Originally posted by Mardukk

Why people are so obsessed with going back to the no progression/character building of 80's and 90's console game is beyond me.  I think it's some kind of backlash against "grinding"...which I don't understand.  Go play console games, stay away from MMO's if you don't want to build a character over the course of a long period of time.

Yet you feel the need to play GW2 and complain. Here is a novel idea... take your own advice. Skip GW2 as it is not your style... refrain from posting about it... and play something else. If you fail to do all three, your post above loses any credibility and is little more than trolling. 

The MMO genre is varied... It can accomidate everyone. Not every MMO has to conform to what YOU think an MMO should be.  

Character Progression in Guild Wars 2

Some people seem to be a bit misinformed. GW2 is not a game with out character progression, (with the exception of Stuctured PvP, which is skill based, arena PVP combat; featuring casual matches, formal tournaments and the ability to rent private, optionally password protected SPVP match servers).

There is character progression in GW2. It's a system with a lot of depth and level is only one element of it. Healing, utility and elite skills are all unlocked via skill points. You earn one skill point per level, but that itsn't enough to unlock all your skills. There are over 200 skill point challenges spread across the map and even though unlocking your utility and elite skill slots is level based, the skills themselves are not. Someone who takes time to hunt down and complete skill point challanges will have more skill diversity and will even be able to afford more high cost skills than someone who just gets skill points from leveling.

Skill point accumulation can continue after you reach the level cap.

Gear is still important in GW2. The max stat, level 80 gear represents a plateau of power that will not be extended by some endless gear grind, but you do still need to get that gear. There will be a number of ways to aquire max stat gear. Those wealthy enough may buy crafted, capped gear. Everyone else may spend hours aquiring their primary set and may also want alternative sets for different character builds or roles.

No one ever said that once you hit level 80, you are automatically done progressing your character. Just that once you do aquire your max stat gear, you won't have to worry about a gear inflation treadmill that will keep pushing the power bar higher and higher.

For completionists, there are tons of achievments in the game, some of which provide rewards beyond a feeling of self accomplishment. Guilds can be leveled through there own progression. World vs. World combat can continue to be meaningful and exciting well beyomd the point at which your character progression has been completed.

Not to mention that the game also has a system in place that scales your level down, to allow you to enjoy lower level content in a meaningful manner. Not all achievments you can aspire after have to be driven by level/power character progression.

There are some players who only seek to reach the level cap and then move on. Considering that GW2 content is designed to be played for the fun of it, not just to be a series of challenges to be over come on the way to "end game", it would be a shame for someone to approach GW2 with that mentality. However, at least the game looks to offer a fairly lengthy journey to the level cap, compared to many other contemporary MMORPGs. I'm also willing to bet that a good portion of those players will actually come to appreciate what GW2 offers beyond a leveling challenge and may find themselves enjoying game play where leveling isn't the end all. be all of MMO gaming.

So, the game does offer progression, but it's meaningful progression earned through meaningful and fun play and, beleive it or not, gaining another level doesn't always mean as much as players have come to expect from other games. I personally found skill unlocks to be more important than just gaining another level and I found myself spending most of my time playing content below my level. It was still fun, challenging and rewarding and I never felt I needed to move on before I was finished having fun with which ever region I was still exploring and adventuring in.

I am stunned that you used Pokket's video as reference for your ideas.  There is just so much thats wrong in that video.

Yes, I know these are her first impressions.  However, if you are going to take the time to make a 10 minute video featuring everything you do like and everything you don't like, than please take the time to make sure that your opinion has some validation behind it.

To start off my laundry list of complaints is her critique of WvW.  She begins by talking about the health of doors and the capability of an enemy team to repair a keep/tower.  Pokket then begins to critique that it takes too long to take down a door, especially when being repaired by the opposing team.  She says this while showing a clip of her elementalist autoattacking the door, even as far as saying "auto-attacking a door for another hour."  Really?  She says she spent most of her time in WvW, so my question is why are you wasting your time auto-attacking? She doesn't seem to know the importance of siege weapons, and then complains about the enemy team being able to repair the door even while under attack.  They are called siege weapons, emphasis on the word "siege". A well-supplied keep or tower is supposed to be able to outlast an enemy force.  That's what makes supply so important, it is working as intended.  She also never thought of attacking another door (for a keep) or attacking a portion of the wall.  In the video it clearly shows a reinforced door, that can and should be able to withstand an enemy force. 

And then she goes on to comment about the rewards, saying her 50 copper she earned from an hour long siege is not enough. She does not mention the amount of karma or glory she earned and seems to be ignorant of these two currencies.  She fails to understand that every couple minutes by attacking and failing to capture a tower/keep, you will get a gold medal in an event that gives you gold, karma, and glory.  The event is given because you failed to take the tower/keep after 5 or so minutes (I do not know the precise amount of time.) So you are not getting 50 copper for an hour long siege, but in actuality much more than that in gold, karma, and glory.   I also think that ArenaNet is trying to discourage hour long sieges, and they are trying to get teams to make efficient use of their time. If a keep is well stocked, maybe you should go and attack the supply routes feeding their keep.  Every single complaint about WvW just seemed to showcase how ignorant she was about this portion of the game.

She then continues by complaining about the lack of place off melee characters in WvW.  I think most of the community agrees in part with this statement.  However, she loses my sympathy when you begin to realize she doesn't know that every profession can equip a ranged weapon set.  (Yes, the guardian is at the moment at a disadvantage in this respect. The sceptor is a mid-ranged weapon that has several fundamental design problems.  ArenaNet has mentioned on the official forums that they were definitely interested in our opinion of the sceptor during the most recent beta.)  How can you pretend to be a gaming source and not know that? Please, do your homework before making a video for thousands of people to watch.  You are spreading misinformation.

Pokket then starts attacking the 5v5 competitive PvP aspect of the game.  She starts off by saying that it is just alright, and that it was nothing new.  Again, this is working as intended, its not supposed to be different from WoW's battlegrounds, its another form of instanced, but is intended to showcase balanced PvP.  I'm not sure she understands that it is supposed to be an Esport and that the gameplay does reward you. She complains that it does not give you gold.   It may not reward you in gold, but it rewards you in glory.  Glory can be used to buy new equipment, and I'm not sure what else you would need from this portion of the game.  You don't need money because you don't need to repair.  Achievements can also be earned that win you titles.  What else do you really want?

I think everyone has seen the "I want to see enemy names in WvW."  This is a rather big debate topic among the community, so she is right to have an opinion on this.  Her point is that it adds a sense of community.  She seems to miss the point that you change realms every 2 weeks.  So that "rival" example she elaborates on completely misses the point.  You will gain a sense of community on your server.  Gaining a sense of game community by fighting someone on another server is a very temporary thing.  After 5 different match ups over 3 months ago will you really care about that rivalry with that thief from server B?  The answer  could be yes from some people, but if you then ask, is that memory of your rivalry with that thief somehow less because you didn't know his name?  I don't think it does.  I think ArenaNet is trying to safeguard the average newcomer from being bullied by the opposing realm for doing something stupid.  This is not the type of community they are trying to create.  My solution, and the best solution I have seen from the community, is that there should be an option to turn your name on/off in WvW, with the default option as off.  That way you satisfy both sides and its a win-win for everyone.

Pokket is normally a decent reviewer and when she represents MMORPG.com, I would hope that she would be at least somewhat accurate.  I'm disappointed with her impression of the game, not because it's critical, but because of her overall ignorance of the game.  Its one thing to make an article and say, this is my first time playing the game and I knew next to nothing coming in to at least qualify what ever you are going to say.  However, she comes off as trying to be knowledgeable by referencing posts made by developers, etc. and yet she seems to be ignorant of several main features of the game.  If you are going to give impressions, please do your homework, and do it reasonably well.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

Some making the assumption everyone expects to play this game for 7 years.

If my first 150 hours on this game are going to be as amazing as i think they will  be. It'll be money good spend.

I do agree with that.

 

However, many people wil get upset, as they still want to play the game with the best game mechanics after those 150 hours. but they are missing the rewards system. It will give a very unruly community of MMO ers with no place to go. Playing the best game, and still feeling empty after playing it.  Just fun is not enough for the majorrity of the MMO players. and there will be an uprise as they dont want to leave the world of Tyria, but still feel unhappy and uncomplete in it.

Then they can do what people always do with a regular RPG... turn it off. Play something else. Do something nice for the wife and kids. Then they will most likely (if they had fun while playing it) come back and play the expansions.

EDIT: I would also like to add: People who actually enjoy the diversity of the class they play will probably want to tailor gear to specific things. For example, one might love their 2-handed wielding warrior and they capped the gear for it. Then they decide they want to try out a support warrior with a mace and warhorn. All of a sudden they realize the gear they are wearing isn't properly optimized because it doesn't have the most +healing or +boon enhancing stats on it. So they go hunt for a different set of gear, and slap in stuff into the slots to maximize their new playstyle. They then go out and PvE or PvP with their new playstyle to see if its any fun. I would argue, this is what gave a game like Diablo 2 so much staying power, since the actual game was very short and extremely repeatitive. The fun part was... hey, I wonder what a poison-based necro is like or a javelin based Amazon?

Im playing guild wars 2 for the story, with zero progression, i dont expect it to hold me longer then 2 weeks. worth 60 bucks i guess.

I'll make fun of pokket all day long for gaming and being a girl, but if she points out flaws and you discredit her for that maybe you should re evaluate your standards. I don't want to bash and turn this into a sexest thread but she just pointed out the obvious. She did not disrespect MMORPG, or her employer, or any other form that pays her. She told the truth and did not becoming entranced by what she was playing. 

For once, and only once I really truly applaud her for telling the truth.

Originally posted by hotix

I'll make fun of pokket all day long for gaming and being a girl, but if she points out flaws and you discredit her for that maybe you should re evaluate your standards. I don't want to bash and turn this into a sexest thread but she just pointed out the obvious. She did not disrespect MMORPG, or her employer, or any other form that pays her. She told the truth and did not becoming entranced by what she was playing. 

 

For once, and only once I really truly applaud her for telling the truth.

If her flaws are unfounded (ie: trying to spam the 1 skill to break down a door in WvWvW and complaining that its taking too long instead of getting supply, getting siege weapons etc.) then she is no less succeptable to criticism as any one else.

Originally posted by potis

I have known this site for years and years and years..and this is the first time i bothered to create an account to post.

I havent read every reply to this post but i had to respond.

GW2 is basically the next Jesus, its the new messiah everyone is waiting for and the problem is, 99.9% of the people waiting for it, are uninformed completely or havent played GW1.

All you have to do, is read different gaming forums.

You will read stuff like:

1)"Cant wait for GW2 PvP, WvWvW is gonna be so awesome"

Mistake one right there, you check the post of that guy, you check his signature, PC is a pile of crap from 4 years ago when even back then it was a pile of crap that will barely run GW2, so much to run it in a WvWvW with insane spells everywhere and hunderds around.

2) "I got bored of WoW so i will PvE in GW2"

Mistake two, people assume GW2 will have raids and content patches to add more raids <--This are the completely uninformed retards that will flock the game and create a massive problem.

3)"It will have so many players LOL gonna be next big thing LOL, of course will play it LOL"

As i already said, people view it as the next messiah, the same way they treated SWTOR, and every non-blind fanboy knows how that went.

 

The problem is that MMO players really have no clue what they want, and cannot understand themselves, how spolit they are.

There are two genres of MMO's, Asian Grinder games, and Western (American) raid ginders MMO, with a random e-sport MMO thrown in there every now and then with a combinaton of both.

Asian grinder game = Leveling is content, takes ages, there are barely any short of content updates, you all know what i mean, combined with Anime and flashy graphics and abilities to hide the lack of actual in-game depth along with insane amounts of farming and time to improve any item.

Western MMO's= WoW/AoC/Rift/SWTOR and others i forget, Max level asap-->Gear up-->Keep chasing gear every few months of actual new content while doing other activities meanwhile the raid times in the form of PvP/Achievements/Something else.

Random E-sport wannabe MMO thrown in there: GW1/Warhammer/GW2.

The problem is, people think GW2 is a full western MMO, when in reality its:

Asian Grinder flashy graphics with Western MMO leveling and an e-sport end game.

Dont get me wrong.Asian grinder graphics are awesome, make the game look better..Western MMO leveling, which is basically level by quests or events, is fun no matter what the game as long as its not tedious "Run for 3 hours to fetch me 5 pieces of meat from that other city" and e-sport end game can be awesome cause its a casual environment.

GW2 is trying the whole "event quest" approach, and some other new stuff to make the world more alive to promote PvP which is awesome, but the end fact remans.

Its endgame is PvP, in hopes of an e-sport PvP, which there hasnt been one for a few years apart from WoW arena.

GW1 sold many copies, it -never- had that many people online as sold copies.

Words around say, 12 million purchases of GW1 stuff, lets assume that with the expansions, if i am not mistaken (I havent played GW1, only played once on friends account back when it came out) there are 3 expanions + main game, aka 4 games, around 3 million different purchases give or take.

Thats still a lot, but no way in hell did GW1 servers ever had that many people online at the same time.

GW1 is a game that you played, explored, did some PvP, log on randomly whenever you remembered cause it was free anyway.

GW2 is gonna be the same.

Perfect, perfect sidegame MMO, but it cant be a main MMO (Unless you are so busy with your life that your gaming is 1 hour per week..)because it simply wont have the content and the gear progression chase.

The main mistake most companies do, is not give people something to chase for.

GW2's main aim is PvP, they need to add a grindy, but not annoying ranking system, make people chase it, that keeps people active and not the usual "OH YEAH, MY FIRST 200 HOURS WERE AWESOME, NOW ITS BORING!" Lets log off and check again in a few months.

This is what most companies arent doing well lately, they arent hiding the grind in other fun stuff.

There is no good open world PvP MMO out there since DaoC (Maybe Eve online, but you have to be  machohist to play that), its been 10 years since then, GW2 has a chance, it depends on how they will use that chance or fail with it.

It is not a main-MMO, but it can be the biggest sidegrade PvP-MMO easily.

 

TLDR:

People are deluded that GW2 will have raiding and endgame PvE content, others are deluded that their 400$ PC can handle WvWvW PvP when in fact they will barely be able to run around.

GW2 can be a perfect sidegrade PvP-MMO if they manage to do open world and big scale PvP properly cause there hasnt been any MMO like that since DaoC.

It cant be considered a main-MMO because it wont have any sense of gear or character progression, unless they add some PvP ranking system that causes players to chase and chase and chase rewards, always PvP ones obviously since GW2 is aimed to be a PvP game.

 

 

Lol? Why can't GW2 be your MAIN MMO?. It has more things to do than WOW. I can spend 8 hours a day for the next 5-10 years with this game. PVP is endless fun. That's why some ppl played Counterstrike and such for years and years.

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Originally posted by terrant
3) I WANT progression. I just don't want a mindless treadmill. I want to have fun progressing. And I want it to mean something. I always felt miffed that I could spend months working heard to geta particular epic or even legendary item in wow, and it was a paperweight within a few weeks of the next expansion launching.

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Originally posted by terrant
I'm interested to see what GW will do to deal with a player's need for gprogression in WvW.

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Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I loved SWTOR leveling for it's immersion and I don't see how GW2 will meet my expectations after SWTOR.

You might be surprised. I also played SW:TOR for the story but the only immersive thing in the game are these story cutscenes. SW:TOR's world itself feels empty and lifeless (and often copy and paste of the same corridors with just a few pcs. of decoration different), NPCs are just standing around doing nothing and there's even not that much of objects / buildings around that contribute to immersion other than the landscape itself. There's really not much to explore.

The world of GW2 feels very alive,  NPCs go about their daily business, have a lot of (voiced over) dialogue just in the open world and during dynamic events they are actually physically doing in the world what they say they're going to do. This feels a lot more immersive than just some cutscenes and then return to the bland world that SWTOR does. There's a lot of detail everywhere.

Because of this large amount of detail in GW2 it took me over 3 hours just to explore 1 city and I still didn't catch everything going on in it.

So it's what you prefer and what your definition of immersion is, watching some vids and then return to your fetch / kill 10 rats quests in a bland world, or exploring a very alive immersive world full of detail and along the way participate in events that are also quite immersive if you pay attention to what the NPCs around are actually doing instead of just completing the objectives.

The thread is pretty amazing imo, and show very well the real problems behind treadmill kind of gaming.
 
 
Use and throw away habit (be it in game when it come to leveling zone, as for entire games), mind boggling type of challenge since your character should handle the difficulty level rather than the player, infinite progression that look more like an addiction because it bring nothing at a personal player level but a kind of psychological void to fill (you play games for no reason but just getting pixelized rewards), the sensation you are just an awesome player because your toon make all the work for you (i win pvp)...
 
I don't really think the problem is about people hating treadmill or hating "player skill" progression, as this thread is kind of showing. I think people here just inflating their own taste to prove something to the other side, but all this is just lame smoke screen that hide way more important aspect behind it. Its clear we all like some kind of treadmill, as well as some kind of player skill, the people pretending they are on an off/switch are probably plain lying to themselves, pve, pvp or whatever doesn't matter here.
 
The problem is not about this treadmill vs player skill flame war, obviously people concentrate on this aspect when they should just step away a bit and try to get a better picture.
 
 
The problem is about game design, and why mmo industry use such a treadmill formula as their only formula. Anyone with an once of intelligence understand the industry use that formula because they get the best profitability with it, but the problem is that it begin to seriously eat itself up now. When you spend 100+ guys during 5 to 7 years and 10million dollar for a project people will use and throw away like toilet paper, winning all over the place how crappy you game is playing, well that can't go very well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that.

I'm Sorry but Pokket reviews are terrible. She goes off on wild tangents, compares game mechanics to other games without articulating the core of the mechanic, and I find it really hard to listen to people who keep saying "Y'know." because no, I don't know, thats why I am listening to your review.

Lucky for me I actually played in the BWE and I found it highly enjoyable and the PvP alone will be enough to keep me playing for months if not years.

I won't profess that GW2 is the best game ever, but it fufills my needs and wants as a player, and thats all I ever ask for: Fun.

Originally posted by Finit

(...)
I think everyone has seen the "I want to see enemy names in WvW."  This is a rather big debate topic among the community, so she is right to have an opinion on this.  Her point is that it adds a sense of community.  She seems to miss the point that you change realms every 2 weeks.  So that "rival" example she elaborates on completely misses the point.  You will gain a sense of community on your server.  Gaining a sense of game community by fighting someone on another server is a very temporary thing.  After 5 different match ups over 3 months ago will you really care about that rivalry with that thief from server B?  The answer  could be yes from some people, but if you then ask, is that memory of your rivalry with that thief somehow less because you didn't know his name?  I don't think it does.  I think ArenaNet is trying to safeguard the average newcomer from being bullied by the opposing realm for doing something stupid.  This is not the type of community they are trying to create.  My solution, and the best solution I have seen from the community, is that there should be an option to turn your name on/off in WvW, with the default option as off.  That way you satisfy both sides and its a win-win for everyone.

(...)

Seeing how "one month then pack your bags and leave" is the new standard, 2 weeks is more than enough time to create rivalries.

Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by terrant
3) I WANT progression. I just don't want a mindless treadmill. I want to have fun progressing. And I want it to mean something. I always felt miffed that I could spend months working heard to geta particular epic or even legendary item in wow, and it was a paperweight within a few weeks of the next expansion launching.

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Oh, so new players should never even get a chance to catch up with old players. Nice idea of "fun" you have here...

 

 

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Originally posted by terrant
I'm interested to see what GW will do to deal with a player's need for gprogression in WvW.

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Nothing. There's no such need.

 

Try not to put words in my mouth friend. I never said new players shouldn't get a chance to be on parity with the old. They certainly should have a chance. Any player that puts in sufficient effort should be sufficiently rewarded. 

What I SAID was that gear treadmills were stupid because they were treadmills. You're always pushing the rock uphill, but never really getting anywhere. If I get Uberlord's staff of superawesomeforever, I want that to mean something more than I have a slightly better weapon for a couple months/.

And if you think players in a pvp environment don't give a damn about progression, every game with leaderboards would like a talk with you. Don't dismiss the argument out of hand. Most players want some kind of sense of accomplishmet. I think when you read my post you misinterpreted me as saying "I want WoW-style progression" or soemthing even worse. Far from it. I want a game that lets my actions be meaningful. And GW2 is, to some extent, doing that. However, this is an MMO, and we could in theory be playing it for -years- if we like it. What's to keep us there? I hope Anet recognizes this and continues to give us something to strive for.

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Originally posted by terrant
Any player that puts in sufficient effort should be sufficiently rewarded.

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Originally posted by terrant
And if you think players in a pvp environment don't give a damn about progression, every game with leaderboards would like a talk with you.

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Ranks, ratings and leaderboards are OK. Perhaps even something server-wide to mark WvWvW victories. A good matchmaking system is absolutely necessary. New PvP and WvWvW maps in the long run. Guild vs. guild battles either on WvWvW maps or open world. Well, pretty much anything. Just not progressive gear rewards.
 

Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by terrant
Any player that puts in sufficient effort should be sufficiently rewarded.

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Certainly, by all means. Titles, achievements... this kind of thing. Clearly shows you put in sufficient effort.
 
But not gear. Gear progression destroys PvP and I want to have one, just one MMO where PvP isn't completely about grind. Think League of Legends in MMO suit.
 

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Originally posted by terrant
And if you think players in a pvp environment don't give a damn about progression, every game with leaderboards would like a talk with you.

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Ranks, ratings and leaderboards are OK. Perhaps even something server-wide to mark WvWvW victories. A good matchmaking system is absolutely necessary. New PvP and WvWvW maps in the long run. Guild vs. guild battles either on WvWvW maps or open world. Well, pretty much anything. Just not progressive gear rewards.
 

And I'm 100% OK with that. I didn't mean to imply I wanted gear progression. At least not on the wow-style treadmill. Cosmetic gear or something else that's tangible but avoids the treadmill (or makes it fun!) is what I'm suggesting

Most people will get their money's worth, yes. But when people start leaving because there are no more rewards to get (they've leveled the classes they're in to) it will not work out well. Unlike GW1, GW2 is a server based game. When servers start partially emptying WvW might well die out. So no, you won't be able to pick it up when you feel like it, unless something keeps alot of other players playing night after night. 

To me, there needs to be rewards, however small, for both WvW and pve. Make said power rewards not work in sPvP and we're good to go.

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Originally posted by Svarcanum
But when people start leaving because there are no more rewards to get (they've leveled the classes they're in to) it will not work out well.

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Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by Svarcanum
But when people start leaving because there are no more rewards to get (they've leveled the classes they're in to) it will not work out well.

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People quit gear progression games every day. Yeah, even WoW. You can't get 100% retention just because you add gear rewards. WAR had gear rewards and it's dead. AoC, dead. Rift, dead. SWTOR, dead. It's been proven time and again that gear treadmill doesn't make retention rate better at all. And somehow people still don't get it.

 

If it rains over an open grass field, the grass gets wet; however, just because the grass is wet, it doesn't mean it rained.

Originally posted by Svarcanum

Most people will get their money's worth, yes. But when people start leaving because there are no more rewards to get (they've leveled the classes they're in to) it will not work out well. Unlike GW1, GW2 is a server based game. When servers start partially emptying WvW might well die out. So no, you won't be able to pick it up when you feel like it, unless something keeps alot of other players playing night after night. 

To me, there needs to be rewards, however small, for both WvW and pve. Make said power rewards not work in sPvP and we're good to go.

As long as people can change server for free it is not really a big problem, people will just merge to servers with more players on naturally. Opening or closing servers will be fast and simple for ANET.

There are rewards for both PvE and PvP though, but not the rewards you might be used to from EQ or Wow.