[mod edit]

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The problem is, the hard core Sandboxers have gone to extremes when defining what a  Sandbox is, so that if a game truely had all thing elements that they define as "Sandbox," it would either be totally unplayable; or it would be "Second Life" and not really a game at all.

By your definition you just posted GW2 is a full sandbox game. There are no quest hubs to guide you from one objective to another or any quests outside of your main story that drive you in any particular direction. And im pretty sure noone here believes that GW2 should be classified as "sandbox".

So you have to make the decision. Stick to your definition from wikipedia and call both TES and GW2 sandbox games. Or admit that maybe wikipedia isnt always 100% accurate or have the last word on what a final definition is.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Tanon

Originally posted by Unreal024

What your talking about is an open world. Being able to roam freely and do what you want is not a sandbox. It doesn't matter what games people want to label as a sandbox, the very word sandbox implies creation. Therefore, every sandbox game should rely heavily on player created content, something which TES has never done.

Nexusmods says otherwise.

Guess that makes WoW a sandbox then. 

 

 

If having an open world; being able to roam freely and do what you want isn't a sandbox, that is alright, that is still exactly what I want in an MMO. I don't care about how it is labeled.

Oh, I totally agree.  I'm just commenting about the fact that somewhere along the line, the definition of a "sandbox" game got pretty muddled.  

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Jeul

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

No housing, no player vampires, no player werewolves, no freedom to join the faction you want as the race you want, there's many TES mechanics that seem to be missing.

I may be missing something, but none of the information I've read yet states any of this.  Where are you getting this info?

[mod edit]

I've never posted here.  I was referred here by one of my guildies. 

Anyways... can you answer my question?  I'm not being rude or anything... just asking.

Originally posted by Unreal024

I agree somewhat, but I disagree with you on a few things.

 

1. TES series are not sandbox games, so why should an ES MMO be?

 

2. The three faction PvP system sounds much better than FFA.

 

I could care less that it's going to play a lot like your standard themepark, what angers me is that it's doing away with FPV, twitch combat, housing, free form character progression and probably a whole lot more. It could still be a fun game, whether or not I decide to give it a go will depend on a few things, one being payment model.

You honestly expect devs to make a non-theme park game now a days? good luck there. You can thank world of warcraft for that.

Originally posted by aslan132

By your definition you just posted GW2 is a full sandbox game. There are no quest hubs to guide you from one objective to another or any quests outside of your main story that drive you in any particular direction. And im pretty sure noone here believes that GW2 should be classified as "sandbox".

So you have to make the decision. Stick to your definition from wikipedia and call both TES and GW2 sandbox games. Or admit that maybe wikipedia isnt always 100% accurate or have the last word on what a final definition is.

Level keeps you from doing what you want. There are artificial limitations in place to keep there from being "no wrong way to play".

Games like UO lacked these artificial limitations, while you may not be as effective as others you were still able to contribute even if your character was freshly made.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

The problem is, the hard core Sandboxers have gone to extremes when defining what a  Sandbox is, so that if a game truely had all thing elements that they define as "Sandbox," it would either be totally unplayable; or it would be "Second Life" and not really a game at all.

 

 

Not at all, there's no extreme here, the only thing is, TES has never really offered (in package) what consititutes the key to the word sandbox, world related creation and tools for it. There are other descriptors made that apply much more to what TES is, non-linear, freee roaming, open-ended, and yes even IMO themepark in some regard (themepark doesn't exactly mean linear, it's in reference to themed rides which TES has in spades).

You can have all that TES is and not be a sandbox, you can have all that TES is and be a sandbox, with a few additions. This is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

That's strange because as a UO vet we used Unreal024's understanding. The way you understand it is they way it was twisted by marketing departments.

Ok, instead of arguing over what a sandbox is - can someone tell me where you guys are getting your info on it not having player housing, vampires, etc...?  Pretty please?  :D

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

I only pointed out the highlighted to prove that sandbox and open world is not the same thing, which is exactly what that says. Open world or free roam refers to the environment, whereas sandbox refers to the game mechanics. You can have an open ended free roaming themepark, which is exactly what TES is.

Originally posted by Jeul

Ok, instead of arguing over what a sandbox is - can someone tell me where you guys are getting your info on it not having player housing, vampires, etc...?  Pretty please?  :D

There was a leaked bit of info linked earlier. I don't remember which thread but I think it was in the official announcement article's discussion.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

That's strange because as a UO vet we used Unreal024's understanding. The way you understand it is they way it was twisted by marketing departments.

Alright then lets just say this....

In the TES series if you wanted a house you got a house wether you killed someone and took one, bought one or found one empty. If you wanted to kill off an entire town you could. If you wanted to do the main quest you could. If you wanted to make a warrior that could cast spells and summon creatures you could. You could do what you want, you could do it the way you want, you had plently of creativity allowed, customization, and freedom.

If you don't understand how that makes the TES series sandbox I can't help you.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

The problem is, the hard core Sandboxers have gone to extremes when defining what a  Sandbox is, so that if a game truely had all thing elements that they define as "Sandbox," it would either be totally unplayable; or it would be "Second Life" and not really a game at all.

 

 

Not at all, there's no extreme here, the only thing is, TES has never really offered (in package) what consititutes the key to the word sandbox, world related creation and tools for it. There are other descriptors made that apply much more to what TES is, non-linear, freee roaming, open-ended, and yes even IMO themepark in some regard (themepark doesn't exactly mean linear, it's in reference to themed rides which TES has in spades).

You can have all that TES is and not be a sandbox, you can have all that TES is and be a sandbox, with a few additions. This is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Well since we now have that subject covered. The next one is, Will the Elder Scroll game give us the freedom that the single player did Or, at the very least, as much freedom as they can given the multiplayer restrictions. I am worried that the Elder Scrolls game will be "Elder Scrolls" in name only. 

Originally posted by Jeul

Ok, instead of arguing over what a sandbox is - can someone tell me where you guys are getting your info on it not having player housing, vampires, etc...?  Pretty please?  :D

You're going to have to google for scans from the gameinformer magazine. We're not allowed to post them or link to them.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

That's strange because as a UO vet we used Unreal024's understanding. The way you understand it is they way it was twisted by marketing departments.

Alright then lets just say this....

In the TES series if you wanted a house you got a house wether you killed someone and took one, bought one or found one empty. If you wanted to kill off an entire town you could. If you wanted to do the main quest you could. If you wanted to make a warrior that could cast spells and summon creatures you could. You could do what you want, you could do it the way you want, you had plently of creativity allowed, customization, and freedom.

If you don't understand how that makes the TES series sandbox I can't help you.

It's because none of those things are creating anything thing. As a player can I build a house? A boat? Can I change the landscape? Everything you mention is in Fable as well and I don't consider that sandbox either.

The first part of the post's title is disappointing.  No FPS combat and no FFA PvP are *enormous* pluses in my book.  3 faction PvP > FFA PvP.  If I wanted FPS style combat Id go play a FPS, doesnt gel with a MMORPG to me.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Unreal024

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

It amazes me what people try to label a themepark. No, after all these years the TES series has not magically been reclassified as a themepark lol. Sorry man, you may feel differently but it is called and accepted as a sandbox due to the open world. You may not like it or agree with it but apparently your opinion isn't the widely accepted one.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.^[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";^[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,^[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

 

Hell here I'll even give you the above, a wikipedia refference on the matter.

Grand Theft Auto is widely considered a sandbox

UO

TES series

I mean you aren't required to agree but you do need to acknowledge your view on what a sandbox is not the widely accepted one. In accepting that you can see why your comments above are being regarded as incorrect.

Oh, I completely agree. Everyone has differing opionions, my opinion is just based on the actual meaning of the word sandbox. You do agree that in a sandbox (the actual one we all played in as children) it's all about using your imagination to create things? And that, if your going to label something a sandbox it should, by definition, be about creating things, or at least have it as a feature?

 

Even the paragraph that you posted, which I highlighted in red, points out the diference between sandbox and open world or free roam.

The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"^[5] of playing the game.

You really should read what you highlight before saying it proves your point.

But yeah... by your definition it's not a sandbox unless we have a box with sand that we can make sand castles out of? Why does this younger generation forget that many of these definitions were meant to describe aspects and not to always be taken as a literally translation.

Being from the generation that first used the term in regards to gaming I kind of know what I meant when using the term.

That's strange because as a UO vet we used Unreal024's understanding. The way you understand it is they way it was twisted by marketing departments.

Alright then lets just say this....

In the TES series if you wanted a house you got a house wether you killed someone and took one, bought one or found one empty. If you wanted to kill off an entire town you could. If you wanted to do the main quest you could. If you wanted to make a warrior that could cast spells and summon creatures you could. You could do what you want, you could do it the way you want, you had plently of creativity allowed, customization, and freedom.

If you don't understand how that makes the TES series sandbox I can't help you.

It's because none of those things are creating anything thing. As a player can I build a house? A boat? Can I change the landscape? Everything you mention is in Fable as well and I don't consider that sandbox either.

Well at least we agree on fable lol. So maybe you aren't a completely lost cause.