet the trend continues.

 

For example, look back on Diablo 3's development. How long have people been ranting about that game and it's only now about to be released? Since that first demo of the berserker running around and people commenting that the game looks too WoW-like and isn't 'dark enough' to be a Diablo game up to the changes and cutdowns on variety for player progression, there has been a constant negative parade of people on that game, yet that has failed to make any impact on the inevitable outcome.

 

It's because as far as a dev studio goes, what publishers and investors say is considerably more important than what players say. We don't pay their salary while they develop the game, their funding comes from other people. It's only gamers paying for their continued existence after the fact.

 

People have complained forever, TOR didn't change that.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  pierth

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1515

5/06/12 9:56:53 PM#25
Originally posted by Ambros123
Originally posted by eddieg50

   I find it amazing with your arrogant attitude toward the millions of us who enjoy swtor and Biowares amazing products. Bioware set out to do what it does best and that is make a great story with great production values and mmo elements. If you and many others see swtor as a failure that is ok, however don't lump the rest of us into your morass. mmorpg.com while i enjoy the site is filled with haters of every game including Tera, pre and post cu swg, wow, eve, etc, etc

Technically 1.7 mill sub no. at realease isn't millions.  Which they manipulated the numbers with the free play time or whatever it was a little while back to boost their sub image.  Fact is people are losing intrest which GW2 and TSW will make it worse or more evident.  TERA has jsut released so willing to bet there will be a good number of canxed subs this month or from last month.  People are already wanting server merges just like Rift a few months after release.

I read eddieg50's statement with the bulk of the "millions" on "Bioware's amazing products," which he naturally separated SWTOR from as it certainly isn't one of Bioware's (RIP) amazing products. 

  Dkompoze

Elite Member

Joined: 2/01/06
Posts: 221

5/06/12 10:04:25 PM#26

Peoples definition of fail varies as much as the games themselves ---seems most people define fail as "a game that doesnt put wow out of business"

 

But i have seen a pattern over the past few years - game comes out and gets tons of subs.It loses some subs. Then some end  all be all patch comes out usually within 6months,it seems to include new additions and old fixes and it regains some subs. Within a few months of that first BIG patch a server merge or transfer is offered. Usually by the end of the first year a new game comes out everyone flocks to that. Then more server merges.  People start playing new game and hate on old game then rinse an repeat.

Once a new game comes out and pulls a big chunk of the pop away most people cry fail.

  Ciccero

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/05
Posts: 113

5/06/12 10:07:12 PM#27

Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

  pierth

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1515

5/06/12 10:09:30 PM#28
Originally posted by Ciccero

Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

The question is, is it really the dev companies or the publishers? I may be naive but I still want to believe that devs really want to make great games, but without their own money to make games they have to rely on publishers and investors who end up calling the shots.

  SuperDonk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/10
Posts: 699

5/06/12 10:10:44 PM#29
Originally posted by Ciccero

Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but there has to be at least one out there that does, right?

I want to be Uncle Owen again.

  User Deleted
5/06/12 10:26:56 PM#30

It could be a combination of things. I'm inclined to think its less about TOR's endeavors and more about the current state of the genre and its demographic(s).

Devs are pulling every genre into the MMO realm with a twist or two:
TOR and TSW are bringing srpg.
GW2 and Wildstar are bringing action/adventure.
Tera and Blade&Soul are bringing the 3D fighter.
PS2 and many others are bringing the FPS.

So when you look at what an Elder Scrolls game could bring to the MMO table, a lot of people naturally think sandbox.

That does not appear to be the case. So we are seeing a lot of backlash.

  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1025

Kill Your Heroes

5/06/12 10:29:22 PM#31

I would have to say that no, gamers have not changed in any way. Everyone, including MMORPG.com, hyped the shit out of ToR to the point that it could never live up to expectations. Anyone with half a brain could see the 'failure' coming. The lurkers of this and other sites have watched it happen time and time again. We watched it happen with ToR, with Rift, with DCUO, with Aion, with AoC, with Warhammer and we're all about to watch it happen again with GW2 and TSW. 

 

If people had grown any smarter they wouldn't be hyping and praising GW2 like they are now. The only reason that TESO is getting so much backlash is because fans of TES are outraged that they're changing so many core mechanics. It has nothing to do with being more leery of new MMOs' and their developer's promises. Many of those same TES fans are lining up to give ArenaNet their money and praising a game that they've barely played.

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

5/06/12 10:29:57 PM#32
Very well put OP.
 
As to SWTOR "failing", as an rpg, as in its initial box sales and current player numbers it is a success, but I don’t see it sustaining numbers, or growing, ever again, except on the grounds of its IP. Purely as an mmo, it is a failure. Mmo players will gravitate towards the superior products that gain respect among players, such as GW2, and hopefully TSW, heck even FFXIV 2.0 has a better chance to win people over with innovation, once it’s out of it's development rut. We are seeing indie projects taking advantage of the new non-corporate publisher culture of kickster etc, and even Cryptic's Neverwinter come up with good ideas, it is only right that those behind the curve pay a price.
 
 
  Tokken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 887

"I'm your Huckleberry!"

5/06/12 10:33:08 PM#33
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Fail? When did this happen?

 

By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.

Please stick to the topic. ;)

Why the heck did you bring up FAIL then? SWTOR has not failed......... YET.

UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, WOW, EQ2, CoH, CoX, VG, Aion, STO, CO, DCUO, LOTRO, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, DP, NW, TSW, MH, DDO, Rift, WS, ESO, Trove, LM

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

5/06/12 10:43:35 PM#34
Originally posted by SuperDonk
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWTOR hasn't failed yet.  There's still some hope for them.  A killer expansion with amazing space combat or converting to a GW2 B2P model are two possibilities.

Swtor is going the way of AoC and WAR, nice launch day box sales, then a very steep sub decline within the first few months.

 

Considering BW had the money, time, and IP and still released a sub-par game, I wouldn't get my hopes up that they will release an awesome expansion or even fix the problems they currently have.

 

Swtor will go the way of WAR once EA starts crunching the numbers, maintenance only with bugs and other issues that  exsist for years.

In case it isn't obvious or that you are somewhat new to mmorpgs, the history of mmorpg has shown most games have a good up front sales with a drop down to 30% retention.  Few games have broken that trend.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4616

5/06/12 10:49:45 PM#35


Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Fail? When did this happen?
 
By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

It failed to deliver what what promised in it.
It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
It failed to revolutionize the genre as was the claim on it.
It failed to live up to the estimated projections.

A game doesn't have to be a financial disaster to be a failure. It failed in many areas it was supposed to deliver. Probably, the only reason it's not a total failure was the initial boxed sales due to it's massive hype.....Times Square flash mobs anyone?

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  dubyahite

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/11
Posts: 2506

5/06/12 10:53:43 PM#36
Oh damn I hadn't realized they shut down the SWTOR server already. What a quick failure.


Oh wait. I'm being told they didn't do that. I'm also being told it's the second most popular mmo inthe western market still, almost six months after launch.

Wait. I'm also being told that the game has MA a boatload of money already an will continue to bring in millions of dollars in revenue every month.


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  Fed1

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 174

5/06/12 10:54:54 PM#37
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 


Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Fail? When did this happen?
 
By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.


 

It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
 

Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?

FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.

  Games888

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/12
Posts: 244

5/06/12 10:56:53 PM#38

just hope they dont try to copy swtor and make it single player pay to sub mmo. 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4616

5/06/12 11:09:22 PM#39


Originally posted by Fed1


Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 



Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Fail? When did this happen?
 
By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.



 
It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
 


Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?
FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.

Are we creating a sliding scale? What qualifies as an MMORPG?
Here is my answer. I used to hate leveling in WOW because it was isolating. Back during the final days of TBC, my brother and I used to play WoW. We wanted to go into WOTLK with fresh toons. He wanted a War, and I wanted a Pally (I never actually switched to it when it went live, but meh, not important) Anyway, WE agreed to level the 2 as a pair. We had to choose the same race. If we both weren't online, we would not level, we would focus on skills and crafting if one was online when the other wasn't. I can't tell you how much of a pain this was. Frankly, it required far too much planning and coordination. We succeeded in reaching 70 before the expansion hit, but it really was difficult to stay paced with each other. SWTOR, would not have even been possible to do this.

So...if we use that to define the game, you tell me.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Fed1

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 174

5/06/12 11:19:57 PM#40
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 


Originally posted by Fed1
Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?
FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.


 

Are we creating a sliding scale? What qualifies as an MMORPG?
Here is my answer. I used to hate leveling in WOW because it was isolating. Back during the final days of TBC, my brother and I used to play WoW. We wanted to go into WOTLK with fresh toons. He wanted a War, and I wanted a Pally (I never actually switched to it when it went live, but meh, not important) Anyway, WE agreed to level the 2 as a pair. We had to choose the same race. If we both weren't online, we would not level, we would focus on skills and crafting if one was online when the other wasn't. I can't tell you how much of a pain this was. Frankly, it required far too much planning and coordination. We succeeded in reaching 70 before the expansion hit, but it really was difficult to stay paced with each other. SWTOR, would not have even been possible to do this.

So...if we use that to define the game, you tell me.

Umm Yes you can do that in SWTOR - I am still looking to see if you consider WoW a MMO though. A simple yes or No and I would be able to put your original opinion in correct context.

 Thanks

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