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General Discussion  » ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  caremuchless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 594

Whether you believe you can or believe you cannot, you are right.

 
OP  5/06/12 3:56:11 PM#1

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

 

 

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

5/06/12 3:58:06 PM#2

It is completely possible.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  DSWBeef

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 758

5/06/12 4:00:28 PM#3
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

I know i may get flamed for this but if TERA can do it with 3rd person how come 1st isnt possible?

Playing: Archeage Alpha, War Thunder, World of Tanks
Waiting on: Archeage, Wild Star, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  caremuchless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 594

Whether you believe you can or believe you cannot, you are right.

 
OP  5/06/12 4:01:25 PM#4
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

If so how?

 

^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

 

 

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

5/06/12 4:01:59 PM#5

Ill gladly take Darkfall or Mortal online combat over a WOW tab targeting mash fest with 5 skills any day of the week.

 

Hell it doesn't even have to be like TES SP rpgs.... at least make it like Tera or GW2..


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  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

5/06/12 4:04:31 PM#6
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

Take it as you will, but; Mortal Online

If a bunch of amatuers can get that close, then seasoned pros can nail it - the problem is that suits do NOT want to invest time/money/effort into creating or licensing an expensive engine - thusly, they went with the HERO one, because it's easy enough to push out a cookie-cutter one in record time. Sad.

I think the team behind HERO engine are just pimping their product out as much as possible, cutting back on licensing, making it a steal... I mean, why wouldn't they? It's already growing a bit tired because of SW:ToR, imagine what happens when 2-3 games exist that use it and are more "samey" than ANY two games could ever get, even if they tried to.

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  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

5/06/12 4:09:17 PM#7
Originally posted by caremuchless
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

If so how?

 

^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

 

 

Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

 

On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

 

If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

 

What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 4:11:11 PM#8

if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15111

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/06/12 4:16:53 PM#9
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by caremuchless
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

If so how?

 

^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

 

 

Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

 

On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

 

If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

 

What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

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  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

5/06/12 4:20:00 PM#10
Originally posted by caremuchless
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

If so how?

 

^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

 

 

 Meridian 59 did it 17 years ago, with slower processors and GPU's as well as dial up internet.

Some of you really need to move, that rock has got to be cramped.

  Ontblod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 159

Hey ho, lets go!

5/06/12 4:24:01 PM#11
Originally posted by Istavaan

if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

 

This!

+1

 

  TGSOL

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/11
Posts: 279

5/06/12 4:24:23 PM#12

I think if you asked every single TES fan, you'd find that the vast majority of people would rather have a small scale (2-8 player) multiplayer version of something like Skyrim than a generic WoW-esque MMO.

 

I know I'd choose Skyrim with a few friends over this MMO any day.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1116

5/06/12 4:27:18 PM#13

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

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  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

5/06/12 4:30:55 PM#14
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

5/06/12 4:37:43 PM#15
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 Some crazy scientist may end up creating a black hole a mile or so under Switzerland.  I'm pretty sure if that's possible, then doing something that's been done numerous times now is also possible.

 

The funny thing is, the leak never had anything in it about a dev saying that the combat mechanics "weren't possible".  They said that MMO players wouldn't "understand" how to play the game if it used the same "control mechanics", IE: if it was FPS style combat then we wouldn't understand how to play.

Am I really the only one that understood that they effectively implied that we're all a bunch of brain dead, chimpanzees who wouldn't know how to play a game we've been playing for over a decade if it was made into an MMO.  Or even better, that they're not trying to make the game for ES fans, but for WoW and DAoC fans?

 

Sadly, I have a feeling that they're also going to proov that consumers are to stupid to realize when a company just slapped a popular brandname on something and without actually giving us the brand that name is associated with.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1593

5/06/12 4:37:46 PM#16
Originally posted by caremuchless

 I'll make this short.

 

 I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

 But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

 

So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

 I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

There are a number of games that have near real time syncing of combat.  Doing it well in a open world isn't impossible but it does present some challanges.  Personally I think Bethsada is probably one of the few companies that has the resources to tackle it but apperantly not the will.

Elder Scrolls online without a huge open world and without fluid non tab targeting is going to feel odd.  I'm not gonig to bash the game yet until I learn more about it but it still feels like a odd design choice for the developers.  

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

5/06/12 4:38:03 PM#17
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

5/06/12 4:39:13 PM#18
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by caremuchless
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

If so how?

 

^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

 

 

Take into consideration that this is Zenimax and Bethesda here.  We aren't talking about a modified version of the hero engine, or anything along those lines,  if Bethesda wanted to (and if BioWare had wanted to)  they could have easily built and engine designed around whatever type of system they want to.

 

On top of that,  we've had games that utilize third person mechanics without tab targeting for over a decade now.  The technology has always been there in some capacity.  

 

If you are worried about the integrity of a games combat due to excess world size,  section it off,  cap zones or do whatever you need to... its not unheard of to have a very strong combat focused system with 64 players... and to be honest, I don't think it would necessarily be a complete failure to have a limited number of players in a zone if it meant keeping the integrity of TES in tact when moving to a multiplayer online space.

 

What people hear when The Elder Scrolls is said,  is they think of expansive worlds, lots of diverse abilities, and immersive gameplay....  that wouldn't change if you can suddenly play with *only*  100 players per zone...  in fact,  I think it would be playing more to their fanbase than what they are giving us now.  And thats speaking like technology and combat integrity is an issue.... which it isn't.  Other games have done it without remotely the amount of backing as Zenimax can provide.

The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

 

I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

 

TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

 

Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

 

The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5895

5/06/12 4:41:14 PM#19
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It is completely possible.

 

It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

  Gishgeron

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 1297

5/06/12 4:41:26 PM#20
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by PyrateLV

Not Possible?

 

These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

 

When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

 

more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

 

elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

 

  That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?

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