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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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214 posts found
  cloud8521

Novice Member

Joined: 5/30/04
Posts: 891

5/06/12 4:44:00 PM#21
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

would you prefer not viable  at a given time due to limitations because of money and possible hardweare restictions?

 

 

 

also its totally possible in this day and age

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 4:44:50 PM#22
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

 

  That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?


financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

  SoulOfRaziel

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 411

5/06/12 4:47:04 PM#23

TESO could use a combat based on Mortal Online for exemple... they would just need to develop it a little further and it would be grt

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 4:49:35 PM#24
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

Yeah, but there hasn't been a single TES game where you can't switch from a bow to an axe, in order to take on whatever closes that distance. Hell, you could become God-like in any choice of weapons.

Now, it seems strict class definitions will be in place to make sure that bow-only becomes viable, instead of making the Player think about changing tactics. The problem, though, is it's usually being forced to reload from a previous state that tells you that "you're doing it wrong". Impossible in an MMO, so the devs seem to be opting for the far simpler outlook of "it's impossible to do it wrong, because thats ALL you can do as that character".

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

5/06/12 4:51:20 PM#25
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

 

  That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?


financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

 

  They have to build their own engine to do NON-FPS combat.  They can't even so much as use variables and math that they've worked on for years making their current combat and all the balancing that goes with it.  Either way they have to pay the same amount of people the same amount of money for basically the same amount of time to produce the game in either fashion.  If anything the non-fps combat is gonna take at least a tiny bit more money to make because now they have to balance all of their current skills and magic, which have been balanced for years around a FPS system, around this new system.

Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...and the best of THOSE are for FPS combat...by the way), so the overhead isn't changing at all.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2388

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

5/06/12 4:52:04 PM#26
Originally posted by spaceport

Ill gladly take Darkfall or Mortal online combat over a WOW tab targeting mash fest with 5 skills any day of the week.

 

Hell it doesn't even have to be like TES SP rpgs.... at least make it like Tera or GW2..

Why not play those then?

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 4:54:14 PM#27
Originally posted by Gishgeron

Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

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Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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  Reserton

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 71

5/06/12 4:56:34 PM#28
Originally posted by caremuchless

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

 

 You must be kidding?

 

Neocoron an MMORPG made about 10 years ago, by an unknown indie company, managed Elderscrolls type first person combat in an MMORPG without any problem. 

No hotbar of skills simply run up to a mob and whack it with your sword or cast a fireball at it, and it worked beautifully in PVE and PVP.

Why can a big company not manage it 10 years later?

You are trying to say we do not have the technology to do it now when we had it 10 years ago?

I was really excited for an Elderscroll MMORPG as I thought might finally have this type of combat in an mmorpg again, finally a game without a friggen hotbar!

 

Neocron is one of my favourite MMORPGS I have ever played and the combat style was one of the best parts.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

5/06/12 4:57:36 PM#29

Considering this type of combat has already been none in MMO's repeatedly...I'm going to call shenanigans on this OP.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

5/06/12 4:58:50 PM#30
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

 

There are obvious ways around that, especially in a game where shields and armor can actually mitigate a good amount of damage or all damage depending on what you have equipped.  

 

Balance issues don't make things not possible, they just make them possible with additional restrictions.  

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

5/06/12 4:59:06 PM#31
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Gishgeron

Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

 

   ......are you serious?  No, no....you can't be serious.  I can't accept that they chose to license an engine for this....this...garbage when there are a veritable SEA of incredible engines for FPS combat out there.  It defies logic.....and....and....

  Dude, you just proved the existance of Satan.  I just didn't realize he was controlling the MMO genre these days.

  caremuchless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 597

Whether you believe you can or believe you cannot, you are right.

 
OP  5/06/12 4:59:30 PM#32
Originally posted by Istavaan

if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

You must of not read the post. I think darkfall combat is shit. 

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 5:00:21 PM#33
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

 

  That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?


financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

 

  They have to build their own engine to do NON-FPS combat.  They can't even so much as use variables and math that they've worked on for years making their current combat and all the balancing that goes with it.  Either way they have to pay the same amount of people the same amount of money for basically the same amount of time to produce the game in either fashion.  If anything the non-fps combat is gonna take at least a tiny bit more money to make because now they have to balance all of their current skills and magic, which have been balanced for years around a FPS system, around this new system.

Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...and the best of THOSE are for FPS combat...by the way), so the overhead isn't changing at all.


where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 5:01:51 PM#34
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Gishgeron

Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

 

   ......are you serious?  No, no....you can't be serious.  I can't accept that they chose to license an engine for this....this...garbage when there are a veritable SEA of incredible engines for FPS combat out there.  It defies logic.....and....and....

  Dude, you just proved the existance of Satan.  I just didn't realize he was controlling the MMO genre these days.

You are so bad at sarcasm (or so good at it... hmm) that I simply don't get what is going on here.

But yeah, you should have known who really runs Barter Town these days.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 5:02:09 PM#35
Originally posted by caremuchless
Originally posted by Istavaan

if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

You must of not read the post. I think darkfall combat is shit. 

i don't care what you think is shit thats your opinion my point was, if darkfall can make half assed fps combat what do you think zenimax could do with all the resources they have at their disposal..darkfall was made by an indie company on a shoe string budget.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

5/06/12 5:03:45 PM#36
Originally posted by Istavaan


where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

 

  You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

  I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

  Reserton

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 71

5/06/12 5:07:00 PM#37
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan


where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

 

  You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

  I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

I am very surprised you came on here to argue a point without even knowing this.. This is pretty much the main reason posts like this are all over the place and there is so much outrage, because of the fact they choose to license a terrible Wow-esque engine  and make the game into a WoW Clone.

  caremuchless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 597

Whether you believe you can or believe you cannot, you are right.

 
OP  5/06/12 5:08:20 PM#38
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by caremuchless

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

There are a number of games that have near real time syncing of combat.  Doing it well in a open world isn't impossible but it does present some challanges.  Personally I think Bethsada is probably one of the few companies that has the resources to tackle it but apperantly not the will.

Elder Scrolls online without a huge open world and without fluid non tab targeting is going to feel odd.  I'm not gonig to bash the game yet until I learn more about it but it still feels like a odd design choice for the developers.  

Its not so much that its not possible....is it possible to make it and it actually be fun?

 To be better than darkfall or mortal online?

  GTwander

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Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

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5/06/12 5:10:43 PM#39
Originally posted by Gishgeron

  I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky. 

The irony is that suits can't see the dangers of being THAT similar to an existing game (SW:ToR).

I would have never given these cretins the credentials needed to even find employ as a business major.

 

What all of this tells me is that selling 1+ million box sales is worth more than a game that garners respect and has a healthy life expectancy. There is a serious 'dance' going on in the MMO world these days; where publishers just want to milk them for all they are worth early on, then continue to gain a trickle-revenue long after the game has all but died and gone to a skeleton crew.

This is why indies are the best out there; they HAVE to be. The one game they work on IS their lifeline.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

5/06/12 5:16:04 PM#40
Originally posted by Reserton
Originally posted by Gishgeron
Originally posted by Istavaan


where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

 

  You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

  I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

I am very surprised you came on here to argue a point without even knowing this.. This is pretty much the main reason posts like this are all over the place and there is so much outrage, because of the fact they choose to license a terrible Wow-esque engine  and make the game into a WoW Clone.


  Moment of honesty?  I refuse to look into the game at all.  Barring that, I would never, not in a million years, assume a company with the financial backing that Bethesda has would even consider just "borrowing" a game engine when they clrearly need a new one.  I had just assumed they were building an engine for traditional MMO mechanics on the grounds that every MMO does.

  I expect this kind of thing from low budget guys...but the big boys?  Dude, you have the money, just flippin do what you know needs to be done.

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