So I'm playing TERA last evening (level 35, whoo hoo) and I see a guildmate bemoan how "slow" the leveling is going, now that he only has 14 to go until level 60.

I said, for heaven's sake, this is only day 3 of the release, and you're complaining about not being max level yet?

As a former Lineage 2 player, it made me laugh to think of the 1 to 1.5 year grind I faced to get to level 70 when it first came out.  i didn't make it by the way, stopped after 6 months of pretty solid gameplay at level 52. 

Even in a more reasonable title like DAOC it took me almost 5 months to get a character up to level 50, and some more time to get his realm ranks up to a respectable level (5)

Kids these days. 

Many folks just aren't interested in actually playing the game, they're rushing towards the end and in TERA's case we're not even sure there's  much of anything there right now.  Strange.

I know, none of this is news to you, but it just sort of got driven home once more to me last evening.

Well, in my own case, I'm enjoying my journey, and just completed a pretty cool story line quest last evening.  And people say TERA has no story....

Yeah its ridiculous how much the expectations are these days. How are these new games going to compete with all these free to play games along with World of Warcraft still taking the lead? Hopefully it doesn't simply have a rush of newcomers that quit a couple months later looking for the next thing while many others wait for it to go free to play like the common trend these days.

Why can't this game have some sort of risk vs reward though? If it did have something to fight for that was extremely difficult to earn and maintain than I would be a hell of a lot more motivated to stick it out until the end .. . . but it doesn't so its just going to fit into the huge category of games that I may enjoy parts of it but do not have time to play when other games have more challenge to offer.

I understand that most people play MMORPGs to group with others and work as a team but some of us have done plenty of that and just want to compete with other gamers because its not as much fun to win the computer . .. . especially when others will be winning the computer during the same quest hundreds of times after I do so where's the real sense of accomplishment?

stopped reading at lineage 2, that should never be used as an example for anything.

and maybe he's been playing 20 hours a day.  did Tera have early access or anything?

Originally posted by adam_nox

stopped reading at lineage 2, that should never be used as an example for anything.

 

and maybe he's been playing 20 hours a day.  did Tera have early access or anything?

I believe you missed the whole point of the OP.

Maybe you should start reading the posts your're replying to.

Originally posted by adam_nox

stopped reading at lineage 2, that should never be used as an example for anything.

 

and maybe he's been playing 20 hours a day.  did Tera have early access or anything?

Yes I know L2 is the extreme end of grind, but DAOC was a reasonable example had you kept reading a little further.

And yes, TERA did have a head start but no, I wasn't complaining about his level, or even how much he has played (I'm sure there's level 60s' already) but just the general attitude that he feels the leveling is too slow.

Believe me, it's not slow by any reasonable measure of the past, but perhaps compared to today's player expectations it's excessive?  I just don't see it, but then again, while I chase the carrot as much as the next guy I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of time enjoying the journey.

Also I wanted to note, this is not related to just TERA, I saw the same attitude with SWTOR, people just racing towards the finish and being disappointed at what they found at the end of the rainbow.

The funny thing is, after the GW2 beta weekend - that I didn't play - I read some GW2 forum. On the very same page of that forum was a thread from someone who claimed he got to level 40 during beta weekend and another thread from someone claiming that levelling was too slow.

It made me laugh.

It's because gamers now day's don't care about the leveling process..

All everyone care's about is endgame, because that is what we have been accustomed to recently with all the past  released MMO's... *cough WOW cough*

I also remember taking days to level when I played eq back in 2000.

We also gotta be realstic people just don't wanna have to grind for months on end to get levels anymore most people wanna jump on for a few hours a night and actually feel like they accomplished something....

Do I miss the days of grinding for levels ? Sometimes

Many people have lost their minds. They've replaced fun with completely mindless competition.

For instance, i was watching a guy streaming Tera recently and both he and his guildmates had been playing non-stop for around 2 or 3 days in an effort to get level 60 server firsts for their respective classes. I caught them towards the end of their run and by that time they were complaining of nausea and exhaustion while moaning about how torturous it was.... They voluntarily turned the game into a torturous experience rather than just playing the game for fun. It's pretty mind boggling.

Narcissism is so common these days that it has officially lost it's classification as a mental disorder. It is considered 'normal' now. Think about that....

EDIT: I forgot to mention that when they finally did reach level 60 there was barely a celebration. Mostly it was just more moaning and complaining before they went to pass out. What was the point?!

I guess people have been trained by traditional MMORPGs to go for the endgame content. That's why people rush to the endgame in illusion of having the best experience the game can offer as fast as possible. Developers these days need to advertise the journey to the end of their MMO as major content, so people don't think they miss something until they are max level.

This, or people want to pvp as early as possible and be on equal footing (gear-wise) without the hassel of getting stomped by someone with more magic find or luck. After all, it's a matter of communication and game design.

It makes you wonder where all this ends.  How short of an attention span does a game have to cater to?

Maybe in the future we'll start the game, kill 1 mob and hit max level.  He'll drop a full set of epic gear.  Next we fight the boss.  After you kill him, that's it.  Game over!  Next title.

Originally posted by dave6660

It makes you wonder where all this ends.  How short of an attention span does a game have to cater to?

Maybe in the future we'll start the game, kill 1 mob and hit max level.  He'll drop a full set of epic gear.  Next we fight the boss.  After you kill him, that's it.  Game over!  Next title.

Shhhhhhhhhh...they can hear you. Now the next big game will be named,"Instamax:Game Over!".

Actually I loved EQ grind because getting a new level meant something there. Like getting to 50 and becoming Reaver instead of Shadow Knight in /who search :) I'm not saying that I'd like to grind months again but hitting max level in a couple of days is just wrong imho. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by adam_nox

stopped reading at lineage 2, that should never be used as an example for anything.

 

and maybe he's been playing 20 hours a day.  did Tera have early access or anything?

Yes I know L2 is the extreme end of grind, but DAOC was a reasonable example had you kept reading a little further.

And yes, TERA did have a head start but no, I wasn't complaining about his level, or even how much he has played (I'm sure there's level 60s' already) but just the general attitude that he feels the leveling is too slow.

Believe me, it's not slow by any reasonable measure of the past, but perhaps compared to today's player expectations it's excessive?  I just don't see it, but then again, while I chase the carrot as much as the next guy I don't mind spending a reasonable amount of time enjoying the journey.

Also I wanted to note, this is not related to just TERA, I saw the same attitude with SWTOR, people just racing towards the finish and being disappointed at what they found at the end of the rainbow.

 

I don't think it's all that extreme.  What's wrong with not being able to hit max level for a year?  Lineage 2 was a lot of fun and I never felt my level was holding me back.  I played for a while and never even made A grade (forget S).  Nobody is forcing you to get there in any set time frame (or at all for that matter).  Players are free to quit at any time.

To me, it's not how fast or slow the leveling goes.  It's how long the game has content to keep me interested.  If it's, go kill 1000 furbolgs to gain a level, then I'm not interested.  If it's go kill 5 of these, 10 of those, and so forth, then I'm fine with it taking months to reach the cap, so long as I've got adequately varied content along the way.

I think that it is foolish to try to skip as much of the content as you possibly can on the way to the level cap and then complain about the lack of content at the level cap.

The underlying criticism probably isn't leveling rate but the rate of new experiences/content.

Oldschool games weren't somehow better for having worse rates of new things.  That was part of why they were pretty bad (and consequently unpopular) games.

This post hits home on a topic I have been struggling with lately. I recall my days with Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies and also, City of Heroes among others. You didn't plow through the game to cap. You went on a journey with your Character. MMO leveling was't measured in days/weeks but months/years (Years if casual)

In the early days, if you leveled, you went out, grouped up and just started killing mobs. Those who played CoH will probably remember SKing up and sitting at the entrance to the instance map while the 50s went off to kill Dreck. Rappelz has DPs, Dungeon Parties. You went into an instance, found your spot and just killed and killed in teams. Anarchy Online had Heck Teams or Cyborg Teams. SWG had teams as well, you joined a party and just went out to do your thing.

The point is, back then if you wanted to level, you teamed up and went out and did it together. Maybe this is why Asians still love grinders. Because to them, it's not a grind if you team up with some buddies and all head out and tackle the job in a group.

Somewhere along the line, (I think it was WoW 2.3) The devs got the idea that hitting level cap had to be done entirely through solo questing and that there needed to be enough quests to hit cap without grinding. This stuck. Now, in the west, as MMOs become more CPU/GPU intensive, the quality of the content has increased. But I think the trade off has come in the quantity of quests getting smaller. So now since there are fewer quests to be done, Cap has gotten closer and closer.

Just last week, In Rift, I started a new Warrior on a fresh server. I am doing everything content wise. I will not leave Freemarch until I have done everything there is to do in Freemarch. This means, I will have all the level appropriate dungeon gear, PVP gear, Planar gear, All my profession skills will be leveled appropriately and I will have completed all quests and "Easter Egg" content there is. I am not even 1/3 done and I am level 16. I will lock at 19 and finish before moving to Stonefield. This time, It's about the content, not the levels.

You know what? It's actually been more fun this way than Powering to 50.

People who rush madly to max level are nutjobs.

Originally posted by nationalcity

It's because gamers now day's don't care about the leveling process..

This ^

Think about it this way. Many of us have been playing MMOs for over almost a decade now, if not longer. That's A LOT of lvl grinding. We shouldn't really have to devote a year of our lives to grinding, every time a new MMO comes out, just to experience the 'endgame' content. This is also one of the big problems w/ lvl & gear grind games. Most of us gamers have played enough of these to know that the amount of time that used to be invested towards getting to the 'fun stuff', was just not a fair trade off. Why should we have to wait a year, if not longer, to experience the full game? What other types of games make you do that? Would you be satisfied if you bought a mass effect game, but couldn't see the ending until a year after release? I know I would be pretty pissed.

This is one case in which I don't think gamers are being spoiled. Expecting people to devote up to 1-2% of their total life span to a video game, just to have a shot at experience the full product (which they paid for and then some) is ridiculous. This used to be fun, back when MMOs were relatively new, because it was about the journey. We wanted to see where it would take us. However, that journey is gone. We know what's at the end of the road, and most of us are tired of it.

Many of us like endgame content (or at least expect it), but the timesink isn't good game design, it's a stall tactic. It's what you do when you need to ensure that people don't reach the end before you can put out new content. Or it's something you do when you want to milk subs.

- If your friend is powerlvling (which it sounds like he is), and playing 20 hours or more a day, then he should be able to hit (i think it's max 50? or was it 60) in about a week. If you're right, and there really isn't much to do at max lvl, then that would be extremely embarassing for TERA. The game has had over a year to fix itself up for the west. Lacking in content shouldn't be excuseable for this game, it's had pleanty of time.

Originally posted by Axehilt

The underlying criticism probably isn't leveling rate but the rate of new experiences/content.

Oldschool games weren't somehow better for having worse rates of new things.  That was part of why they were pretty bad (and consequently unpopular) games.

Oldschool games were better because back then new experiances were more frequent. Leveling wasn't something you've done 100 times before. Slower leveling ment more oppotunities for doing new things.

Leveling fast and getting to cap in a short amount of time with so few endgame options is a bad mmo game. There aren't very many new things to experience in mmos anymore.