Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Almost every single one of you has missed the point. Keep you defense up and watch what happens over time.

 

I don't have a problem with the cash shop, it was implemented well in GW1. I DO have a problem that they have changed things to character only (when they used to be account wide or they have already stated they were account wide). Except for the bank space, which at starting 30 slots for 5 characters is paltry.

 

I've heard every one of these defenses before... you don't have to buy the stuff (until they make things such a pain in the butt without buying something from the store), you can use in game gold (until you can't earn enough to buy the aforementioned), your just whining, etc.

 

So, no, this isn't about gum and candy, it is about history with these cash shops and how they ultimately end up wrecking a damn good game as the quest for stuff in the store to make everyone buy it trashes the game development in favor of building grinds and ruining enjoyment in the game that can be avoided by adding stuff to the store.

 

Suppose your tin-foil hat predictions are true AND people end up spending $15.00 a month in the shop.  It's a push compared to a $15.00 monthly sub which I am very willing to pay.  Even a bit higher than that would be ok.  Even they know they can't push it too far as people are watching their money in this economy.

And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.

 

You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.

 

I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very  obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.

 

BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.

 

DLC on day one of a game release anyone?

I'm not defending EA here but they were voted worst company because the voters were ignorant, not because they are actually the worst company.

How many people have they killed while paying off politicians and the EPA to ensure that their operations can continue without interference ?

Sorry for the derail, but even mentioning EA's new "title," weakens rather than strengthens your position.

sorry but from this is all from a conumer standpoint not a how evil is a company standpoint

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by Raekon

 

Just a small info because you asked:

Blizzard lost 800000 subscriptions with the launch of swtor and dropped even more since then.

They already had lost a lot prior to that which moved them to turn to f2p till a certain level.

 

No they didn't.   THey lost 800K subscriptions for the quarter ended September 30th, 2011.  Whch was reported November 8th, 2011.   More an a MONTH before SWTOR launched.

 

Blizzard’s flagship game World of Warcraft loses 800K subscribers in Q3

Subscribers for Blizzard Entertainment’s World of Warcraft online game have fallen to 10.3 million in the third quarter, the company said today. That’s a dramatic drop from the 11.1 million it had in the second quarter.

 

http://venturebeat.com/2011/11/08/blizzards-flagship-game-world-of-warcraft-loses-800k-subscribers/

 

 The quarter SWTOR launched, they lost just 100K.   And most of those were pre-SWTOR launch.

 

Activision Blizzard released its fourth quarter earnings report today, and while it was another record breaking quarter for the gaming company, it also revealed the latest World of Warcraft subscription numbers. As of 12/31/11, World of Warcraft has 10.2 million subscribers, down 100k since their last report on Nov 8th.

http://lorehound.com/news/world-of-warcraft-loses-100k-subscribers/

 

 

It's far more honest to say that SWTOR had no significant impact on WoW than anything as ludicrous as SWTOR caused WoW to lose 800K subs.   Facts. Those darn things always get in the way of a wishful thinking narrative...

One thing to keep in mind here is that I know several people who canceled their renewing subs in anticipation of SWTOR coming out.  I don't think this accounts for the 1 mill that left, but I think a sizable portion did move from WoW to SWTOR.

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Almost every single one of you has missed the point. Keep you defense up and watch what happens over time.

 

I don't have a problem with the cash shop, it was implemented well in GW1. I DO have a problem that they have changed things to character only (when they used to be account wide or they have already stated they were account wide). Except for the bank space, which at starting 30 slots for 5 characters is paltry.

 

I've heard every one of these defenses before... you don't have to buy the stuff (until they make things such a pain in the butt without buying something from the store), you can use in game gold (until you can't earn enough to buy the aforementioned), your just whining, etc.

 

So, no, this isn't about gum and candy, it is about history with these cash shops and how they ultimately end up wrecking a damn good game as the quest for stuff in the store to make everyone buy it trashes the game development in favor of building grinds and ruining enjoyment in the game that can be avoided by adding stuff to the store.

 

Suppose your tin-foil hat predictions are true AND people end up spending $15.00 a month in the shop.  It's a push compared to a $15.00 monthly sub which I am very willing to pay.  Even a bit higher than that would be ok.  Even they know they can't push it too far as people are watching their money in this economy.

And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.

 

You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.

 

I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very  obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.

 

BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.

 

DLC on day one of a game release anyone?

I'm not defending EA here but they were voted worst company because the voters were ignorant, not because they are actually the worst company.

How many people have they killed while paying off politicians and the EPA to ensure that their operations can continue without interference ?

Sorry for the derail, but even mentioning EA's new "title," weakens rather than strengthens your position.

sorry but from this is all from a conumer standpoint not a how evil is a company standpoint

Afraid that such a distinction is a bit silly (in my opinion of course). EA is the worst company in the U.S. if we define, "worst," specificalyl to exclude those involved in much worse business practices from consideration for the title.

And even if we do accept that caveat, only an uninformed (or narrow minded) voter base would allow EA (a company that I dislike myself by the way) to be chosen.

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Almost every single one of you has missed the point. Keep you defense up and watch what happens over time.

 

I don't have a problem with the cash shop, it was implemented well in GW1. I DO have a problem that they have changed things to character only (when they used to be account wide or they have already stated they were account wide). Except for the bank space, which at starting 30 slots for 5 characters is paltry.

 

I've heard every one of these defenses before... you don't have to buy the stuff (until they make things such a pain in the butt without buying something from the store), you can use in game gold (until you can't earn enough to buy the aforementioned), your just whining, etc.

 

So, no, this isn't about gum and candy, it is about history with these cash shops and how they ultimately end up wrecking a damn good game as the quest for stuff in the store to make everyone buy it trashes the game development in favor of building grinds and ruining enjoyment in the game that can be avoided by adding stuff to the store.

 

Suppose your tin-foil hat predictions are true AND people end up spending $15.00 a month in the shop.  It's a push compared to a $15.00 monthly sub which I am very willing to pay.  Even a bit higher than that would be ok.  Even they know they can't push it too far as people are watching their money in this economy.

And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.

 

You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.

 

I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very  obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.

 

BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.

 

DLC on day one of a game release anyone?

I'm not defending EA here but they were voted worst company because the voters were ignorant, not because they are actually the worst company.

How many people have they killed while paying off politicians and the EPA to ensure that their operations can continue without interference ?

Sorry for the derail, but even mentioning EA's new "title," weakens rather than strengthens your position.

sorry but from this is all from a conumer standpoint not a how evil is a company standpoint

Afraid that such a distinction is a bit silly (in my opinion of course). EA is the worst company in the U.S. if we define, "worst," specificalyl to exclude those involved in much worse business practices from consideration for the title.

And even if we do accept that caveat, only an uninformed (or narrow minded) voter base would allow EA (a company that I dislike myself by the way) to be chosen.

as a consumer  EA is the worst company of any of them.  this was done by the consumerist, the distinction is there and thats what it was for.

thats why  durring it all there was nothing about  EA swallowing up other companies to shut them down, it was how it affected the consumers. now you have to think, EA affected every gamer  out there, whereas  others are more likely only affecting much less people maybe with bigger effects. and generally those isies were sorted out.

now if you wanted to make it worse in america based on everything... i think ea still is up there overworking people, buyign up smaller places to shut them down or to remove competetors.  and  excelerating releases which should be relased in time.

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Almost every single one of you has missed the point. Keep you defense up and watch what happens over time.

 

I don't have a problem with the cash shop, it was implemented well in GW1. I DO have a problem that they have changed things to character only (when they used to be account wide or they have already stated they were account wide). Except for the bank space, which at starting 30 slots for 5 characters is paltry.

 

I've heard every one of these defenses before... you don't have to buy the stuff (until they make things such a pain in the butt without buying something from the store), you can use in game gold (until you can't earn enough to buy the aforementioned), your just whining, etc.

 

So, no, this isn't about gum and candy, it is about history with these cash shops and how they ultimately end up wrecking a damn good game as the quest for stuff in the store to make everyone buy it trashes the game development in favor of building grinds and ruining enjoyment in the game that can be avoided by adding stuff to the store.

 

Suppose your tin-foil hat predictions are true AND people end up spending $15.00 a month in the shop.  It's a push compared to a $15.00 monthly sub which I am very willing to pay.  Even a bit higher than that would be ok.  Even they know they can't push it too far as people are watching their money in this economy.

And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.

 

You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.

 

I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very  obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.

 

BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.

 

DLC on day one of a game release anyone?

I'm not defending EA here but they were voted worst company because the voters were ignorant, not because they are actually the worst company.

How many people have they killed while paying off politicians and the EPA to ensure that their operations can continue without interference ?

Sorry for the derail, but even mentioning EA's new "title," weakens rather than strengthens your position.

sorry but from this is all from a conumer standpoint not a how evil is a company standpoint

Afraid that such a distinction is a bit silly (in my opinion of course). EA is the worst company in the U.S. if we define, "worst," specificalyl to exclude those involved in much worse business practices from consideration for the title.

And even if we do accept that caveat, only an uninformed (or narrow minded) voter base would allow EA (a company that I dislike myself by the way) to be chosen.

as a consumer  EA is the worst company of any of them.  this was done by the consumerist, the distinction is there and thats what it was for.

thats why  durring it all there was nothing about  EA swallowing up other companies to shut them down, it was how it affected the consumers. now you have to think, EA affected every gamer  out there, whereas  others are more likely only affecting much less people maybe with bigger effects. and generally those isies were sorted out.

 

now if you wanted to make it worse in america based on everything... i think ea still is up there overworking people, buyign up smaller places to shut them down or to remove competetors.  and  excelerating releases which should be relased in time.

If you measure worst company by merely its impact on consumers...how is a company whose sole impact is on games that one may or may not choose to play even in the running ?

As far as, "worst in America based on everyting," a company accellerating product releases or engaged in (excessively ?) aggressive competition is not even in the same league as companies that are killing people for a profit. No offense but do you really place rushing a game's release in the same league as poisoning a child's drinking water ?

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by cloud8521

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Almost every single one of you has missed the point. Keep you defense up and watch what happens over time.

 

I don't have a problem with the cash shop, it was implemented well in GW1. I DO have a problem that they have changed things to character only (when they used to be account wide or they have already stated they were account wide). Except for the bank space, which at starting 30 slots for 5 characters is paltry.

 

I've heard every one of these defenses before... you don't have to buy the stuff (until they make things such a pain in the butt without buying something from the store), you can use in game gold (until you can't earn enough to buy the aforementioned), your just whining, etc.

 

So, no, this isn't about gum and candy, it is about history with these cash shops and how they ultimately end up wrecking a damn good game as the quest for stuff in the store to make everyone buy it trashes the game development in favor of building grinds and ruining enjoyment in the game that can be avoided by adding stuff to the store.

 

Suppose your tin-foil hat predictions are true AND people end up spending $15.00 a month in the shop.  It's a push compared to a $15.00 monthly sub which I am very willing to pay.  Even a bit higher than that would be ok.  Even they know they can't push it too far as people are watching their money in this economy.

And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.

 

You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.

 

I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very  obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.

 

BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.

 

DLC on day one of a game release anyone?

I'm not defending EA here but they were voted worst company because the voters were ignorant, not because they are actually the worst company.

How many people have they killed while paying off politicians and the EPA to ensure that their operations can continue without interference ?

Sorry for the derail, but even mentioning EA's new "title," weakens rather than strengthens your position.

sorry but from this is all from a conumer standpoint not a how evil is a company standpoint

Afraid that such a distinction is a bit silly (in my opinion of course). EA is the worst company in the U.S. if we define, "worst," specificalyl to exclude those involved in much worse business practices from consideration for the title.

And even if we do accept that caveat, only an uninformed (or narrow minded) voter base would allow EA (a company that I dislike myself by the way) to be chosen.

as a consumer  EA is the worst company of any of them.  this was done by the consumerist, the distinction is there and thats what it was for.

thats why  durring it all there was nothing about  EA swallowing up other companies to shut them down, it was how it affected the consumers. now you have to think, EA affected every gamer  out there, whereas  others are more likely only affecting much less people maybe with bigger effects. and generally those isies were sorted out.

 

now if you wanted to make it worse in america based on everything... i think ea still is up there overworking people, buyign up smaller places to shut them down or to remove competetors.  and  excelerating releases which should be relased in time.

If you measure worst company by merely its impact on consumers...how is a company whose sole impact is on games that one may or may not choose to play even in the running ?

 

As far as, "worst in America based on everyting," a company accellerating product releases or engaged in (excessively ?) aggressive competition is not even in the same league as companies that are killing people for a profit. No offense but do you really place rushing a game's release in the same league as poisoning a child's drinking water ?

of couse not i did not say ea would win on the worset company in america based on everything.

but by a consumer standpoint i would say they win

I didn't mean to set off the thread discussing EA, I meant that if you looked at WHY they were voted that way it was about the relentless drive down in quality and "nickel-and-diming" of consumers for the same products.

Now, back on the thread.

I think the biggest issue with the store isn't the store itself, not at all. I saw very little by way of complaints with GW1. People want to support AreanaNet as they bring value to one's gaming experience. From the BWE weekend, however, what upset most (as covered in the GW Forums) was changing from account based purchases (ala GW1) and going to character based ones. This might not seem like a big deal except ArenaNet already had published that purchases would be account wide, then with first BWE they became character only. THAT is what set many people off and is what made many view what they were doing as a cash grab - and, to be honest, that is exactly what it is, otherwise stuff that was account wide in GW1 would be account wide in GW2. Previous to the BWE, sure they always mentioned it there would be a cash shop and most didn't have issue because of the way GW1 was and the statements about the new dye system and purchases being account wide. Suddenly, all of that changed.

On the official forums, most were vocal in this regard with the dye system (which was OFFICIALLY stated as being account wide, then made character only in beta) and costumes.

Consider in GW1, when you bought a costume it was available to all characters, including new ones you created or, even if you deleted and created a new character. In GW2, for the iteration in the first BWE, this is no longer the case. So now, if you buy the costume (which is the same price as GW1 only per character - which effectively now makes them 5 times the price as GW1), you only get it for one character. If, at a later date you choose to delete that character and create a new one in that slot, you lose the item and must buy it all over again.

In addtion, the desire to drive players to the store has crept into the design of the game itself. They KNOW dyes are popular in MMOs and were popular in GW1. So, they design a silly system were it takes 24 hours to grow one dye color, or you can accelerate it with magic plant food. There is no reason, whatsoever, for a silly design such as this except to try and play to a player's impatience if they enjoy the dye system. Moreover, there is no reason to have a dye pack in the store that gives three random dyes, where they may be duplicates, except to follow the path of collectable card games with people buying 2,000 of the same commons to get that one rare they are looking for.

Sure, we don't HAVE to use the store to get the dyes, but we ALL have to live with a very silly 'grow a color once every 24 hours' as a result. There is no other reason for this design except for the gemshop, and thereby it effects everyone whether they use the store or not. That is a major crux of the issue.

Again, it isn't about the cash shop at all - it was the wide spread change from account wide purchases to character only and the desire to have more people use the store more often creeping into the design of the game overall.

Sure, you can state if you don't want it don't buy it... but ArenaNet wants to sell items from the store, and people want to buy them to support ArenaNet but consumers WON'T buy it if they feel they are blatantly trying to take advantage of them which is EXACTLY what the iteration of the cash shop was in the first BWE (and what was mentioned quite a few times on their forums). Let's see what the second BWE brings to see if they heard the message.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

I didn't mean to set off the thread discussing EA, I meant that if you looked at WHY they were voted that way it was about the relentless drive down in quality and "nickel-and-diming" of consumers for the same products.

 

Now, back on the thread.

 

I think the biggest issue with the store isn't the store itself, not at all. I saw very little by way of complaints with GW1. People want to support AreanaNet as they bring value to one's gaming experience. From the BWE weekend, however, what upset most (as covered in the GW Forums) was changing from account based purchases (ala GW1) and going to character based ones. This might not seem like a big deal except ArenaNet already had published that purchases would be account wide, then with first BWE they became character only. THAT is what set many people off and is what made many view what they were doing as a cash grab - and, to be honest, that is exactly what it is, otherwise stuff that was account wide in GW1 would be account wide in GW2. Previous to the BWE, sure they always mentioned it there would be a cash shop and most didn't have issue because of the way GW1 was and the statements about the new dye system and purchases being account wide. Suddenly, all of that changed.

 

On the official forums, most were vocal in this regard with the dye system (which was OFFICIALLY stated as being account wide, then made character only in beta) and costumes.

 

Consider in GW1, when you bought a costume it was available to all characters, including new ones you created or, even if you deleted and created a new character. In GW2, for the iteration in the first BWE, this is no longer the case. So now, if you buy the costume (which is the same price as GW1 only per character - which effectively now makes them 5 times the price as GW1), you only get it for one character. If, at a later date you choose to delete that character and create a new one in that slot, you lose the item and must buy it all over again.

 

In addtion, the desire to drive players to the store has crept into the design of the game itself. They KNOW dyes are popular in MMOs and were popular in GW1. So, they design a silly system were it takes 24 hours to grow one dye color, or you can accelerate it with magic plant food. There is no reason, whatsoever, for a silly design such as this except to try and play to a player's impatience if they enjoy the dye system. Moreover, there is no reason to have a dye pack in the store that gives three random dyes, where they may be duplicates, except to follow the path of collectable card games with people buying 2,000 of the same commons to get that one rare they are looking for.

 

Sure, we don't HAVE to use the store to get the dyes, but we ALL have to live with a very silly 'grow a color once every 24 hours' as a result. There is no other reason for this design except for the gemshop, and thereby it effects everyone whether they use the store or not. That is a major crux of the issue.

 

Again, it isn't about the cash shop at all - it was the wide spread change from account wide purchases to character only and the desire to have more people use the store more often creeping into the design of the game overall.

 

Sure, you can state if you don't want it don't buy it... but ArenaNet wants to sell items from the store, and people want to buy them to support ArenaNet but consumers WON'T buy it if they feel they are blatantly trying to take advantage of them which is EXACTLY what the iteration of the cash shop was in the first BWE (and what was mentioned quite a few times on their forums). Let's see what the second BWE brings to see if they heard the message.

 

These arguments are well reasoned and well worth consideration. I do not completely agree with all of them, but I too will be watching future beta events (as well as live) for the evolution of this matter.

I believe that per character unlocks generally reduce replay value of a game as the desire to re-unlock something for a second, third, etc character, which one had previously unlocked for your first character, encourages one to focus on a primary main character. Replay value, longevity, are not enhanced by dis-incentivizing playing alts.

Dyes, like all the rest, are NOT mandatory things required to play. And seriously... 24 hours only? Is it that bad, are you in a hurry? If you're going to play this game for months, if not for years, 24 hours to grow a dye is insignificant.

Also, the whole store thing is a choice between time and money. There's nothing in the store you can't get with game gold, and some, like dyes, don't even require game gold, but just patience. And stuff like bags have already been discussed and proved not to be mandatory to play confortably either.

there are acocunt wide stuff,  i beleive the stuff in beta were bag/box slots.  and bank upgrades

durring bets i had so many dye seeds... i did not know hwow to use them so isold them off.... but i had so many (20+) i dont think dyes will be too big a problem

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Dyes, like all the rest, are NOT mandatory things required to play. And seriously... 24 hours only? Is it that bad, are you in a hurry? If you're going to play this game for months, if not for years, 24 hours to grow a dye is insignificant.

Also, the whole store thing is a choice between time and money. There's nothing in the store you can't get with game gold, and some, like dyes, don't even require game gold, but just patience. And stuff like bags have already been discussed and proved not to be mandatory to play confortably either.

Yes, you are correct, they are not mandatory, just like a character name, costumes or different armors isn't mandatory. Heck, everyone in the game should be with the exact same character model, in the exact same armor since we put it that way. But, being it is an RPG, character identity is a BIG part of MMORPGs, and thus why dyes and costumes are always popular regardless of MMO.

And yes 24 hours.... per character.... for 400 dyes... that is 400 days per character times 5 is 2,000 total days (or 5.47 years) to collect dye colors for your account. That is ludicrous from the start and only that way because of the gem shop.

Maybe you might not consider dyes important, but a huge portion of the MMO community does (thus why black dye was so expensive in GW1). Too many, the look of their character is just as important as the game play itself (why else design a dye system with 400 colors). So, if you are a player type that enjoys more of the RPG aspects of an MMORPG, then dyes are mandatory. If you like the MMO past, then stats are mandatory. It all depends on one's view.

Originally posted by cloud8521

there are acocunt wide stuff,  i beleive the stuff in beta were bag/box slots.  and bank upgrades

Bank upgrades will automatically be account wide, since the bank is account wide. Character slots are of course account wide... the only thing that's character specific is bag slots, but as it has been confirmed by many people here, they are definitely not required to confortably play the game. The only persons which had bag space problems where those who didn't understand that you can send crafting materials directly to your bank from anywhere.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

And yes 24 hours.... per character.... for 400 dyes... that is 400 days per character times 5 is 2,000 total days (or 5.47 years) to collect dye colors for your account. That is ludicrous from the start and only that way because of the gem shop.

Biased calculation is... biased. Dye growing is not limited to 1 per account per 24 hours. You can grow 5 at once.

Maybe you might not consider dyes important, but a huge portion of the MMO community does (thus why black dye was so expensive in GW1). Too many, the look of their character is just as important as the game play itself (why else design a dye system with 400 colors). So, if you are a player type that enjoys more of the RPG aspects of an MMORPG, then dyes are mandatory. If you like the MMO past, then stats are mandatory. It all depends on one's view.

I value character customization options like dyes as much as anyone else, I'm actually an old school player who plays these games since UO and before, when they weren't all about collecting purple gear from raid bosses, but more about community and RPG.

Dyes are important, having all 400 dyes is not. Actually, the basic choice of colors coming with all characters already allow a huge amount of customizations, armor/clothes having 2 or 3 different colors. Actually, not being able to have the 400 dyes on all chars in a couple of months means you have always something to look forward to.

And as I said, the dye kits from the gem shop aren't that expensive - you can also buy them with game gold.

I'm one of the biggest skeptics when it comes to cash shops, but I have a hard time to find anything wrong with this one, unless it drastically changes between now and release.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Wayshuba

And yes 24 hours.... per character.... for 400 dyes... that is 400 days per character times 5 is 2,000 total days (or 5.47 years) to collect dye colors for your account. That is ludicrous from the start and only that way because of the gem shop.

Biased calculation is... biased. Dye growing is not limited to 1 per account per 24 hours. You can grow 5 at once.

Maybe you might not consider dyes important, but a huge portion of the MMO community does (thus why black dye was so expensive in GW1). Too many, the look of their character is just as important as the game play itself (why else design a dye system with 400 colors). So, if you are a player type that enjoys more of the RPG aspects of an MMORPG, then dyes are mandatory. If you like the MMO past, then stats are mandatory. It all depends on one's view.

I value character customization options like dyes as much as anyone else, I'm actually an old school player who plays these games since UO and before, when they weren't all about collecting purple gear from raid bosses, but more about community and RPG.

Dyes are important, having all 400 dyes is not. Actually, the basic choice of colors coming with all characters already allow a huge amount of customizations, armor/clothes having 2 or 3 different colors. Actually, not being able to have the 400 dyes on all chars in a couple of months means you have always something to look forward to.

And as I said, the dye kits from the gem shop aren't that expensive - you can also buy them with game gold.

I'm one of the biggest skeptics when it comes to cash shops, but I have a hard time to find anything wrong with this one, unless it drastically changes between now and release.

Calculation isn't biased in the slightest. Yes, you can grow 5 per day, but that doesn't change the total number of days needed at all. Even at 5 per day, per character slot you still need 2,000 total days (400 per character), which is still 400 days per character (as I metioned) which is 1.1 years per character. Still an awful lot of time assuming you log in every single days for 13  months. There is no single collection grind this intense in all of MMO land.

And none of it changes the fact that this is all driven, design wise, by the cash shop. Otherwise, we would have the standard drop and use in every other MMO (including GW1).

The root of what I was saying earlier, whether you use the shop or not, whether they are expensive or not, whether they are madatory or not, none of it matters. What matters is this design concept is solely in the game in it's current iteration as a result of the gem shop. That is what I meant earlier about a store effecting the design of the game. No one has to use the store, but everyone has to live with the silly grow a color once a day design as a result.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Snip

Calculation isn't biased in the slightest. Yes, you can grow 5 per day, but that doesn't change the total number of days needed at all. Even at 5 per day, per character slot you still need 2,000 total days (400 per character), which is still 400 days per character (as I metioned) which is 1.1 years per character. Still an awful lot of time assuming you log in every single days for 13  months. There is no single collection grind this intense in all of MMO land.

 

And none of it changes the fact that this is all driven, design wise, by the cash shop. Otherwise, we would have the standard drop and use in every other MMO (including GW1).

 

The root of what I was saying earlier, whether you use the shop or not, whether they are expensive or not, whether they are madatory or not, none of it matters. What matters is this design concept is solely in the game in it's current iteration as a result of the gem shop. That is what I meant earlier about a store effecting the design of the game. No one has to use the store, but everyone has to live with the silly grow a color once a day design as a result.

 

And how many shades of green/yellow/blue does a person honestly need. Just because they are there does not mean you have to get them all. Unless you are an obsessive compulsive person, but than you have bigger problems to be honest.

No matter how you try to turn it, it doesn't require 2000 days to get the dyes on 5 characters. You keep on conveniently ignoring parts of what I've said, like the fact that you can also buy the dye kits from the shop with game gold without ever playing a cent of real money. That's no different from buying the kits from an in game NPC.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

The root of what I was saying earlier, whether you use the shop or not, whether they are expensive or not, whether they are madatory or not, none of it matters. What matters is this design concept is solely in the game in it's current iteration as a result of the gem shop. That is what I meant earlier about a store effecting the design of the game. No one has to use the store, but everyone has to live with the silly grow a color once a day design as a result.
 

If you want to see a store affecting the game (and badly), I suggest you try playing LOTRO. There, yes, the store affects you permanently, it's actually slammed in your face at every opportunity.

But in GW2? Definitely not. And as I demonstrated above, no, you do NOT have to live with one color per day. Not only you can grow several on alts, but you can buy the kits in the shop with game gold just as if you bought it from a NPC.

Try LOTRO if you haven't. You'll see what I'm talking about.

Who needs 400 different colors anyway? GW1 had a lot of colors aswell, but black has always been the most expensive. Once you unlock black in GW2 for one char, you won't ever have to buy a black dye again. I think it is far better than in most MMOs, where you need to buy dye potions for every piece (or cannot dye an armor set at all).

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

No matter how you try to turn it, it doesn't require 2000 days to get the dyes on 5 characters. You keep on conveniently ignoring parts of what I've said, like the fact that you can also buy the dye kits from the shop with game gold without ever playing a cent of real money. That's no different from buying the kits from an in game NPC.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

The root of what I was saying earlier, whether you use the shop or not, whether they are expensive or not, whether they are madatory or not, none of it matters. What matters is this design concept is solely in the game in it's current iteration as a result of the gem shop. That is what I meant earlier about a store effecting the design of the game. No one has to use the store, but everyone has to live with the silly grow a color once a day design as a result.
 

If you want to see a store affecting the game (and badly), I suggest you try playing LOTRO. There, yes, the store affects you permanently, it's actually slammed in your face at every opportunity.

But in GW2? Definitely not. And as I demonstrated above, no, you do NOT have to live with one color per day. Not only you can grow several on alts, but you can buy the kits in the shop with game gold just as if you bought it from a NPC.

Try LOTRO if you haven't. You'll see what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, that's why I am concerned here. I'd did play LOTRO, as a lifer, for more than four years and I saw how the drive to get everyone to use the cash shop destroyed that game.

Regardless of the number of dyes, think for a minute about the in game mechanic - growing a dye color a day or accelerating it with a grow flower and getting to use it on one character only. Why such a silly mechanic (when most games just drop the dang dye - including GW1)? Simple, to get many to use the store. Again, I worry mostly that, like LOTRO, as updates come they will be more about what we can get people to purchase from the store and then the design of the game itself will end up accomodating the drive there - ala LOTRO.

So, it really isn't about the number of dyes or the store - it is about the store causing silly mechanics (or later dreaded grinds just to sell accelerators) effecting the design of the game whether you use the store or not. Yes, unlike LOTRO where the Buy Now button is on just about every dialog box in the game, it isn't that bad, but already, from first BWE we have game design influenced by wanting players to use the store and that is what concerns me.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

No matter how you try to turn it, it doesn't require 2000 days to get the dyes on 5 characters. You keep on conveniently ignoring parts of what I've said, like the fact that you can also buy the dye kits from the shop with game gold without ever playing a cent of real money. That's no different from buying the kits from an in game NPC.

Originally posted by Wayshuba

The root of what I was saying earlier, whether you use the shop or not, whether they are expensive or not, whether they are madatory or not, none of it matters. What matters is this design concept is solely in the game in it's current iteration as a result of the gem shop. That is what I meant earlier about a store effecting the design of the game. No one has to use the store, but everyone has to live with the silly grow a color once a day design as a result.
 

If you want to see a store affecting the game (and badly), I suggest you try playing LOTRO. There, yes, the store affects you permanently, it's actually slammed in your face at every opportunity.

But in GW2? Definitely not. And as I demonstrated above, no, you do NOT have to live with one color per day. Not only you can grow several on alts, but you can buy the kits in the shop with game gold just as if you bought it from a NPC.

Try LOTRO if you haven't. You'll see what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, that's why I am concerned here. I'd did play LOTRO, as a lifer, for more than four years and I saw how the drive to get everyone to use the cash shop destroyed that game.

 

Regardless of the number of dyes, think for a minute about the in game mechanic - growing a dye color a day or accelerating it with a grow flower and getting to use it on one character only. Why such a silly mechanic (when most games just drop the dang dye - including GW1)? Simple, to get many to use the store. Again, I worry mostly that, like LOTRO, as updates come they will be more about what we can get people to purchase from the store and then the design of the game itself will end up accomodating the drive there - ala LOTRO.

 

So, it really isn't about the number of dyes or the store - it is about the store causing silly mechanics (or later dreaded grinds just to sell accelerators) effecting the design of the game whether you use the store or not. Yes, unlike LOTRO where the Buy Now button is on just about every dialog box in the game, it isn't that bad, but already, from first BWE we have game design influenced by wanting players to use the store and that is what concerns me.

Yes. Lotro is probably the most offensive Pay 2 Win fest on the market. And Turbine the master of fraud and lies... If there is one company that will never get any money from me it is Turbine.

Windows pop up all the time telling you to buy things in the CS to win. The grind feels terrible all the time and you get reminded to go to the CS to make it better. To buy the stupid Li enhance scroll instead of grinding for weeks to get it...and so on. And, yes, the whole game is designed to make you need/want to use the CS as often as possible.

People that have played Lotro and really hate the game and the company are of course worried. Perhaps they are looking forward to play Gw2 but fear that eventually the CS will turn in to the terrible mess that we can see in Lotro. Personally I hope and also really want to believe it will be better in Gw2. That the CS will never have the type of items they sell in Lotro or other terrible games.

I mean people are negative and fear the CS in Gw2 will be bad based on bad experiences and painful lessons learned in other games. Can you blame them?

A. I will only play one main character until max level before rolling my first alt. So, I'll never need the extra slots.

B. I could care less about extra bank space. If It's junk, I sell it.. I hardly ever store items

C. The extra bag slots would sound nice for when I'm out leveling, but I'll just tele back to town to sell more often, then tele back to my leveling area..

D. I knew GW2 would have a cash shop because there's no way a game this huge was going to be 100% free.. I wouldn't be surprised to see end game raid content costing thousands of gems to unlock...  or something like 20 USD a person..