It's a terrible thing to say, I defended the game against many people and in many ways I was right too.  I did enjoy my time playing, I still beleive a lot of people hated the game for who developed it rather then what it was. Saying that, I was wrong, I'm sorry, I thought the game would sustain me more long term then it did as a Bioware fan since BG1, (and I don't really support any other developers, I have a product based mentality).  Since I played EQ1 for 4 years COH for 3 years and WoW for 5 years I have had longevivity in MMO's before, I expected SWTOR to last me longer. 

I subbed for three months and thats up now, I won't be going back.  Why is that? I'm not so sure really, I do belive Bioware are doing there best but I can't shake the opinion that KOTOR 3 would have been the better option.  The game lacks something that makes me feel like I ,'have', to play, whether it's the uninspiring classes or the surronding gameplay of, 'kill smash quests', that I resent, but know I have to complete to do the class quests.

The question I have though is, was something like Bioware's approach to MMO's ever going to work? I never considered it before, but keeping everything so insular in terms of my character and how they were doing, rather there there interaction with the world, was a major problem.  I have been playing TERA and GW2 recently and though they lack in the personal story department area, what they both do well is that they bring something different to a world I share with other people.  It's also a world I have to group with others to succeed, something I feel I'm rewarded for.  Maybe it's new gameism, I won't be able to tell for a while, but I feel a sense of engagement with those worlds, espcially my limited play session with GW2.

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

The major failure of this game was EA's push to launch it for Christmas.

This meant the game released, missing many features that are expected of an MMO. Not only this, but it was also missing back-end features like the ability to do server transfers.

Considering this game's pull is that of the story, after release Bioware should have been hard at it developing new story and content. Instead they have been so busy fixing bugs and adding must-have MMO features, that the existing player base have simply run out of things to do.

They are now forever playing catch-up and without substancially more investment, will never be able to add content at a rate that will keep a player's interest.

The actual game 'model' had me wondering this from the start.

How can an MMO that relies on story as much as SWTOR does, ever be financially viable when the story, voice-overs and new content is so labour intensive and slow to produce?

Originally posted by jacklo

The major failure of this game was EA's push to launch it for Christmas.

This meant the game released, missing many features that are expected of an MMO. Not only this, but it was also missing back-end features like the ability to do server transfers.

Considering this game's pull is that of the story, after release Bioware should have been hard at it developing new story and content. Instead they have been so busy fixing bugs and adding must-have MMO features, that the existing player base have simply run out of things to do.

They are now forever playing catch-up and without substancially more investment, will never be able to add content at a rate that will keep a player's interest.

The actual game 'model' had me wondering this from the start.

How can an MMO that relies on story as much as SWTOR does, ever be financially viable when the story, voice-overs and new content is so labour intensive and slow to produce?

 

I agree with frustrating bugs, they were annoying but I think were both saying the same thing different ways :P

I.e. the story aspect limited your interaction with everyone else and as you say the ability to keep that pull towards the players to keep them subbing.  I honestly think if they had another 6 months they would have gone the same way.  They would have expected people to keep subbing for the, 'story', even if all the many bugs were fixed.  I think thats it's real failing and thats why it'd have been better as KOTOR3.

Fundamentally it's my view that the focus ona very insular story is why this game doesn't earn more subs from me. It's a design flaw that I didn't realise till I played other MMOS again/or new. 

Originally posted by Omnifish

Fundamentally it's my view that the focus ona very insular story is why this game doesn't earn more subs from me. It's a design flaw that I didn't realise till I played other MMOS again/or new. 

I don't want to be rude, but have to ask...  you heard no warnings about this before you bought the game?

A single player game with some COOP/MMO features that don't warrant the sub. It's at heart a SPG, good to keep you busy for a few months tops. When the story is over, then so is the game.

I never expected TOR to have any real staying power. MMO's aren't all about the story with tons of voiceovers. They spent way too much money in that department and hoped the sub would pay for that. It doesn't look like they'll be proven right anytime soon.

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

A single player game with some COOP/MMO features that don't warrant the sub. It's at heart a SPG, good to keep you busy for a few months tops. When the story is over, then so is the game.

I never expected TOR to have any real staying power. MMO's aren't all about the story with tons of voiceovers. They spent way too much money in that department and hoped the sub would pay for that. It doesn't look like they'll be proven right anytime soon.

 

I agree with this.  It's basically COOP game.  I played Battlefield games with more people in it.    They made quite a few bad design decisions from which it's difficult to recover.  They didn't even have common guild features in at release.  I left because my light side points were bugged and I couldn't advance.

I could really care less who made the game or any game.  Toys R US could have made the game, I don't care.  I judge a game by it's features and gameplay elements, not pedigree.

The worst offense about TOR is they left out the most important ingredient for me....the '?'.  There is no sense of discovery, of wonder, of intrigue, just lots and lots of mediocrity, excuses, and jabbering npcs.

Originally posted by Sandbox

Originally posted by Omnifish

Fundamentally it's my view that the focus ona very insular story is why this game doesn't earn more subs from me. It's a design flaw that I didn't realise till I played other MMOS again/or new. 

I don't want to be rude, but have to ask...  you heard no warnings about this before you bought the game?

I've seen that kind of reply so often.

The marketing of this game suggested it was everything to everyone.

I played the open beta and only managed to get to level 20. Leveling up your first character is the best experience this game offers and was quite enjoyable apart from the excessive travelling backwards and forwards over the same ground..

How could anyone have had the foresight to imagine there was absolutely nothing after level 50? Even if they did, perhaps they might have thought things would improve 2 or 3 months down the line.

Originally posted by jacklo

Originally posted by Sandbox

Originally posted by Omnifish

Fundamentally it's my view that the focus ona very insular story is why this game doesn't earn more subs from me. It's a design flaw that I didn't realise till I played other MMOS again/or new. 

I don't want to be rude, but have to ask...  you heard no warnings about this before you bought the game?

I've seen that kind of reply so often.

The marketing of this game suggested it was everything to everyone.

I played the open beta and only managed to get to level 20. Leveling up your first character is the best experience this game offers and was quite enjoyable apart from the excessive travelling backwards and forwards over the same ground..

How could anyone have had the foresight to imagine there was absolutely nothing after level 50? Even if they did, perhaps they might have thought things would improve 2 or 3 months down the line.

 

Agree with that really.

To reiterate I'm not disapointed I payed for it, I had a good three odd months out of it.  I had followed development for years before hand, the ideas behind it excited me and as a KOTOR fan I was keen on the game.  However I understood that the structure in place weren't particularly different, (dungeon/raiding grind).  Having played WoW for years I was comfortable with that, maybe I didn't anticipate my own changes in taste, perhaps I'm tired of those sorts of games. 

What jacklo elluded to and others have said I agree with, I did expect more then the story to keep me hooked longer.  Maybe it was the bland/lifeless world, maybe it was feeling of having a private adventure all by myself in an online world, maybe it was the forced bringing companions, maybe it was the lack of inspiring dungeons after the first one, (though to be fair some of the laters ones were more interesting storywise), maybe it was all of the above...

The story was a great addition to the MMO, unfortunately it alone is not enough to maintain a sub.

If SWTOR was buy to play, or if they had great open world PvP like Warhammer or GW2, or a LFG tool, or merged servers, or listened to beta testers, it would be more worth my sub.

At this point Im really wondering how they spent so much money, this game seems to be missing even the most basic features.  It seems like they lost thier way about half way through making this game and were never able to recover.  O well, at least there are good games on the horizon I can look forward to, Swtor is the biggest gaming disapointment for me ever.  Not just because the game was launched way to early, but also because it seems like everytime Bioware goes to fix something they just end up breaking it more. It looks like they are now actively trying to destroy the game before it has a chance to stabilize populations.

P.S. Another game system they spent entirely to much time on, or should of been at launch is the legacy system. For me it was pointless money sink as I already had 8 toons on my server before the system was rolled out. So I either delete a toon that is about level 20, or I reroll a new server. I dont know if Bioware fixed this by allowing more toons per server yet, but that was another dumb move by them.

First was EA Now Is Bioware and ty this will be my banned developers.

Originally posted by Omnifish

 

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

I've never cared about the player next door. I'm not hooked by TOR either and I've been long term player of other MMO's myself too. Unlike you though, I can't figure out why this one's not doing it for me. It's so solo friendly and I like playing solo but again I'm not wanting to play everyday.

I went form playing everynight and all weekend to a few nights and all weekends to now just a few hours on the weekend now. I subbed for 6 months in anticipation of being a long term player but now I see I've made a mistake. I do still like the game but after getting to 50 on a dead server, having to bypass most of the flashpoints and heroics because of that, I re-rolled on the Fatman. Now that I can do everything I simply don't want to. I got to 30 on one character and 24 on another and I'm feeling bored again.

Maybe it's because I always wind up burned out this time of year. The weather is better I can take my bike out again, go fishing etc., but I'm not doing those things either. Meh maybe I just need a new hobby.

Originally posted by Omnifish

It's a terrible thing to say, I defended the game against many people and in many ways I was right too.  I did enjoy my time playing, I still beleive a lot of people hated the game for who developed it rather then what it was. Saying that, I was wrong, I'm sorry, I thought the game would sustain me more long term then it did as a Bioware fan since BG1, (and I don't really support any other developers, I have a product based mentality).  Since I played EQ1 for 4 years COH for 3 years and WoW for 5 years I have had longevivity in MMO's before, I expected SWTOR to last me longer. 

 

I subbed for three months and thats up now, I won't be going back.  Why is that? I'm not so sure really, I do belive Bioware are doing there best but I can't shake the opinion that KOTOR 3 would have been the better option.  The game lacks something that makes me feel like I ,'have', to play, whether it's the uninspiring classes or the surronding gameplay of, 'kill smash quests', that I resent, but know I have to complete to do the class quests.

The question I have though is, was something like Bioware's approach to MMO's ever going to work? I never considered it before, but keeping everything so insular in terms of my character and how they were doing, rather there there interaction with the world, was a major problem.  I have been playing TERA and GW2 recently and though they lack in the personal story department area, what they both do well is that they bring something different to a world I share with other people.  It's also a world I have to group with others to succeed, something I feel I'm rewarded for.  Maybe it's new gameism, I won't be able to tell for a while, but I feel a sense of engagement with those worlds, espcially my limited play session with GW2.

 

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

I played the first month and a half and i just had to cut my losses.  For me, it was really about fundamental, core design choices.  That game COULD have been the second coming, alas it wound up being the single largest disappointment i've played and the lessons learned from that will prevent me from even winking at the Elders Scrolls Online. It screams, " YOU JUST WENT THROUGH THIS ' right in my face.  

The Idea of the The Old Republic itself was a success, but the moment they moved from that and decided design choices and what to cherrypick from other popular games, they began to fall off the cliff.  Their IP got to where it was in popularity because of it's amazing creativity and uniqueness, giving us Star Wars in a different way.  They added to a universe that, to that point, was seemingly perfect and held dear by fans around the world.  Almost no one can do that and succeed.  Bioware did and it put them on the map immediately.  My question, is why deviate from an amazing formula of creativity and uniqueness that garnered success just to take that IP that was so hard to craft, take that and copy paste, instance, and shard to death one of the best titles ever?  

I gave it a legitimate shot, but i knew early on that the design choices would fubar this game. it'a a shame what happened.  On that note, there are still people playing the game and will staunchly defend it, which is their right.  We're all just trying to find a good game to play here on these forums and i'm quite sad the game did not meet your expectations.  Here's to finding one you can call home.

Originally posted by Omnifish

 

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

No, for me TOR has been more fun than I've ever had in an MMO before. I don't care what the "crowd" thinks, as their not the ones paying my sub. All games get old at a certain point and I know there will come a time when I decide to take a break from it. I know a lot of people on this site think MMOs should be a place to live a second life in for years and years, but I never have., If I quit TOR tomorrow I will not consider my time spent a failure. I just don't get the mentality of some people that think that just because they quit after leveling a character to max and playing for months that their time spent was wasted because they didn't feel like spending the rest of their gaming life there.

KOTOR 3 with co-op for flashpoints and operations would have been a better choice.

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Originally posted by ktanner3

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Originally posted by Omnifish
 
So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

---

No, for me TOR has been more fun than I've ever had in an MMO before. I don't care what the "crowd" thinks, as their not the ones paying my sub. All games get old at a certain point and I know there will come a time when I decide to take a break from it. I know a lot of people on this site think MMOs should be a place to live a second life in for years and years, but I never have., If I quit TOR tomorrow I will not consider my time spent a failure. I just don't get the mentality of some people that think that just because they quit after leveling a character to max and playing for months that their time spent was wasted because they didn't feel like spending the rest of their gaming life there.

---

I like Sw:tor. I just don't love it. I played EQ1 for years and many other mmos since. They are all just too easy since. I had high hopes for the crafting upgrade in the latest patch but was disappointed that all the good items they added were FP/Ops drops and they completely skipped over the unfair armstech recipes. I am also very concerned about their massive stat boost on higher tier gear. If it continues, in 6 months, top tier armor will be so much more powerful than tier 1 stuff as to render level 50 content trivial (almost that way now) without artificially giving mobs abilities out of line with todays game. I liked the story based quest driven leveling. I also appreciated the ability for those that didn't like it to level via pvp. Experience from mobs was lacking so a pure grinding leveling method isn't really possible though. The quest and pvp rewards are way to much, gear is way to easy to get and leveling just from quests to 50 you can skip 25% of the content and still make it with quests to spare. Even end game gear is simple to get, as 2-3 weeks after gaining level 50 you can be fully decked out in raid or pvp gear. This doesn't do much for longevity or a feeling of accomplishment. When you raiding in early MMOs, and even early WoW, you appreciated the armor drop you got much more than anything here. I am sorry to let my sub expire, but I just don't feel like playing. The bugs/missing features never really bothered me as most bugs have been fixed and features are being added so those are something to look forward to. It just wasn't enough

One last thing that bothered me, at least playing Alliance, BROWN. All the clothes and many of the worlds were just different shades of brown and grey. I logged into WOW when I got a scroll to upgrade to cataclysm, and the first thing I saw was one of my lowbie toons, level 9, wearing a vibrant magenta robe. While WoW might be a little too much color and cartoon for many players, not having any color is depressing. I actually made my level 50 gear out of white armor because it wasn't brown. 1.2 didn't seem to touch this.

The biggest failure was teh the people who made SWTOR were not the ones who made KOTOR.   I still find it fun though. I treat it as a single player RPG wit ha chatroom

Ive said it again and again, if you like traditional MMO gameplay and like a good story and were tired of the fantasy genre, this game is perfect. If you are a long time gamer, or a sandbox person, who is just tired of the traditional genre, it wont work for long. If you are a fan of KOTOR and play it as such..even single player without anyone..it is also a good game. For me personally, I loved the beta of Guild Wars too. Same type of excitement I got when I first did a Public Quest in Warhammer. Like Warhammer, that game is very population dependent, so we will see what happens 6 months after release. I see myself playing both games in parallel. I like SWTOR, but the biggest issue I have is that they need to make the game feel more alive, like Divinity Reach in GW2, regardless if peoples PCs take a performance hit. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Omnifish

 

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

No, for me TOR has been more fun than I've ever had in an MMO before. I don't care what the "crowd" thinks, as their not the ones paying my sub. All games get old at a certain point and I know there will come a time when I decide to take a break from it. I know a lot of people on this site think MMOs should be a place to live a second life in for years and years, but I never have., If I quit TOR tomorrow I will not consider my time spent a failure. I just don't get the mentality of some people that think that just because they quit after leveling a character to max and playing for months that their time spent was wasted because they didn't feel like spending the rest of their gaming life there.

What you describe is a single player RPG. MMO's aren't designed to be played for a few months and then move onto something else.

EA tried to sell a single player RPG as a MMO and it failed.

Originally posted by Soandsoso

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Omnifish

 

So has SWTOR failed for you as a player because you didn't need to care about the player next door? 

No, for me TOR has been more fun than I've ever had in an MMO before. I don't care what the "crowd" thinks, as their not the ones paying my sub. All games get old at a certain point and I know there will come a time when I decide to take a break from it. I know a lot of people on this site think MMOs should be a place to live a second life in for years and years, but I never have., If I quit TOR tomorrow I will not consider my time spent a failure. I just don't get the mentality of some people that think that just because they quit after leveling a character to max and playing for months that their time spent was wasted because they didn't feel like spending the rest of their gaming life there.

What you describe is a single player RPG. MMO's aren't designed to be played for a few months and then move onto something else.

Funny, because that is exactly what most players do.