Well yes, I disagree with this threads basic idea too.

SWTOR is an example for an expensive MMO that was developed with a bad idea about what the gamer wants.

But just because there is a bad themepark out there, that wont motivate ANYONE to play more sandboxes. Being a themepark was not the problem of SWTOR, after all.

If somebody wants more sandbox fans, obviously what we need would be more and better sandbox games.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.

Originally posted by Abdar
The OP is either trolling, or honestly doesn't know what a sandbox MMO is.. either way, SWTOR is probably the most opposite sandbox MMO out there.

I would say it's the latter.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Three weeks? Really? That means what? Sure, you can have a opinion of a game in three weeks but to make such uninformed comments represents more a bias against the genre then against the game itself.

Let's take one example, "I want a living, breathing immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty sith Spells." So you are comparing SWTOR to CoD? What? I see NO first person shooter in SWTOR. What in the world does that quote even mean? Obviosly, it was meant more to highlight YOUR opinioin but is in fact incorrect in usage.

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.

 

Both DF and MO are poor games. DF has abysmal game design, MO is... a clusterf*ck.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

 

So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right? 

Look at Tor Status and you will see the data.  Notice that Tor has been hemoragimng subs everyday since January.  There is a numvber at the bottom that shows total decline/gain for all servers over the over the last week. They had a gain for 3 consecutive days when 1.2 was released but that has quickly ended and they are again hemoraging subs every day.  There are 10 NA servers left with a moderate population.  Look at the numbers most servers are dead.  If they merge now they could likely  merge into 30 total NA and Euro servers but at the rate they are going they will be down to 3-4 vialble servers in a couple of months.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok so by all accounts the second most popular western mmo is a failure financially?

What does a game have to do to succeed? Triple wows numbers on launch day?

SWTOR was initially successful due to two things: 1) It's Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.

If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.

Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.

I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.

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Originally posted by Indol

SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
 
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
 
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
 
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
 
 

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You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..

As I always said

SWTOR must die so the MMOS might live !

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Indol

SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
 
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
 
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
 
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
 
 

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You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..

It was clearly successful at generating sales. That's what he was saying and i'm not disputing that. It's the longevity of the game that's important now.

Initial sales mean less and less over time. Eventually the game has to show it's own worth to ensure continued success.

Originally posted by Azorith

MMOs in general have been dead to me for years. I try to get into them, and get bored in weeks. I can't bring myself to start new games, and can't enjoy my time in old games I've played before. Attacks and animations are the same boring crap for years, just dolled up with new colors.

I honestly think the only thing that can save the MMO genre is full virtual immersion. It's obvious game devs can't come up with anything new. So when the platform is changed, MMOs will change.

Man, this is were I have been for the last 3 years. I been grinding out MMO's since their inception and nothing can hold me anymore. Furthermore, my frustrations have trickled over to my other game genre's. I am starting to think that my days of gaming entirely are coming to an end. For me, the fast paced hack and loot of D3 will hopefully suffice. 

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

My exact words !

I think GW2 is going to have the combination of Themepark base, and the tricks to make it seem Sandboxy in the face of that Themepark base (like scaling), overshadow most of it's Sandbox feel. But it is a step in the right direction, I suppose.

What I'm afraid of is that any lean towards Sandbox design will stop right there, instead of progressing more, if GW2 is widely successful. But maybe not, who knows.

With some real luck, players will see something about what Sandbox means, and call for more forcing the industry to see that Sandbox is indeed the future.

Originally posted by Indol

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Indol

SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
 
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
 
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
 
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
 
 

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You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..

It was clearly successful at generating sales. That's what he was saying and i'm not disputing that. It's the longevity of the game that's important now.

 

Initial sales mean less and less over time. Eventually the game has to show it's own worth to ensure continued success.

I'd bet that a lot of their initial sales were to SW collectors. Who knows what percentage. I wonder if they had to have an account (that shows on the books) to buy their unopened collector box?

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Originally posted by Tranquilliti
Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO. 

What he means, is that because of his assumption of SWTOR being an utter failure, it somehow proves that people want sandboxes.

Thats why its a win for sandbox players.

*Tera

*GW2

*TSW

*MoP

the list goes on and on

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

 

Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

I've never played SWTOR but you are basing your opinion off what idiots on the internet say?!?  I won't say you are right or wrong but really?

If forums were any indicator of how good or bad a game is doing wow would of crashed and burned a long time ago.

The objective of this thread is laughable.

WoW, which is still a massive success and lucrative, has no sign of immediate failure. That is a MAJOR LOOSE FOR SANDBOX PLAYERS. So much that any failure of another themepark is minor in comparison.

as if that anything to do with it anyway...

Originally posted by mmoguy43

The objective of this thread is laughable.

WoW, which is still a massive success and lucrative, has no sign of immediate failure. That is a MAJOR LOOSE FOR SANDBOX PLAYERS. So much that any failure of another themepark is minor in comparison.

as if that anything to do with it anyway...

Really? Can you give us some real current numbers? I mean, without all the freebie stuff that's keeping numbers on the books? How many are playing it right now?

No numbers? Imagine that! Just reports of heavy losses on Crossfire. Just reports of players leaving in droves on boards. Just loads of reports of gamers sticking around only for a short while longer. Just reports of worlds empty of players.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Professor78

There ya go, server populations not doing great.
http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

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It does not? Seems fairly stable.

Look at the small graph underneath the main one, it covers a much longer timeframe.