Originally posted by jondifool

 Start here

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/336987/The-Tao-of-Arenanet.html

and come back after that 

This helps a lot, thanks. I found the Mass PvP section especially interesting. Do you know if there's pvp in the game world itself? And if so, does your faction's success in pvp have any consequences on the players in your faction?

Also, the flexible classes seemed more similar to what TESO is going for that WoW, so that's helpful.

Originally posted by romanator0

My point wasn't about exploration. My point was that in WoW nothing happened unless you made it happen and you had no freedom within Blizzard's pre-defined paths.

In GW2 things happen by themselves and players have the freedom to do which content they please at any time in an area rather than being put through a linear path.

So NPCs carry out quests and actions regardless of whether the player joins in or not, right? Then what do the NPCs do when they finish their quests? Do they repeat it? Do they move onto something else?

From watching the video that someone posted earlier in the thread, it seems like the NPCs sort of loop sequences of actions. So is the world changing permanantly as the player progresses through it, or is it changing momentarily and then resetting?

I'm also not really getting how GW2 has more freedom than WoW. It seems that you have a bunch of options as to which quests you want to do in GW2, but you have this in WoW as well. I think i'm missing something.

Originally posted by Vesavius
 

ok, taking you at face value, which is probably a mistake, but...

 

Your in the wrong forum tbh.

Your competition won't be between GW2 and TESO by the time it gets here, it will be with Archeage. You would be better off in that games forum asking why people are not calling AA a WoW clone. GW2 is irrelevant to TESO... you do not have to understand GW2 to understand anything about what that game may be.

I have a feeling that AA supporters will just sneer at you though, when you look at the two games comparative feature lists I mean.

I'm not worried about GW2 competing with TESO or anything, it's just that people are arguing over whether what we have seen from TESO so far more closely emulates GW2 or WoW. I'm just trying to figure out what the differences between the games are (admittedly I don't know much about GW2).

Originally posted by jakojako

Edit: I also never gave WoW credit for inventing anything... It didn't.

Alright then try using "EQ" clone instead b/c that's where it all started.

If you want to call GW2 a clone of anything, get it straight and call it a DAOC clone or something more imaginitive, even if the only reason you're here is for the sake of argument.

If you aren't actually interested in learning anything in-depth about this game that's fine too but next time try being open about that instead of trying to be sneaky.  Even over the internets, some people can sense bad acting.

PS:  That Elder Scrolls thing had an honest to god chance of being Awesome if it had organically grown out of Oblivion's designs.  But It didn't and it's just been stealing every popular feature from every other MMO it can.  Sorry to hear you're having trouble defending it, but have you considered yet that maybe there's a reason for that?

Originally posted by jakojako

I've been googling for differences between this game and WoW, and almost every article I see just throws out a bunch of moot points in a fanboy craze. Example being this article:

http://news.mmosite.com/content/q/2012-04-27/guild_wars_2_is_it_just_a_wow_clone_1.shtml

So far I understand:

*You are limited to the amount of skills your character can use

*You can engage in high level pvp with a low level character (the game autoscales you)

...and that's pretty much it. Any help is appreciated, thanks!

MMORPG's are based on archetype..

GW2 is an Open WOrld, thus even if the mechanics are the same as another game, the gameplay will be much different, etc..

Originally posted by iller

Originally posted by jakojako

Edit: I also never gave WoW credit for inventing anything... It didn't.

Alright then try using "EQ" clone instead b/c that's where it all started.

If you want to call GW2 a clone of anything, get it straight and call it a DAOC clone or something more imaginitive, even if the only reason you're here is for the sake of argument.

 

If you aren't actually interesting learning anything in-depth about this game that's fine too but next time try being open about that instead of trying to be sneaky.  Even over the internets, some people can sense bad acting.

 

 

PS:  That Elder Scrolls thing had an honest to god chance of being Awesome if it had organically grown out of Oblivion's designs.  But It didn't and it's just been stealing every popular feature from every other MMO it can.  Sorry to hear you're having trouble defending it, but have you considered yet that maybe there's a reason for that?

I (and many others) use the term WoW-clone because it's the most successful MMO out today, and it's apparant that MMO developers today are taking ideas from WoW because of its success. They aren't looking at EQ for inspiration.

I also never called GW2 a clone of anything, I don't know nearly enought about it to make those assertions.

I'm also not trying to defend TESO (as of right now I'm convinced it'll flop), I'm just trying to figure out which game it most resembles. It is interesting that you said 'DAOC clone' because TESO seems to draw a bit of inspiration from DAOC (at least with the 3 factions)

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by iller

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by jakojako

...just throws out a bunch of moot points in a fanboy craze...

 

And there goes any inclination I ever had to help you out with some answers.

 

or....  there goes any inclinition to believe it was a serious question in the first place.

 

...And honestly, why would we want to have to play along side anyone who thinks it has anything in common with WoW?  Keep those folks away please.  It's bad enough we have a ton of Ex-WoW players as it is.

Sorry if my OP came off as flamebait, I don't intend for that. The reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm interested in TESO, and people keep arguing over whether TESO is a WoW clone or a GW2 clone.

I'm honestly just wondering what's so different between WoW and GW2 that causes this argument in the first place.

Edit: I also never gave WoW credit for inventing anything... It didn't.

Seems like they removed everything from the game that made elder scrolls games so special

Originally posted by adam_nox

New details have emerged, and I think I might be sick.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/337278/20120504/elder-scrolls-online-game-details-mmorpg-announcement.htm

First a real gem:

---

The game will also use a hotbar to activate skills like many classic MMOs and will vissually resemble other current online multiplayer games, including "Star Wars: The Old Republic."

---

oh.. kay what else:

---

Players will not be able to transform themselves into werewolves or vampires and there will be no flying mounts, player housing, non-playable character (NPC) romance or marriage, and no dragons in the upcoming game.

---

and:

---

the game will use genre standards like classes and experience point based leveling up.

---

but wait it gets better:

---

"Elder Scrolls Online" will feature raids and heroic mode for its dungeons

---

Surely that's all the bad news... what... oh god make it stop:

---

The combat system will not play out in real time. Instead it will be based on a stamina bar, allowing the player to sprint, block, interrupt or break incapacitating effects.

---

 
There's no sadface that can properly describe this, if it's true.

 

I dont know what TESO will be, but it looks to me that  they follow the WoW road.

Originally posted by jakojako

I'm also not trying to defend TESO (as of right now I'm convinced it'll flop), I'm just trying to figure out which game it most resembles

You're not alone then....  But be sure to come back and let us know your findings if it ends up stealing too much from GW2 like I expect it to

So NPCs carry out quests and actions regardless of whether the player joins in or not, right? Then what do the NPCs do when they finish their quests? Do they repeat it? Do they move onto something else?

I linked a video earlier that shows an example of what happens to one NPC after the event he kicked off is finished.

From watching the video that someone posted earlier in the thread, it seems like the NPCs sort of loop sequences of actions. So is the world changing permanantly as the player progresses through it, or is it changing momentarily and then resetting?

Events cycle, they do not reset. If a town has been wiped out by an enemy it will remain wiped out until someone rezzes everyone and takes it back from the enemy (which would be conveyed through an event). However, the town will be attacked again sometime, maybe by the same enemy, maybe by another.

I'm also not really getting how GW2 has more freedom than WoW. It seems that you have a bunch of options as to which quests you want to do in GW2, but you have this in WoW as well. I think i'm missing something.

In WoW you may have a quest to kill X of a mob, and a quest to collect Y off a mob. They may or may not be the same mob. If you kill X-2 of the mob for the first quest, will you get credit for what you've done? If you collect Y-4 of an item will you get credit for what you've done? Yes, you can opt to take the first quest and not take the second quest, or vice versa; in that sense you have "options." There is a breadcrumb trail where you'll eventually be led to "level appropriate" areas once you've completed the quests (in appropriate order, in the case of prerequisite quests) in another; once you've left an area, you essentially have no reason to go back, because you won't get XP for killing anything in the area, you won't have quests in that area, etc.

In GW2 there may be an event that asks you to kill mobs and put out fires. You can kill any number of mobs, put out any number of fires, or opt to only kill mobs, or only to put out fires. You will still be rewarded for your participation to the extent that you participated. You can wander off, distracted, after only having participated halfway to the conclusion of the event, and you will still be rewarded with a bronze medal (and according amount of gold, exp, and karma currency) for the work that you did. There is no breadcrumb trail, merely suggestions for areas that have "activity" going on. You can do these in any order (one event doesn't unlock others). There are recommended level ranges, but these can vary and scale based on the participants.

Further, you are rewarded commensurate with your level, even if you are in a lower-level area, due to level scaling.

This is what is meant by freedom.

WoW is carrot on the stick, Gw2 is not.

Originally posted by sidhaethe

Agreed with the above poster. If you reduce an MMO into its components too much, everything ceases to be distinct. The fallacy is called reductio ad absurdum for a reason :).

This is really what I'm trying to do though so I can understand whether differentiating between GW2 and WoW in comparing similarities to TESO is meaningless.

An example:

TESO's combat is autotarget with hotkeys; So is GW2's and WoW's

However, TESO's class system seems to be such that you can be whatever kind of character you want to be, and there really aren't any classes. This seems to be more similar to GW2.

I'm really looking for those kinds of things that reveal TESO to be more of a GW2 clone or a WoW clone.

If most qualities end up boiling down to be the same in all three games, or if TESO has about the same number of GW2 qualities as WoW, then I can conclude that the argument over whether it's a WoW clone or a GW2 clone is meaningless, because it would be both.

Originally posted by sidhaethe

In Guild Wars 2, let’s take the same set up and apply it to a dynamic event. As I approach the fortress the commander runs up to me and says out loud for everyone in the area to hear that there are zombies in the local swamp, they are building up to attack his fort and someone had better do something. I head to the swamp and notice that the usual wildlife is gone, having been slain by the zombie horde (you actually get to see this happen as the event starts) when I enter the event radius I have the objective of “Cull the Zombie Horde” followed by a percentage indicating how much of the horde remains and a timer. I start killing zombies as the timer counts down. If I and any other adventurers in the area can cull the horde down to 0% before time expires then the remaining zombies will flee and disaster has been averted. I’ll automatically receive a reward, the fortress remains safe and the original wildlife will return to the swamp. If I fail to cull the horde and the timer reaches zero then the zombies will all shamble out of the swamp and attack the fortress. I have failed the event but now a new event presents itself where I can defend the fortress from the horde. If the fortress is overrun it will remain occupied by zombies until cleared, a valuable travel point will be lost, merchants and other NPC’s will be unavailable. My act of killing the zombies actually protected the fortress with the consequence of possibly losing the fortress when I failed the event.

This is really cool, and seems to coincide with what the GI article on TESO was explaining about a dynamic world.

Originally posted by sidhaethe

In GW2 there may be an event that asks you to kill mobs and put out fires. You can kill any number of mobs, put out any number of fires, or opt to only kill mobs, or only to put out fires. You will still be rewarded for your participation to the extent that you participated. You can wander off, distracted, after only having participated halfway to the conclusion of the event, and you will still be rewarded with a bronze medal (and according amount of gold, exp, and karma currency) for the work that you did. There is no breadcrumb trail, merely suggestions for areas that have "activity" going on. You can do these in any order (one event doesn't unlock others). There are recommended level ranges, but these can vary and scale based on the participants.

Further, you are rewarded commensurate with your level, even if you are in a lower-level area, due to level scaling.

This is what is meant by freedom.

That helps a ton, thanks! So the GW2 is more based around exploring the world as opposed to WoW where the objective is to get max level and raid/pvp from then on.

Originally posted by jakojako

That helps a ton, thanks! So the GW2 is more based around exploring the world as opposed to WoW where the objective is to get max level and raid/pvp from then on.

You got it :).

---

Originally posted by jakojako

---

Originally posted by sidhaethe
Agreed with the above poster. If you reduce an MMO into its components too much, everything ceases to be distinct. The fallacy is called reductio ad absurdum for a reason :).

---

This is really what I'm trying to do though so I can understand whether differentiating between GW2 and WoW in comparing similarities to TESO is meaningless.
An example:
TESO's combat is autotarget with hotkeys; So is GW2's and WoW's  

---

This is pretty common misconception about combat. In GW2 you don't have to target anyone. You can fire your bow and it will shoot in front of you and hit anyone that happens to be there. Same with targeting: if you target someone and fire your bow you will fire bow towards that target, if something (or someone) is on the way of your arrow you will hit that object instead of your target. That is huge difference in how combat works and feels, not to mention it is lot more reactive and action oriented. WoW relies more on skill rotations and stuff like that which don't really exist in GW2.

Originally posted by vee41

 

---

Originally posted by jakojako

---

Originally posted by sidhaethe
Agreed with the above poster. If you reduce an MMO into its components too much, everything ceases to be distinct. The fallacy is called reductio ad absurdum for a reason :).

---

This is really what I'm trying to do though so I can understand whether differentiating between GW2 and WoW in comparing similarities to TESO is meaningless.
An example:
TESO's combat is autotarget with hotkeys; So is GW2's and WoW's  

---

 

This is pretty common misconception about combat. In GW2 you don't have to target anyone. You can fire your bow and it will shoot in front of you and hit anyone that happens to be there. Same with targeting: if you target someone and fire your bow you will fire bow towards that target, if something (or someone) is on the way of your arrow you will hit that object instead of your target. That is huge difference in how combat works and feels, not to mention it is lot more reactive and action oriented. WoW relies more on skill rotations and stuff like that which don't really exist in GW2.

absolutely as you say.

i was unsure about the combat before i played it, thinking by the videos it did appear to just be another wow style combat game with even fewer hotkeys.  was pleasently surprised to find it really did feel new and uniqe.  it is very fast paced.

and you can play it like WOW if you like though.  You can stand there tabbing through targets and just using your skills on cooldown, but someone who uses the system to its fullest is really going to be a lot better than you if you do.

OMGawd, I'm so sick of everyone comparing every other mmo to wow.  Wow clone this wow clone that, especially when wow was a clone of EverQuest.

If everyone is so fixated on calling everything a wow clone, let me ask you this...

What would make an mmo NOT a wow (EverQuest) clone?  While you're at it, make a list of mmo's you think aren't a clone of another game, not even specifically wow.

edit:  directed toward OP...not trying to hijack thread.

Originally posted by romanator0

WoW: Enter quest hub -> ! -> do stuff -> ? -> get reward -> repeat step 1.

GW2: Run around and do things with the people that are there.

this is pretty much it.

WoW dumbed down its own mechanics so hard that peeps dont even need to talk to anybody anymore when they do things,close to single player experience.

now GW2 takes this to the max,theres no need for wowtools even anymore,everything is so protected and automated that single player experience is reached.

what happens in this product when server is empty?does it fill player spots with NPCs? so peeps can do massively multiplayer online role playing ?

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by romanator0

WoW: Enter quest hub -> ! -> do stuff -> ? -> get reward -> repeat step 1.

GW2: Run around and do things with the people that are there.

this is pretty much it.

WoW dumbed down its own mechanics so hard that peeps dont even need to talk to anybody anymore when they do things,close to single player experience.

now GW2 takes this to the max,theres no need for wowtools even anymore,everything is so protected and automated that single player experience is reached.

what happens in this product when server is empty?does it fill player spots with NPCs? so peeps can do massively multiplayer online role playing ?

 

How you define this 'single player experience'? You have other players around you and you work towards a common goal, seems multiplayer to me.

Is it lack of talking to each other? Lack of /say is actually a big minus, I recall devs saying though that it will be implemented. 

Lack of grouping in events? Why you need some generic 'group' to make game multiplayer?

Here are some major points of difrence between the two.

Dynamic events: no quests to pick up or turn in, its all in the world around you if you preticpate in an event you are rewarded.

Personal Story: RPG aspeict of the game with overarching main storyline, what you do in your personal story effects how npc's treet you in the game ( although your allways a Hero, its your story!)

World vs World vs World: pvp is just amazing sege wepons, keeps and Seaging the keeps! this type of seage warfare is very difrent then what is currently in wow this harkens back to Dark ages of cammalot.

Skill baised Combat(twitch): You cant just stand in one place mashing your skills over and over you have to dodge out of attacks watch what is around you and react accordingly. If you do stand in one place and spam skills you die, and you die fast!

You mentioned that you are limited to the skills you  have, this is not correct you are limited to 10 skills on your bar first five are baised on what wepons you have equiped the sixth skill is a healing ability (everyone can heal themselves) and the last four are class skills which there are qite a few of for each class and can be changed out on the fly while not in combat.

For pvp when you enter the w vs w map you are bumped up to max lvl in order to be competitive in pvp, but you can also gain experince in w v w, there are dynamic events there, you can lvl up to max lvl without doing anything else but pvp.

As it pertains to comparisons with TESO, from the feature list that I had read of the game, here's the reasons why I find comparisons with GW2 and WoW apt, and what compares to which game:

The basic combat mechanics and gametype seem to be heavily inspired by WoW.  The majority of the game content is in quest form, and combat is trinity (tank/healer/dps) based with tab-targeting and hotkeys.  The endgame appears to be heroic dungeons + raids, like it is in WoW and it's ilk.  Most of these features are found in numerous other MMO's, but since WoW is the 800 pound gorilla in the MMO market, that's the MMO that these "standard" features tend to draw comparisons to.

Along with the WoW-like things, a number of features they talked about are things that GW2 is doing that WoW didnt. Using a spinning attack inside a firestorm causes fireballs to shoot out.  The skillbar is setup where you have limited skills, with some  based on weapon, some based on class, and an ultimate/elite skill.  PvP has both esport-themed instanced matches and large-scale 3-faction siege warfare. These all seem like they were copied from the GW2 feature list, or else from the other games that GW2 took them from (i.e. DAOC for the siege warfare).  It sounds like they're trying to shift up their quest system to get some of the benefits of GW2's event system too- such as being able to do partial quests and get quest rewards for content you stumble across that doesn't have quests leading you to do it.

The major complaint is that instead of building an MMO on the strengths of the Elder Scrolls games, it seems like they're abandoning all the things that make the Elder Scrolls games unique and what made people excited about the possibility of an MMO with those mechanics. Instead of developing skills by using them (i.e. you get better at using swords by using swords, and any character can do anything), which has been a staple in all TES games, they're using a class-based system.  They're ditching the traditional TES combat in favor of wow-style combat.  Essentially, their abandoning the mechanics that differentiated Elder Scroll games from most other RPG games.  The comparisons with WoW and GW2 are coming from it being similar to WoW, but with a number of features that are selling points for GW2 that WoW doesn't have.

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by sidhaethe

In GW2 there may be an event that asks you to kill mobs and put out fires. You can kill any number of mobs, put out any number of fires, or opt to only kill mobs, or only to put out fires. You will still be rewarded for your participation to the extent that you participated. You can wander off, distracted, after only having participated halfway to the conclusion of the event, and you will still be rewarded with a bronze medal (and according amount of gold, exp, and karma currency) for the work that you did. There is no breadcrumb trail, merely suggestions for areas that have "activity" going on. You can do these in any order (one event doesn't unlock others). There are recommended level ranges, but these can vary and scale based on the participants.

Further, you are rewarded commensurate with your level, even if you are in a lower-level area, due to level scaling.

This is what is meant by freedom.

That helps a ton, thanks! So the GW2 is more based around exploring the world as opposed to WoW where the objective is to get max level and raid/pvp from then on.

Think of it more like this: 

GW2's world continues on whether there are players there to see it or not.   Most events trigger on their own, so town and fortresses will be attacked, overrun and lost, even if there isn't a single player in the zone at the time to see it.  You might show up at a village one day to buy some rare materials or consumables, then come back next day, only to find the merchant gone or dead, his shop burned and his village in ashes because a centaur horde descended on it and wiped everyone out and no one (no PCs) stopped it. 

If you want that vendor back, you'll have to clear the town out of the centaur invaders yourself through an event that anyone who wishes it, can participate in.  When you've driven the horde out of the village, you can start rezing the townsfolk, who will in turn, start rezing each other.  The next event in the chain might be to put out the fires in the town, gather wood from a nearby forest for rebuilding and actually doing the rebuilding yourself.

There might then be a few other events that can now start because the town is up and running again, which you would never have seen while it was in it's destroyed state.  Once you've rebuilt it, other things can now take place, such as buying from the merchant you came there to see in the first place.

Eventually though, at some point, the centaurs will regroup and will raid the town again.  That would constitute the start of the chain.  If someone is there to stop it this time, the village will not progress to its destroyed state and you will never see the event to retake it and rebuild it, however, all the events that can only happen while the village is functional, will continue to be viable. 

An example of what those could be might be an ox cart that gets sent from the village to a neighbouring town to trade.  That event would revolve around escorting the cart safely through bandits, wildlife or those ever-present centaur raiders.  And to see how events overlap and and chain off each other, that cart might be supplying metal ore that is mined locally around the first village.  That ore, if it arrives safely at it's destination, will be used to forge weapons that the locals will now have access to, so they can better defend themselves.  It also may make certain goods, available only at that location, purchasable by PCs from the local merchants. 

Later, that ox cart may be sent back to the first town laden with supplies, which may include seeds that the first village can use to grow crops, that can then be used by the local baker to make a unique consumable that PCs can also buy.

However, it's important to know that either of those trips with the ox cart are going to happen, whether PCs are there to protect it or not.  The way they would be presented is that a trader would lead the cart down to road at the front of the village and wait a few minutes before setting out.  If you're in the area, you'll see a notification of the event in progress and approximately where it is happening.  If you wander by the cart, the trader might wave at you and ask you verbally, if you would help guard the cart.  Whether you do or not won't stop him from leaving though.  The world goes on with or without your participation.  However, without your intervention, he likely won't make it to his destination and you'll never see the consumables for sale that are dependent on that event's success.  Your choice.

And all of that is dependent on the first town staying protected from the ongoing centaur raids.  If the town is allowed to burn, the whole area suffers perpetually until players take an active hand and change it.  And that's just one small event chain among hundreds in the world, spread all over.  It affects one small region of a very big map, in a very large world.  Some events can have a dozen or more links in them and they can change the face of entire zones, from one end to the other.

So when people say that DEs are just glorified quests, they have NO understanding of how they really work.  The individual goals may seem familiar (repel the raiders, gather wood, protect the caravan), but the interdependency of events has a widespread and real impact on the world and on the player's game experience.

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by romanator0

WoW: Enter quest hub -> ! -> do stuff -> ? -> get reward -> repeat step 1.

GW2: Run around and do things with the people that are there.

this is pretty much it.

WoW dumbed down its own mechanics so hard that peeps dont even need to talk to anybody anymore when they do things,close to single player experience.

now GW2 takes this to the max,theres no need for wowtools even anymore,everything is so protected and automated that single player experience is reached.

what happens in this product when server is empty?does it fill player spots with NPCs? so peeps can do massively multiplayer online role playing ?

 

The game makes you want to work with other players, there is no kill stealing or anything like that in GW2 unlike wow. This allows you to HELP other players around you kill things and the dynamic events scale to the number of people preticpating making the event still calanging. There is no need for groups because of how this system works you still work together to complte a task.