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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Raiding Theology, Evidences of the existences and attributes of the raider.

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73 posts found
  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

 
OP  5/06/12 6:43:32 AM#21
Originally posted by Meleagar
Originally posted by Sykoleisa

Hi-five's to those who get the title.

I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.

 

Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.

 

However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).

 

Any ideas?

Yeah. I hear they have those in just about every. other. MMO. in. the. world.  Go play one of them.

invalid point.

because GW2 has it's own play style.

If you say playstyle doesn't matter then I hear there's pvp in the majority of other games in the world, not limited to MMO's.

 

your move you close minded *****.

  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

 
OP  5/06/12 6:45:12 AM#22
Originally posted by Fozzik

My question wasn't rhetorical. A bit Socratic, maybe...but not rhetorical.

What does it hurt if other people are around when your guild is playing together?

 

It doesn't.

 

but equally it doesn't hurt for me and my friends/guild to be on our own, which is why I didn't reply, because I feel it's a moot point.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 6:49:51 AM#23


Originally posted by Sykoleisa


Originally posted by Fozzik
My question wasn't rhetorical. A bit Socratic, maybe...but not rhetorical.
What does it hurt if other people are around when your guild is playing together?


 
It doesn't.
 
but equally it doesn't hurt for me and my friends/guild to be on our own, which is why I didn't reply, because I feel it's a moot point.

Okay, so if it doesn't hurt, we're fine. They have tons of large-scale open-world content your guild can do together.


It in fact DOES hurt for you and your friends to have exclusive content, as has been explained to you several times now. Creating content exclusively for large groups means that a lot of players won't get to use that content. It's dramatically less efficient development on ArenaNet's part. Why should they spend time and money creating content for only a small percentage of players, when they can instead create content that the vast majority can utilize? Are you and your clique so important that a company should specifically cater to your needs, at the expense of the vast majority of their players? Clearly not.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 6:54:09 AM#24


Originally posted by Sykoleisa


Originally posted by Meleagar


Originally posted by Sykoleisa

Hi-five's to those who get the title.
I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.
 
Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.
 
However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).
 
Any ideas?


Yeah. I hear they have those in just about every. other. MMO. in. the. world.  Go play one of them.


invalid point.
because GW2 has it's own play style.
If you say playstyle doesn't matter then I hear there's pvp in the majority of other games in the world, not limited to MMO's.
 
your move you close minded *****.

So it's your contention that every game in existence should cater to you? GW2 has a unique play style, and you should be able to experience it with content specifically designed for your needs and desires, regardless of what it does to or for anyone else. Interesting.

Getting worked up and calling people names doesn't help you get taken seriously.

  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

 
OP  5/06/12 7:02:03 AM#25
Originally posted by Fozzik

 


Originally posted by Sykoleisa


Originally posted by Fozzik
My question wasn't rhetorical. A bit Socratic, maybe...but not rhetorical.
What does it hurt if other people are around when your guild is playing together?



 
It doesn't.
 
but equally it doesn't hurt for me and my friends/guild to be on our own, which is why I didn't reply, because I feel it's a moot point.


 

Okay, so if it doesn't hurt, we're fine. They have tons of large-scale open-world content your guild can do together.


It in fact DOES hurt for you and your friends to have exclusive content, as has been explained to you several times now. Creating content exclusively for large groups means that a lot of players won't get to use that content. It's dramatically less efficient development on ArenaNet's part. Why should they spend time and money creating content for only a small percentage of players, when they can instead create content that the vast majority can utilize? Are you and your clique so important that a company should specifically cater to your needs, at the expense of the vast majority of their players? Clearly not.

 

I <3 this thread.

 

I have PvPers telling me to play with the community and make friends.

and I have PvPers telling me that because I have friends we shouldn't have content that anyone with friends can do....

  ghost047

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/05
Posts: 608

Why worry about life, you won''t survive it anyway!

5/06/12 7:03:48 AM#26
Originally posted by Sykoleisa

I never used the term hardcore.

I never even implied I wanted raiding such as it exists today.

Maybe you never did, but those hardcore will ask for more and more, because they will go through them really fast and ask for gear at the end.

Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!

  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

 
OP  5/06/12 7:06:00 AM#27
Originally posted by Fozzik

 


Originally posted by Sykoleisa


Originally posted by Meleagar


Originally posted by Sykoleisa

Hi-five's to those who get the title.
I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.
 
Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.
 
However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).
 
Any ideas?


Yeah. I hear they have those in just about every. other. MMO. in. the. world.  Go play one of them.


invalid point.
because GW2 has it's own play style.
If you say playstyle doesn't matter then I hear there's pvp in the majority of other games in the world, not limited to MMO's.
 
your move you close minded *****.


 

So it's your contention that every game in existence should cater to you? GW2 has a unique play style, and you should be able to experience it with content specifically designed for your needs and desires, regardless of what it does to or for anyone else. Interesting.

Getting worked up and calling people names doesn't help you get taken seriously.

 

I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.

Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.

I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16683

5/06/12 7:10:30 AM#28
Originally posted by tazarconan
Originally posted by Fozzik

This discussion has been replayed about 45 times on these boards, and even more on other GW2 forums.


GW2 does have end-game progression. It's just not a vertical gear treadmill based on repetitive raid farming. There are other types of progression. I know, hard to fathom, but it's true.

How about random created dungeons with random created bosses for raiding? That would eliminate the Repetitive boring raid farming term. Dont u think?

Random abilities to bosses is not a bad idea at all, but why limit that to raiding? 

Random created dungeons on the other hand tends to be somewhat... random. Daggerfall was probably the game who had most random 3d dungeons ever and while some of them were fine others were hopeless. It would take a lot of hard work to make a good random dungeon system that actually would make dungeons of good enough quality. 

You could do as you say even if it is very hard, but GW2 is not really tha game that would need this stuff. A game like Rift on the other hand, or basically most themeparks would need this a lot more. But as I said, making a good random raid is really hard.

There are other possible endgames in a MMO than raiding.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 7:24:57 AM#29


Originally posted by Sykoleisa

 
I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.
Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.
I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

I'm not sure how PvP got involved in things, we weren't talking about PvP at all...are you assuming I'm a PvP player? I'm actually a 100% PvE person. You don't seem to be addressing the point we're making at all about large-group instanced content having too large a barrier to entry.

Just to humor you...you do realize that dramatically more people take part in PvP than take part in large-scale raiding? Add to that the fact that the only reason the numbers of people who raid is so high in "traditional" MMORPGs is because that's the only thing to do at max level...raid or quit. With alternative options available like there are in GW2, much fewer people would be interested in raiding anyway. So, catering to PvP players makes much more sense...there are a LOT more of them.

Probably good to quit while you're ahead...or at least not too far behind as of yet.

  Borluc

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/07
Posts: 129

5/06/12 7:28:23 AM#30
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
 

 

I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.

Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.

I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

Actually it is your close-mindedness that is the problem.  Let me use a saying that pve people have used for years when describing content that it outside the scope of the game design: "If you take resources from developing the game as it is supposed to be, you do not have as much energy going into the important aspects that the game revolves around." 

How does it feel?  I used to be on your side of the road, and I didn't like it either.   However, now I'm able to say that I LIKE the direction GWII has taken and I don't want them wasting time focusing on a feature that the game just isn't about.  There are many games that cater to your play style, so I'd suggest that you work on your charisma (hard for you) and convince your buddies to play one of those games instead. 

Your comment about pvp players not understanding community is just ridiculous.  The strongest and most tightly bound groups I've ever seen have been in games with pvp.  Sure they might not be nice to your group, but they do understand the value of each other, which is something that big raiding guilds know nothing about past who fills a random slot for X raid.

You aren't being taken seriously because you're basically sulking about the entire design of the game; claiming that taking valuable resources away from that design so that the devs can actively undermine the community they are trying to foster doesn't hurt anything.  You are right.   Best to give it up now and when you play GW II keep an open mind.  People who think that mmos can never change their stripes are about to be shocked.

 

  Mike-McQueen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/05
Posts: 248

5/06/12 7:33:58 AM#31
How about this: FUCK INSTANCING.

I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 7:36:40 AM#32


Originally posted by Jaeriyoz
How about this:

  Borluc

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/07
Posts: 129

5/06/12 7:42:12 AM#33
Originally posted by Jaeriyoz
How about this: **** **********.

See what years of playing raiding games that cater to a very small percent of the total playerbase has done to this poor boy?

  Butregenyo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/11
Posts: 485

5/06/12 7:46:37 AM#34

Iconic baddies in Tyria like Elder Dragons are far more superior,  compared to the scale of heroes' powers (chracters we play). With this i think world event style fight fits more to the lore.

24 iconic heroes beat Kralkatorrik doesnt go well with its lore.

Armies of all races united to defeat Kralkatorrik sounds a lot better.

-----

    Also, having a raid support means there will be a gear checked dungeon sequence: get T1 -> get T2 -> etc. which is a common method to sustain subscribers. GW2 do not need this.

   I think for your taste there are open world mini dungeons, (right now i only know of one, dont know the real detail about them) which you can go in with as many friends as you like and have cool puzzles, riddles, items (the one we've been to had a cool greatsword, flamethrower and a trident which any class could use and most needed to solve the puzzles) and decent boss fights with awesome underwater content.

  Sykoleisa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 41

 
OP  5/06/12 7:48:43 AM#35
Originally posted by Borluc

You aren't being taken seriously because you're basically sulking about the entire design of the game;

 

 

No I'm not,

 

If you'll recall, this whole thing started with why exactly it's not possible for there to be a tiny amount of content for people who want to play with friends, but not with random strangers. that's one thing, that has very little to do with the actual design of the game, so saying I'm sulking about the entire design of the game is fallacy.

 

I don't need to convince my friends to play some other game, I already know the majority of their answers: "do you really think there's a decent game coming soon that isn't GW2, because we've already decided that everything else that's out is not to our tastes?"

I would like to take this last of my moments in this thread to apologise. I had been given a reasonable answer in the first page, however I had not seen it until after I repled to Fozzik, which only continued a debate that eventually turned into flaming.

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1048

5/06/12 7:52:08 AM#36

What I would like to see are dungeons, very akin to the final dungeon from Final Fantasy VI.

A dungeon made for 15 people are 3 groups.  Whereas it's one large dungeon, the dungeon mechanics force players to split up from the very beginning. There's no "auto dividing" it's puzzles and events are just something you have to figure out while in there.  

Things in one part of the dungeon effect other parts of the dungeon.  At the end, one massive boss on the scale of the dynamic event bosses.  

This would be "GW 2's "answer for raiding and would be something that you couldn't just join, but that your guild has to schedule (just because of how special an instance it is). What this does is halt or limits the repeat behavior and really gears up the idea that this is a serious grind.  It also gives a strong reason for players to be in more than one guild, if they want to beat it.  

  Requiamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 2054

5/06/12 8:01:00 AM#37

 



Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Hi-five's to those who get the title.
I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.
 
Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.
 
However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).
 
Any ideas?

 

I think developer could do anything if they felt the need and had some idea to back them up. I personally could very easily imagine a kind of WvW conquest mmo against the machine,where solo, small group, guild and alliance alike would find their share in a pve setting. Player against mob faction or allied to them isn't a new idea, it never really flourished, but you know how much of those idea never saw the light after all? This is naturally if you can go beyond the Lineage2 world boss, WOW raid kind of pve, after all before 2k guilds used to go in dungeons to make their events and fight the boss in the last room, just like you did in arcade games. Rts solo games also have a similar setting after all. I don't know if its the idea RG had when he did Tabula rasa, seam like it was even if i didn't played that game then.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 9:53:41 AM#38


Originally posted by Sykoleisa

I don't need to convince my friends to play some other game, I already know the majority of their answers: "do you really think there's a decent game coming soon that isn't GW2, because we've already decided that everything else that's out is not to our tastes?"


Translated: "Just about every game released in the genre in the last 8 years has been created to cater to us, but we don't like any of those. We want to play this one game that isn't meant to cater to us, and we want them to change it so it does."

Yeah, entirely reasonable. *sarcasm*



I would like to take this last of my moments in this thread to apologise. I had been given a reasonable answer in the first page, however I had not seen it until after I repled to Fozzik, which only continued a debate that eventually turned into flaming.

My responses to you were entirely reasonable. They just weren't answers you liked or could refute. Sorry about that.



...so saying I'm sulking about the entire design of the game is fallacy.

You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

5/06/12 10:17:50 AM#39
Originally posted by Sykoleisa
Originally posted by TheTrueKing
Originally posted by Sykoleisa

 

However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).

Aside the fact that if it requires a huge group then once again we fall back into the old Big Raid dungeons that only a small percentage of people get to see to the end.

 

So Anet took those big raid dungeons / bosses and put them into the world.  Now think of this:

Your guild leader calls to arms all those in your ranks to grab their weapons and prepare for battle against a Shadow Behemoth!! (just an example)  In an orginized fashion he orders attacks and formations as you battle this giant creature.

 

onlookers standing around realize they can help too by rezzing downed allies and throwing a few shots at the boss.

 

Do you know what kind of epic story gets built when people who are solo, without a guild get to see a well trained guild in action take down a big boss.  You'll read things like "And I was there when this guild slain that beast, I even help!"  The pride a community can bring to each other by just the encouragement this game gives us to work together and not leave anyone out.  Even the little guy, casual player gets to not be left out of the good stuff and who knows it might make him want to learn to be a better player and strive to join your ranks.

 

I'm all for community building and helping others enjoy their experience more then they might think possible.

 

Raid bosses ;) why not let the little guy watch your guild OWN that big nasty?  Tyria has Raid style bosses as you indicated you already know best part is nobody can grief you for the boss, KS you or ninja the loot.

 

You see, this is the kind of ideas I was looking for, thank you.

But just one point, If these instance dungeons do not reward anything that would make them worth doing for people who don't like raiding (such the "best" gear, or guild PvP bonuses) the you are only doing this instance for the fun of it, and as such does only a few people seeing it matter?

I'm not asking for instanced raiding to be a focus of a clearly PvP oriented game, that's just not possible.

In my head I was orignal thinking of rewards being of large quantities of influence for you guild, but this wouldn't work due to being able to spend influence on PvP rewards (IIRC), however I do not see the harm in, say, a bonus damage vs. X-monster type, For example killing a giant dragon would reward with bonus damage vs. dragon type creatures.

That's kind of the point of the way the game is designed.  They don't WANT to cater to raiders.  Many other games exist that do that and do a fine job of it.  The point of Guild Wars 2 is to cater to another crowd entirely.  Many of us see the lack of raid style content as a selling point of the game and we would find the appeal diminshed if it were included in any form.

People like to say (often snidely) that GW2 is trying to cater to everyone.  Well they aren't.  Devoted raiders are one of these groups.  It's not a technical matter either.  I'm sure they could implement a raid-style system if they wanted.  It's a matter of developing a design philosphy and sticking to it.  Some will find that the game lacks certain things that they are after, but GW2 isn't a one-stop shop for all your gaming needs.  It will never be a sandbox, it will never have OWFFA PvP and it won't have raid content.  Many of us, probably most of us, want a game that does EXACTLY that. 

And really, since ArenaNet's ideas have proven to be exceedingly popular, what incentive do they have to change the formula now?  Why risk alienating a huge group of fans (and many paying customers) to entice a small group?

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

5/06/12 10:23:02 AM#40

Here's another reasonable answer to the apparent dilemma...

GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, so you can easily play it alongside another AAA MMORPG. When you want exclusive instanced content for you and your raid guild...play WoW, Rift, SW:TOR, or any number of other games. When you want to play GW2, play GW2.

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