Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

One thing i cant get out of my head. Its not like TES series are some unknown, niche game that nobody knows about. For gods sake they have millions of followers, and if they made their game somewhat similar to other TES games, they would still have those millions + new people trying the game. But instead, they decided to go 1on1 with WoW and make it more wowlike, because thats... what other devs do. While in the process they are pretty much ignoring all those millions of people who like TES for what it is.

 

Regardless how you look at it, its a bit weird... if some game that 30 people know about decided to make a mmo, fine they cant risk much, and going the wow-route is the safest way to go. But they have millions of people playing TES because its that special, different and sandbodxy, and here we are, with those devs working on its online version, where only similarities with other TES games is in its name. 

 

I just wish TESO was more of... itself, and less of a WoW. 

 

tldr: I can understand indie devs being scared of developing a sandbox, because that one is much harder to make, and its more risky. Heck i can even understand some bigger publishers wanting their games to be a lot like wow, because thats what makes money, well, most of the time.

But when you have one (well, a few) sandbox games that have millions and millions of players, and they all like it for what it is, why on earth would you make its online version THAT different to all other TES games? :/

its funny most indie mmo devs are making Sandbox games. Just google, Dawn tide, Embers of Caerus, Mortal Online, Darkfall, and Life is Feudal.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Homitu

The TESO devs fully acknowledged they expected to receive heavy criticism after the announcement, and that they will continue to until the game is released.  Only then will the game speak for itself.  Only then can the criticism can be quelled or justified.

Unfortunately, I believe people have a tendency to find what they expect to find.  If players try the game expecting to see failure upon failure, very few people will be able to escape those expectations no matter how good the game actually is.  Some of the more open-minded, rational players will, but not everyone.  It's kind of sad.  

Yeah I agree with your assessment. People see what they want to.

I admit ive a harsh critic of what ive seen so far. But thats just what i ahve seen so far. im still burned by SWTOR. My opinion for TESO could change at PAX, E3 or in any release in the future. Atleast I have an open mind of what it may become.

Originally posted by Homitu

Unfortunately, I believe people have a tendency to find what they expect to find.  If players try the game expecting to see failure upon failure, very few people will be able to escape those expectations no matter how good the game actually is.  Some of the more open-minded, rational players will, but not everyone.  It's kind of sad.  

Its not about how good the game actually is. Its about how different the game actually is, to what people expected. And of course they expected a backslash, you dont take most successful sandbox series into mmo world by turning it into themepark, lol. 

ps: while i realize we are in a need for more games like wow, because you can never have too many games with same features, and end game gear is so shiny, id still like TESO to be more like TES series, than WoW (:

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Distopia

Yeah I agree with your assessment. People see what they want to.

I admit ive a harsh critic of what ive seen so far. But thats just what i ahve seen so far. im still burned by SWTOR. My opinion for TESO could change at PAX, E3 or in any release in the future. Atleast I have an open mind of what it may become.

Your feelings are understandable, anyone who feels it's too far a departure from TES has a sound point. IF that's a deal breaker for some I don't blame them.

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

One thing i cant get out of my head. Its not like TES series are some unknown, niche game that nobody knows about. For gods sake they have millions of followers, and if they made their game somewhat similar to other TES games, they would still have those millions + new people trying the game. But instead, they decided to go 1on1 with WoW and make it more wowlike, because thats... what other devs do. While in the process they are pretty much ignoring all those millions of people who like TES for what it is.

 

Regardless how you look at it, its a bit weird... if some game that 30 people know about decided to make a mmo, fine they cant risk much, and going the wow-route is the safest way to go. But they have millions of people playing TES because its that special, different and sandbodxy, and here we are, with those devs working on its online version, where only similarities with other TES games is in its name. 

 

I just wish TESO was more of... itself, and less of a WoW. 

 

tldr: I can understand indie devs being scared of developing a sandbox, because that one is much harder to make, and its more risky. Heck i can even understand some bigger publishers wanting their games to be a lot like wow, because thats what makes money, well, most of the time.

But when you have one (well, a few) sandbox games that have millions and millions of players, and they all like it for what it is, why on earth would you make its online version THAT different to all other TES games? :/

its funny most indie mmo devs are making Sandbox games. Just google, Dawn tide, Embers of Caerus, Mortal Online, Darkfall, and Life is Feudal.

Don't forget The Repopulation!

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Warmaker

This game is going to be aimed squarely at non-TES fans.  It sounds ridiculously stupid,

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Does it?

To transform "TES features" into MMO would create something like Darkfall - not very successful title.
TES series is not overly popular PC title thus the fanbase is rather small - not very promising customer base.

etc.
etc.

There are simply more reasons why not to make the game for "TES fans" rather then for them.

This is bull crap. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water with a statement like that. You can't say just because Darkfall wasn't a huge success because of the problems it had would also happen to a ES mmo that could be done right. It's the same thing with TOR. You take a very successful and highly liked IP and make the most linear and retreaded mmo that plays out the same old boring way as what's out there already.

As it has been mentioned already. Fans expected a ES mmorpg to play out somewhat like the SPRPG games do. While not being a 100% true sandbox, it has many of it's features that are in the sandbox framework and what the devs want to deliver is another tired and boring themepark.  Honestly, the debate is not about snadbox vs themepark, it's really about a dev company that is going out of it's way to NOT make a ES mmorpg that is true to the franchise in systems and mechanics.

Originally posted by DSWBeef/

its funny most indie mmo devs are making Sandbox games. Just google, Dawn tide, Embers of Caerus, Mortal Online, Darkfall, and Life is Feudal.

yea i realize that, but thats the problem in itself too. Those indie teams rarely have enough funds to make something that will be both good and polished at the same time, and even if their intentions are great... 

also, we have a tiny, really really tiny devs team making games like Darfkall or Mortal Online. Now i dont personally play either of those games, and as i already mentioned both games have some stuff that simply makes their games unplayable, its still amazing what have they done with those games, considering their small budget and dev teams. Now imagine what would they be able to make with lets say 200-300m... and then look at SWTOR and its 200m+ spent on making cutscenes.  

i just wish someone would finally go and pump some serious money into making a truly working sandbox game (without 10's of broken things). Heck, people developing Archeage spent some $40m so far (i believe?), which is still a fraction of swtor's money, and just look at that game and its features (: 

Originally posted by DSWBeef

its funny most indie mmo devs are making Sandbox games. Just google, Dawn tide, Embers of Caerus, Mortal Online, Darkfall, and Life is Feudal.

I hadn't heard of Life is feudal. Thanks for the tip.

Oh and on topic, I think this Elderscrolls online game is going to suck as badly as all the rest of the cookie cutter themepark mmos. This will in fact be the very first Elderscrolls game I will not be buying. And I've played every one fo them since daggerfall. It's truely an abomination what they are doing to one of the best game series I've ever played.

It seems that a lot of people are worried the change in playstyle will break their immersion to the game which TES is famous for.

Yet when you go to the Skyrim Nexus, you're always presented with the next big boobie mod and skimpy armor mod. Let me guess, that's for immersion too?

Originally posted by Homitu

Unfortunately, I believe people have a tendency to find what they expect to find.  If players try the game expecting to see failure upon failure, very few people will be able to escape those expectations no matter how good the game actually is.  Some of the more open-minded, rational players will, but not everyone.  It's kind of sad.  

See, i think this (TESO) is a very specific case. Many times when hearing or reading the reactions of fans when a new MMO based on their beloved IP is announced everything just feels like a bandwagon thing, like if the followers were waiting to see what other people think about that game and just follow the trend.

And yes, in those cases I agree that developers will struggle to change minds, when someone sees what they want to see they will always see it BUT normally developers just come and on first announcements throw some screenshots and let you know what features the game will have. Based on that info the people tends to start making comparisons of some kind and either love or hate arises from a comparison made by the prospective customer herself.

The problem with this announcement is: the developers (they PR department) decided to make the comparisons themselves before any comparison was made by a potential customer, so you are leaving people with minimum chance to deviate from that comparison. The article has a lot of with references to World of Warcraft and GW2, and with expressions like: “with the same control mechanisms (as typical MMOs)”, “so long as you are appropiately leveled”, “expect reaching to level cap to take 120 or so hours”, “in standard MMO collection fashion”, etc. (there is actually one bit when talking about there not being trinity that feels like it was just copy/pastaed from GW2).

To illustrate it, imagine:

A) Blizzard came up with the announcement of Titan and showed some images of the game and said: “we will have 5 faction combat and in depth crafting”.

B) Blizzard came up with the announcement of Titan and showed some images of the game and said: “we know CS is the best FPS game out there so we will be doing most of the things the same way they are doing them”.

I totally hate the game already from the 1 min trailer I got all I need, classes, specs, races, what the PvP will be like, how you quest, raids, and the whole shebang, yep hate hate hate it, an no fanbois will tell me otherwise, good thing I dont make snap decisions.

Big publishers are not going to make a AAA sandbox until an indie company manages to make a decent one and shows alot of profit potential in that market.

While I am not a fan of the direction TESO decided to take, I understand it from a business an profit perspective. Rage on the forums mean very little to any of these guys. The other 4 million people who play MMOs and dont read forums is who they are developing for.

And all of you sandbox fans out there- If you want a decent one made then you will probably all have to support a not so decent one for awhile. Until they can see more than a very small nich market subbing to these games ( while Themeparks subs in millions) they will never make one. Pure and simple.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Distopia

Yeah I agree with your assessment. People see what they want to.

I admit ive a harsh critic of what ive seen so far. But thats just what i ahve seen so far. im still burned by SWTOR. My opinion for TESO could change at PAX, E3 or in any release in the future. Atleast I have an open mind of what it may become.

Your feelings are understandable, anyone who feels it's too far a departure from TES has a sound point. IF that's a deal breaker for some I don't blame them.

I would agree with that, and I wouldn't blame them either.  Many of the same people, however, have argued that many TES features wouldn't make good MMO features, as seen in the pages upon pages of rebukes to Skryim MMO threads following Skyrim's release.  

There are 3 positions as I see it: 

1. TES features would not fit the MMO genre, so they shouldn't even try to make a TES MMO. 
2. TES features would make for a great MMO, unfortunately they are abadoning many of them.
3. Some TES features would work in an MMO setting, others would not.  They need to adapt their game to the genre.

Originally posted by morlock9

Welcome to next week's headline across the gaming community.

Regardless of the state of the recently revealed game or its ability to stand on it's own as an MMO, the development team has departed significantly from the features that characterized previous Elder Scrolls games and has resulted in a backlash from the fan base.

With the leak of some detailed information on game play, many have begun to wonder if the title of Elder Scrolls Online should be replaced with something more fitting a traditional MMO "Based upon the lore of the Elder Scrolls Series".

At a time when most MMO's benifit from exciting announcments, ESO is already being heralded as a falure for lack of vision. This appears to be the most negatively received "reveal" in the history of the modern MMORPG.         
 

 I agree,this is a vaste of great game title since they will not attrack majority of the elder scrolls fanbase.

They might as well named this game the puppet show online,It has nothing common with the elder scrolls series.

Peoples just need to stop hating and go do other things outside of the PC gaming Industry. New hobbies might make you realise later on, how you used to enjoy MMO and make a comeback.

Most I see from people now a day just sounds like a never ending Rant on anything that comes out gaming wise....

This is where you know you should just go seek fun elsewhere.

PS: Im curious about ESO personally, it will be Bethesda's First MMO ? Let's wait and see before we all go Nerd-ape-shit thrower on them :)

What a mess...

Poor Todd H, must be so pissed, was already so pissed when you spoke about a Tes mmo beside him.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/04/elder-scrolls-online-announcement-generates-fan-backlash/

http://kotaku.com/5907598/first-elder-scrolls-online--details-make-it-sound-like-just-another-fantasy-mmo

http://rpgwonk.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/the-elder-scrolls-online-announcement-negatively-received-by-fans/

http://geek.pikimal.com/2012/05/06/the-elder-scrolls-online-not-sure-if-want/

http://www.blood-line.com/2012/05/elder-scrolls-online-anounced-why-am-i-disappointed/

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Causes-Fan-Backlash-for-Bethesda-267833.shtml

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/05/elder-scrolls-online-disappointment.html

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/elder-visions/

http://manatank.com/2012/05/elder-scrolls-online-details-screenshot/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/04/a-lot-of-tamriel-estate-the-elder-scrolls-online/

http://www.aboysmind.com/2012/05/06/elder-scrolls-online-more-of-the-same/

That isn't even all of the links, but I got tired of linking all of them. There are tons of forums and comments on videos and articles also. Mostly all negative. It's an issue

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

I think this forum post covers it. . . look what happened to Fallout. . and it was a success.  Not saying I like it but deep down we all know we are no longer the target audience :)

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1372327-ok-what-is-happening-in-zenimax-in-this-precise-moment/page__view__findpost__p__20739138

And I can pull out Fallout Tactics and Fallout Brotherhood Of Steel to counter this argument.

What was the success in F3 was sticking to the -core- concept of Fallout and then translating it to first person without loosing too much. Sure a few things got removed and the scale of the world was severely limited but the core concepts stayed the same.

F3 is very much a fallout game, not the best one, but still true to its line of predecessors.

The core concept in F:BoS and Tactics however was violated, and hence it completely tanked, and nobody likes to talk about them anymore. The funny thing is, most people agree that Tactics actually is a -decent- tactics game, its just not a good Fallout game.

The same is happening here.

TESO will no doubt be a -decent- MMO, just not a TES game, and should not have the TES name on the cover.

 

PS: i guarantee now that since ZeniMax now won the Fallout Online lawsuit and they hold all the rights to Fallout, we will also see a similar treatment to Fallout.

I'm giving it 2 years and there will be Fallout Online. At least there the return to 3rd person, click-target, methodic, tactical combat would actually make sense.

PPS: this trend i've seen in every recent MMO, everything is fucking backwards. STO in stead of having methodical submarine-like combat like the TV-series and movies opted for twitchy crap with direct controls. while the ground-combat is tab-target whack-a-mole fest.

Very valid points.  I just don't think the game will fail because it is not a TES with online components.  I think it will fail because the market is saturated with games like the one they are making.

 

I am starting to believe it is indeed all about box sales.

I don't and never thought that translating a franchise to new pastures is a bad idea, however one has to take into account where the transition started and where it went.

If TESO for example was an MMORTS set in Tamriel, I would have probably nodded my head in agreement. Yes, then changes are necessary to translate the game from what it was (non-linear first person RPG) to what the new game-type is (RTS). And all our bets are off, because a TES-RTS was never released. A TES RPG however was.

In the case of TES to TESO features are being -removed- from the franchise, features that are being considered at the core of the franchise.

Not to mention that the transition is from RPG to RPG and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, MMORPGs have no intrinsic difference from SP RPGs beyond -technical- aspects like server/netcode/balancing. There is no rulebook that states that MMORPGs need to have tab-target combat and a thrid-person view.

Ask yourself this, if TESO was released as a followup to Skyrim, would you be trying to defend its translation-decissions?

No? So why the speciall pleading for MMORPGs? Why is it ok there to diametrally change the rules on which the franchise runs? MMORPGs are not a different genre, they are the same genre as RPGs, just with more people.

Originally posted by urthal22

Peoples just need to stop hating and go do other things outside of the PC gaming Industry. New hobbies might make you realise later on, how you used to enjoy MMO and make a comeback.

 

Most I see from people now a day just sounds like a never ending Rant on anything that comes out gaming wise....

This is where you know you should just go seek fun elsewhere.

 

PS: Im curious about ESO personally, it will be Bethesda's First MMO ? Let's wait and see before we all go Nerd-ape-shit thrower on them :)

Its not Bethesda.

Bethesda is not involved in any shape or form with TESO.

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Originally posted by AdamTM

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Originally posted by urthal22
Peoples just need to stop hating and go do other things outside of the PC gaming Industry. New hobbies might make you realise later on, how you used to enjoy MMO and make a comeback.
 
Most I see from people now a day just sounds like a never ending Rant on anything that comes out gaming wise....
This is where you know you should just go seek fun elsewhere.
 
PS: Im curious about ESO personally, it will be Bethesda's First MMO ? Let's wait and see before we all go Nerd-ape-shit thrower on them :)

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Its not Bethesda.
Bethesda is not involved in any shape or form with TESO.

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Yet they stamp their name on the trailer.