It is not difficult to create challenges that cannot be solved simply with a bit of Googling. The rules of chess, for example, are so basic and straightforward that a child can play.  They are also freely available on the internet yet placing a halfway decent chess AI in a game could still mindblast a person of low or even average intelligence.  This is just an example to show that it is possible to create challenges that cannot be easily assisted.

I would love to see an MMO that actually presents a challenge beyond minmaxing your stats and character build.  I have a feeling that there are many intelligent people out there who would have no problem paying cold hard cash for a mentally engaging MMO. It's fun to pretend everyone is stupid but there are plenty of intelligent gamers in the world (millions).

Although it seems that the MMO playerbase might shrink proportionately to the intensity of the challenge, it may do the opposite and grow as it gains intellectuals from many walks of life who are not currently gamers.  In other words, if you replace the mindless killing of demonic bunny rabbits with events that are intellectually stimulating, MMOs may gain subscribers.  These new subscribers would be in the form of smarter people seeking a challenge.  Sure you might lose some idiots, some slackers, and some trolls. Is that a bad thing?

Take Facebook for example (I know this seems irrelevant; it's not.) Remember how it started as a thing for young people that was kind of cool?  Well they kept it intelligent, didn't dumb it down like Myspace, and now even older people have facebook profiles.  Virtually everyone seems to have a fb profile. If you build your technology intelligently, the money and the usage will follow.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

I don't understand the continued trend of time invested => advancement.

It has been that way for almost two decades; why can't we have puzzle oriented MMOs, or something that truly tests the abilities of the players? 

 

You don't necessarily need to have puzzles either to make something challenging. What if they took the challenging raid encounters found late game and put them in a less stat-demanding form at the beginning of the game?

 

I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests that are just timesinks and not challenges. You can still have RPG elements in a puzzle game i.e. advancement through improved ability instead of advancement through time invested.

 

 

It's ironic that you ask for something intellectually challenging yet you haven't figured out the answers to your questions.  Now if you claim to know it and just "want to see what others think" well BS to that.  I suspect you really don't want that or you would have figured it out and therefore this is really about something else.

I believe you might want to look at TSW. That is a game that is bringing in some major puzzle ideas which blow my mind.

Sure there's all that gear and gameplay stuff but the puzzles in that game sound so freakin cool. The idea that a player should alt-tab and start googling for answers is a good start. I believe the game even has an in game browser to accomodate this.

The execution is important. If people, even a  niche playerbase, embraces this fully and the devs don't screw them over then I think there's a good chance for more unconventional MMO puzzles.

(See I'm not just a GW2 fanboi haha)

Originally posted by Magnetia

I believe you might want to look at TSW. That is a game that is bringing in some major puzzle ideas which blow my mind.

Sure there's all that gear and gameplay stuff but the puzzles in that game sound so freakin cool. The idea that a player should alt-tab and start googling for answers is a good start. I believe the game even has an in game browser to accomodate this.

The execution is important. If people, even a  niche playerbase, embraces this fully and the devs don't screw them over then I think there's a good chance for more unconventional MMO puzzles.

(See I'm not just a GW2 fanboi haha)

Well I'm sort of awaiting TSW with bated breath; AO and AoC taught me not to expect much in terms of content delivery from Funcom.

If they will truly deliver some good puzzles and not some cryptic crap that is merely a guessing game is the big question and of course if they will do it in a timely fashion to justify a subscription fee.

Not if its elitist.

I love complex dungeon or gameplay that give a real challenge i remember Asheron's call 2 had some realy nice dungeons with alot of puzzles that gave a good challenge.

If games are made like AC2 with puzzles like that it would be awesome.

Originally posted by raww

It is not difficult to create challenges that cannot be solved simply with a bit of Googling. The rules of chess, for example, are so basic and straightforward that a child can play.  They are also freely available on the internet yet placing a halfway decent chess AI in a game could still mindblast a person of low or even average intelligence.  This is just an example to show that it is possible to create challenges that cannot be easily assisted. 

You know there are chess database websites that can recommend the best move.  Just cause its chess don't mean you can't find the answer easily on the internet :)

Remember the taper system of asheron's call?  I'm sure you guys remember how that turned out.

If I am perfectly frank: no. I want MMOs to be easy and relaxing. I want to feel like a strong hero who helps the downtrodden. Like Superman or Batman. It may be difficult from time to time. But no, I don't want difficult and I certainly don't want to think too much.

I think about lots of things. I wrote several books about politics and philosophy, and having two summa cum laude university degrees, I can claim I love to think and I am a fairly good thinker in some topics. But GAMES are relaxing, escapism for me. I just want to have an easy fun time in games and not again harsh, difficult, thinking.

EDIT: Also, there are studies which prove, that people are objectively getting dumber. People in western countries know less and less about things like history, literature, math asf. The literacy is continually dropping. Germany had in 1912 a mere rate of analphabets of 0.04%, last check in 2009 it was 8%. There are plenty of studies showing education is dropping, especially in the last 30 years. And I know who and what is to blame for that. But since that is a political topic, I prefer to keep my mouth shut.

Originally posted by Elikal

EDIT: Also, there are studies which prove, that people are objectively getting dumber. People in western countries know less and less about things like history, literature, math asf. The literacy is continually dropping. Germany had in 1912 a mere rate of analphabets of 0.04%, last check in 2009 it was 8%. There are plenty of studies showing education is dropping, especially in the last 30 years. And I know who and what is to blame for that. But since that is a political topic, I prefer to keep my mouth shut.

Dumb =/= Ignorant

I think people are getting dumber just because of lazyness though.  Answers come easy these days and theres hardly any reason to exercise your mind.  Sure you can take the time to sit there and calculate what the best dps rotation is or what the best way to spec your character but people would rather just look it up and hope that they person providing the info is correct.

Originally posted by Elikal

If I am perfectly frank: no. I want MMOs to be easy and relaxing. I want to feel like a strong hero who helps the downtrodden. Like Superman or Batman. It may be difficult from time to time. But no, I don't want difficult and I certainly don't want to think too much.

I think about lots of things. I wrote several books about politics and philosophy, and having two summa cum laude university degrees, I can claim I love to think and I am a fairly good thinker in some topics. But GAMES are relaxing, escapism for me. I just want to have an easy fun time in games and not again harsh, difficult, thinking.

 

EDIT: Also, there are studies which prove, that people are objectively getting dumber. People in western countries know less and less about things like history, literature, math asf. The literacy is continually dropping. Germany had in 1912 a mere rate of analphabets of 0.04%, last check in 2009 it was 8%. There are plenty of studies showing education is dropping, especially in the last 30 years. And I know who and what is to blame for that. But since that is a political topic, I prefer to keep my mouth shut.

Education dropping doesn't mean that the intelligence is. 

Game developers both MMO and singleplayer can't really afoard to make  a game that requires using your brian, they will endup alienate 90% of the gaming community, lets face it, gamers are stupid and lazy nowdays.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Game developers both MMO and singleplayer can't really afoard to make  a game that requires using your brian, they will endup alienate 90% of the gaming community, lets face it, gamers are stupid and lazy nowdays.

Lazy, yes, but as for "stupid": I doubt you can give an accurate estimation over that.

Originally posted by Elikal

EDIT: Also, there are studies which prove, that people are objectively getting dumber. People in western countries know less and less about things like history, literature, math asf. The literacy is continually dropping. Germany had in 1912 a mere rate of analphabets of 0.04%, last check in 2009 it was 8%. There are plenty of studies showing education is dropping, especially in the last 30 years. And I know who and what is to blame for that. But since that is a political topic, I prefer to keep my mouth shut.

Those "western countries" include USA and that brings the average down, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Elikal

EDIT: Also, there are studies which prove, that people are objectively getting dumber. People in western countries know less and less about things like history, literature, math asf. The literacy is continually dropping. Germany had in 1912 a mere rate of analphabets of 0.04%, last check in 2009 it was 8%. There are plenty of studies showing education is dropping, especially in the last 30 years. And I know who and what is to blame for that. But since that is a political topic, I prefer to keep my mouth shut.

Those "western countries" include USA and that brings the average down, I'm afraid.

WTF is an ANALphabet? I am glad we don't have to learn that here in the states and if it makes me dumb for not knowing my Analphabet then ignorance is truly bliss.

Modern mmorpg's are basically the easiest form of game you can play. They are the TV of games, almost on the level of farmville at this point in terms of the challenge they provide.

Most of your time is spent performing mindless tasks that are no more challenging than filling a bucket with water.

I think the reason for this is a combination of people becoming less open to new things in general and the simple fact that making a basic, low-input game is just easier (and cheaper) than making a deep and involving one. At least those are two possible contributing factors.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Torgrim

Game developers both MMO and singleplayer can't really afoard to make  a game that requires using your brian, they will endup alienate 90% of the gaming community, lets face it, gamers are stupid and lazy nowdays.

 

 "stupid": I doubt you can give an accurate estimation over that.

Spend an hour in any MMO chat and see for yourself.

Best way to accomplish that is by having people compete with eachother. Whether it's in trading, building, harvesting, crafting or pvp. In that sense sandbox games are more intellectually challenging I think. Any form of premade intelligent puzzles or complex encounter mechanics are eventually google-spoil prone. Still, I at least like to see some more intelligent writing and plot lines in any mmorpg. Heroesque cliche stories are boring me to death.

Youre late moo,theres already TSW if you want mental chalenge

www.thesecretworld.com

No quest trail,npcs just tell histories according to theyr own point of view,each npc may give diferent informations about the same situation/subject YOU decide what have to be done

Plus you deal with lot of clues,tips mysteries etc,the game is based in investigation in general

OB 11/may/12 release in june im already subscribed

TSW gogo!

MMOs are for the masses. The masses don't want to die, so the combat is easy. The masses don't want to feel stupid, so there ain't difficult puzzles. The masses don't want a challenge. If you create a challenging game, it won't be an MMO, because it will be a niche game not played by the masses.

AO?

Why can't the skill systems be complex and layered? It did get more cookie cutter latter, but still the variety and possibilities are great. I would love to have an other game with similiar system. Get away from level requirements and ask for more, allow equiping based on other equipment...