Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Elder Scrolls Online | Age of Wushu

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,797,697 Users Online:0
Games:723  Posts:6,195,698
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » General: MMO Darwinism

2 Pages 1 2 » Search
39 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13035

 
OP  5/03/12 5:59:37 PM#1

A new credo has erupted in the MMO-space these days: Adapt or die. In today's Devil's Advocate, we take a look at that premise. See what you think and then leave your thoughts in the comments.

The basic premise of MMO Darwinism is based around the understanding of finite resources. Of all the people in the world, there is only a subset of that that plays games, and a smaller subset of that group plays online games. Thus, unless more people play online games, there is only a specific amount of money going into online games to pay salaries, development costs, upkeep, and other things.

Read more of Victor Barreiro Jr.'s The Devil's Advocate: MMO Darwinism.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  User Deleted
5/04/12 10:20:54 AM#2

One thing a lot of these failing MMOs need to do is simply lower the price till the demand increases. Get rif of the $59 client purchase, and lower sub price to $10 or $5, and offer a free trial. Im not sure F2P brings in enough money to stay afloat, and many people would pay $5 for a month of play time, but not $15 as that is the price for a AAA MMO.

  Corthala

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/07
Posts: 267

5/04/12 10:33:58 AM#3

MMO sub price remains the same but the number of p2p has increase alot over the years I wonder when will they realise that players have alot of offers for same price and allways end up with the "next big thing"


"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"

One of those great lines from The Secret World

  User Deleted
5/04/12 10:45:25 AM#4

Here's a unique idea. Make games that people actually want to play, and more importantly pay to play. Quit trying to know better than the gamers that play the games, and instead look at what they like, and *shock* give it to them . I know that's a hard concept for all you "mmo gaming experts" out there telling the development houses how they should "innovate" and "distinguish themselves from WoW", but .......


Also quit releasing games before they have enough finished.


  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6597

5/04/12 10:52:40 AM#5

Well I agree with the first poster.  Prices have to change, players are not going to stick with your game long if you don't change them, especially in the fantasy realm.  I don't think a lot of f2p games make much money, there are just too many of them.

Unless you are in a niche without much competition like Eve, these games better start finding a way to differentiate themselves from the pack or face declining population.

  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1451

5/04/12 11:15:21 AM#6

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well I agree with the first poster.  Prices have to change, players are not going to stick with your game long if you don't change them, especially in the fantasy realm.  I don't think a lot of f2p games make much money, there are just too many of them.


Unless you are in a niche without much competition like Eve, these games better start finding a way to differentiate themselves from the pack or face declining population.



 


 Only speaking of big titles (LotRO, DDO, etc) I've heard they get even more subs when it's optional than when it's mandatory.  I do agree that the market is too flooded with cheap and just plain bad F2P games.  It also has a whole host of great one's though.


Side note, the shooter market has really exploded with F2P in a good way lately.  Blacklight, SMNC, Tribes, etc.   All pretty fun games not requiring you to shell out a ton of cash and not P2W (in my exp. anyway).


Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  User Deleted
5/04/12 11:22:59 AM#7
Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well I agree with the first poster.  Prices have to change, players are not going to stick with your game long if you don't change them, especially in the fantasy realm.  I don't think a lot of f2p games make much money, there are just too many of them.

Unless you are in a niche without much competition like Eve, these games better start finding a way to differentiate themselves from the pack or face declining population.

Yeah, and theres a lot of games I would pay to try if I didnt have to spend $40. Like xyson. Companies simply need to start pricing their MMOs competitively. $15 may be too cheap for some MMOs. $15 is definetly too much for other MMOs. Maybe more of them need to go to a GW model and have a pay once model.

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

5/04/12 11:23:05 AM#8

Originally posted by Kitane

Here's a unique idea. Make games that people actually want to play, and more importantly pay to play. Quit trying to know better than the gamers that play the games, and instead look at what they like, and *shock* give it to them . I know that's a hard concept for all you "mmo gaming experts" out there telling the development houses how they should "innovate" and "distinguish themselves from WoW", but .......




Also quit releasing games before they have enough finished.





 


Maybe, just maybe, all these "mmo gaming experts" are gamers.  And maybe they are right in telling companies to innovate.  Look at GW2, hype is off the scale because they made a game that people wanted, they innovated to the extreme instead of cloning WoW, and they took their time in development.  Now look at SWTOR, the devs decided that they would clone WoW and made a garbage game with no innovation.  And it is failing so hard that EA had to fire 1000 people. 


Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

5/04/12 11:28:21 AM#9

Perhaps we could call it Darwinism. But is it evolution or devolution? Often when conditions in a specific habitat or eco system gets worse the creatures living in it degenerate and turn into lesser less advanced life forms. The more advanced animals cant survive because the food and other necessities they needed are no longer available.

I believe this is what is really going on. And its sad...

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

5/04/12 11:52:30 AM#10

Victor,




I'm all for "Darwinisim" in terms of the Free Market....it's what our system is based on...and companies that can't deliver a good product/service at a competitive price and make a proffit doing so, neccessarly need to make way for ones that can.




The one thing I would be a bit carefull about is using "Darwinism" to describe some of the TRENDS in MMO's as you did. That's not really accurate... at least in the way most people commonly understand the Term (which is not neccesarly representative of the scientific understanding). Most people commonly consider  "Darwinism" to represent Progression from less efficient/suitable mechanisms to more suitable ones. Alot of the "Trends" you tend to lump into that label, I would argue, actualy aren't that at all...they are more descriptive of currently popular TASTES. Tastes in popular entertainment, IMHO, are a little bit more like FASHION then technology....there is no clear sense of "Progress" in that one is inarguaebly superior to another...that's a little bit like saying "blue" is inarguably superior to "yellow" or "strawberry" to "vanilla".... in this context, things shift into and out of vogue....one set of tastes that's all the rage today (i.e. "casual", "F2P", etc) may become completely unpopular tomorrow....while some other taste/preference that was considered to have fallen by the wayside 20 years ago,  suddenly makes a come-back and becomes all the rage again tomorrow . Popular tastes in entertainment....whether you are talking about games, movies, books, muisic, art, etc... are fickle and ever-shifting things...that tend to shift back and forth. That's really not so much what "Evolution" is about in the common (non-scientific) understanding.




There MAY be some things involving MMO's that ARE really "Evolutionary" in nature....but those are really more driven by the purely technical side of things..i.e. more sophisticated A.I., reduced latency, better graphics, etc.... which you aren't really addressing, what you seem to be mostly addressing would fit more aptly into what I would consider Fashion or Taste.





 

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2052

5/04/12 12:31:06 PM#11

The mmo genre has not gotten any better since the early days, it's not evolving.  MMOs are only failing or going p2p because there's a lot more of them now, competing with each other.


MMO devs seem to be either incompetent or clueless.  Just look at what happened with SWTOR and details gleaned about ESO.  Basically games that NO ONE wanted to be made out of those franchises.  Seriously clueless.


  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1640

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

5/04/12 12:34:14 PM#12

Evolution is happening, but with no natural predators humanity is not bound to "Survival of the fittest" anymore.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

5/04/12 12:41:49 PM#13

I thought this was the Devil's Advocate section? Everything there sounded perfectly logical and correct, to me.


Also the whole M2 debacle, I found that hilarious. It's still a shame, but how the hell does that happen? How do you not have constant back-ups of an online world where information is constantly changing and evolving? That just boggles the mind. 


"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  User Deleted
5/04/12 12:44:50 PM#14

                       "An American monkey,after getting drunk on brandy, would never


              never touch it again. And this makes it wiser than most men."


                                                                             -Charles Darwin


  FrostWyrm

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1028

5/04/12 12:46:25 PM#15
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I'm all for "Darwinisim" in terms of the Free Market....it's what our system is based on...and companies that can't deliver a good product/service at a competitive price and make a proffit doing so, neccessarly need to make way for ones that can.

Nature has a way of balancing itself, however nothing manmade is natural, and hence does not "evolve" as it should. Ideally, good games would succeed while bad and overpriced games would fail. Unfortunately things dont work this way in a world where marketing muscle becomes more prevalent than the product itself.

The industry does not evolve or devolve. It is controled. Controled by the publishers with the most money. They determine what the developers make, and what consumers "want".

  User Deleted
5/04/12 12:52:35 PM#16

Originally posted by BigHatLogan




Originally posted by Kitane




Here's a unique idea. Make games that people actually want to play, and more importantly pay to play. Quit trying to know better than the gamers that play the games, and instead look at what they like, and *shock* give it to them . I know that's a hard concept for all you "mmo gaming experts" out there telling the development houses how they should "innovate" and "distinguish themselves from WoW", but .......








Also quit releasing games before they have enough finished.











 




Maybe, just maybe, all these "mmo gaming experts" are gamers.  And maybe they are right in telling companies to innovate.  Look at GW2, hype is off the scale because they made a game that people wanted, they innovated to the extreme instead of cloning WoW, and they took their time in development.  Now look at SWTOR, the devs decided that they would clone WoW and made a garbage game with no innovation.  And it is failing so hard that EA had to fire 1000 people. 





 




The problem with SWTOR isn't that they "cloned" WoW. It's that they didn't "clone" WoW enough. They partially cloned WoW. They offered the bare skeleton, and nothing more.


Evolution doesn't happen with radical changes happening overnight. Evolution happens slowly. What SWTOR needed to do was take what WoW did, and then add successful innovations to that already successful model.


THAT is evolution.


Instead, Bioware took what WoW did, but removed many of the things that WoW has done to keep it at the top of the food chain all this time.


That is in fact de-evolution, and de-evolution, or lack of evolution, is what kills off species more than anything else.


  troublmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/11
Posts: 340

5/04/12 12:55:33 PM#17

I absolutely hate it when people horribly mis-use the term "Darwinism."  Darwinism only refers to the selection process of animals and species.  The selection process of animals and species is too often compared to market economics.  The laws that guide these are different from those that guide natural selection.




Natural selection tells us that when there is too much of something that disease and starvation can kill off the species.  As well if there are TOO FEW of a species they can die off to predators.


This isn't how it works in economics.  In economics it is entirely based off of supply (how much of that quantity is there) and demand (how much people want it).  So having too many or too few of a genre only effects an "evolution" depending on the demand of it.


In first person shooters for example there is currently no need to "evolve" their concepts because the tried and tested Counter Strike and Modern Warfare 3 models are working fine.


The gaming world is not Darwinistic by any means.  The gaming world is paradigmatic.  Thomas Kuhn came up with paradigm theory because every single asshole stranger philosopher out there was trying to akin every single phenomon out there to evolution.




You saw social evolution which stated black people are inferior to white people, you saw economic evolution that saw the rise of the central bank ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!), and you saw ideological evolution stating that how we think is based on a natural process of slowly changing how we think.




Thomas Kuhn came up with this brilliant idea that worked so much better than evolution.  His idea was so great that many people feel evolution might work like this (the introduction to X-Men was from Thomas Kuhn, not Darwin).




The idea is simple.  We exist in a current paradigm in which we have to work within a certain framework.  This means that in the existing paradigm you can only operate within the premises and set practices of the paradigm.  In science for example Dark Age scientists had to work within the premises set by Aristtotle because that was the paradigm.  However every now and then there is a paradigm shift.




A paradigm shift is a mold breaker.  It is when the old way of doing things is fully discovered and so utterly broken that a new paradigm is required to replace it.  After the new paradigm comes people look to discover the whole paradigm until it is broken again and a new one comes.




You can see this paradigm shift happen between something like Ultima Online which was the standard top down fighter to Everquest a third person perspective MMO.  You can see the shift again between Everquest and World of Warcraft that is a shift from an MMO being a game to an MMO being a social activity.




Please stop mis-using Darwinism.  Darwinism is not a tool to explain everything.  Darwinism is only a tool to explain evolution of species.





 

Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

5/04/12 1:20:12 PM#18

^Yeah some more economic terms would be more accurate eg maturing market etc. Red in tooth and claw is also a little misleading (not in the article hasten to add) as it's mainly intra-species competition which is the primary driver with ecosystem relationships coming behind that for eg. ;) such as rabbits competing most fiercely with rabbits then foxes are driving behind that.


Problem is risk -> high development costs -> expectation that players will settle down and have a home in any given mmorpg, when players are fickle animals at best.


It's a tough racket.


Some sort of mmorpg.The.Network for types of players to join/affiliate to ie to subdivide the genre and organize players according to groups where they'll pool their vested interests together for the type of mmorpg they are gunning for could be an interesting way for the market to change botton-up? Problem of players dropping off the internet suddenly never goes away but it might be a starter. Some sort of mmorpg.linkedin? "Manage your mmorpg.identity".


  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18818

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/04/12 1:31:32 PM#19
Originally posted by troublmaker

I absolutely hate it when people horribly mis-use the term "Darwinism."  Darwinism only refers to the selection process of animals and species.  The selection process of animals and species is too often compared to market economics.  The laws that guide these are different from those that guide natural selection.




Natural selection tells us that when there is too much of something that disease and starvation can kill off the species.  As well if there are TOO FEW of a species they can die off to predators.


This isn't how it works in economics.  In economics it is entirely based off of supply (how much of that quantity is there) and demand (how much people want it).  So having too many or too few of a genre only effects an "evolution" depending on the demand of it.


In first person shooters for example there is currently no need to "evolve" their concepts because the tried and tested Counter Strike and Modern Warfare 3 models are working fine.


The gaming world is not Darwinistic by any means.  The gaming world is paradigmatic.  Thomas Kuhn came up with paradigm theory because every single asshole stranger philosopher out there was trying to akin every single phenomon out there to evolution.




You saw social evolution which stated black people are inferior to white people, you saw economic evolution that saw the rise of the central bank ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE!), and you saw ideological evolution stating that how we think is based on a natural process of slowly changing how we think.




Thomas Kuhn came up with this brilliant idea that worked so much better than evolution.  His idea was so great that many people feel evolution might work like this (the introduction to X-Men was from Thomas Kuhn, not Darwin).




The idea is simple.  We exist in a current paradigm in which we have to work within a certain framework.  This means that in the existing paradigm you can only operate within the premises and set practices of the paradigm.  In science for example Dark Age scientists had to work within the premises set by Aristtotle because that was the paradigm.  However every now and then there is a paradigm shift.




A paradigm shift is a mold breaker.  It is when the old way of doing things is fully discovered and so utterly broken that a new paradigm is required to replace it.  After the new paradigm comes people look to discover the whole paradigm until it is broken again and a new one comes.




You can see this paradigm shift happen between something like Ultima Online which was the standard top down fighter to Everquest a third person perspective MMO.  You can see the shift again between Everquest and World of Warcraft that is a shift from an MMO being a game to an MMO being a social activity.




Please stop mis-using Darwinism.  Darwinism is not a tool to explain everything.  Darwinism is only a tool to explain evolution of species.





 

You wrote a very good post, and make some excellent points, however your use of the term refers strictly to the biological use of the term.

It has been bastardized if you will for quite some time and a quick internet search returned things such as Economic, Finanical Social, Universal, and Quantum Darwinism just to name a few.

You may not like what people have done to the original term, but like many words, there can be multiple meanings and this one is used rather broadly, even if it isn't quite accurate in how it's done.

The OP raised some good points, MMO's go through an evolutionary process where they either adapt (see EVE, WOW) and thrive or fail to adapt and wither away and die (see well, literally dozens of titles)

Just as in real evolution, there are far more failures and dead ends compared to the few yet very notable sucesses.

So the analogic comparison is not surprising, but again, perhaps not to your agreement or liking.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Dracill

Novice Member

Joined: 2/29/08
Posts: 161

5/04/12 1:40:11 PM#20
Although I think you are right. I still hope you are wrong.

As a niche gamer, I know I don't like the same thing that most players. If only the stronger MMO survive I will run out of gaming options really fast.
2 Pages 1 2 » Search