MMOs in general have been dead to me for years. I try to get into them, and get bored in weeks. I can't bring myself to start new games, and can't enjoy my time in old games I've played before. Attacks and animations are the same boring crap for years, just dolled up with new colors.

I honestly think the only thing that can save the MMO genre is full virtual immersion. It's obvious game devs can't come up with anything new. So when the platform is changed, MMOs will change.

The problem with statements like the OP's are there is obvioulsy a much larger audience for the mainstream MMO's of today then there was a decade ago. How many themepark MMO's were there back then? I don't know if there were any, at least I can't think of one until WoW. With the ammount of people WoW dragged into this genre of gaming it is only a natural reaction of the gaming companies to want to copy Blizzards sucess.

There won't be a resurgence of sandbox titles until one comes out that is a big success. Companies aren't in this buisness to give you wnat you want. They are in the buisness to make money off of people. All sandboxers can do is wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first. It's just the way things are today. I'm not a themepark fanboy nor am I a sandbox one either, I'm a fan of MMO's so I play what suits me and ignore the rest. It's the best we as a MMO community can do to feed our addictions.

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

There are good indicators: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/349680/Seems-like-the-game-has-peaked-on-XFire-Part-2.html

I'd been avoiding that thread because XFire threads around here usually get really weird. Will go check that out.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok so by all accounts the second most popular western mmo is a failure financially?

What does a game have to do to succeed? Triple wows numbers on launch day?

the only thing swtor was successful at was using its NAME to con pre-orders out of the masses.

I was a collectors pre-order, from the first available week, and I didn't even play out my full free month. There are many others like me.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

 

So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right? 

There ya go, server populations not doing great.

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Here's the problem with your statement...

Developers don't care about SWTOR's failure so it means absolutely little to them in regards to starting sandbox games. What they look for are the 'successful' MMO's. Just like with many things in life if someone sees another using a certain method that gains them success they tend to try to immulate that direction for themselves to gain that success. If they try to learn anything from SWTOR's difficulties (as I won't call it a failure with the amount of subs it has) it will be the innovate their direction more like GW2 or TSW is doing. It won't be 'Let's chunk the whole theme park idea altogether and go completely against the main stream!'

For AAA companies that is too much of a risk and gamble. They can't go to their boards and executivies pitching an idea that has not shown an inkling of success other than a niche market and say 'Hey! Give me your money for me to try this completely revolutionizing idea even if we have no data to back it up!' Business doesn't work like that. Smaller or indie companies can take that type of gamble but for AAA's it's a heavy risk that most won't come toward with a ten foot pole.

So no, SWTOR's failures does nothing for sandboxers but it may do something for innovation toward the themepark direction.

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Originally posted by Professor78

There ya go, server populations not doing great.
http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

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It does not? Seems fairly stable.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Not sure what this has to do w/ sandboxers, but I'm all for more innovative / interesting games. So far I'm really enjoying GW2. While I've played sandboxes in the past that I really enjoyed, I feel like they tend to have more problems than they solve. For one I hate dealing w/ gankers & griefers. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I tend to always bump into them, and it's always very annoying.

That said, GW2 kinda puts itself somewhere inbetween the standard themepark & sandbox. It's not completely open, but it has a lot of freedom, in a balanced sort of way.

However, if what you're looking for is an actual sandbox, Archage is looking to be a pretty decent one from what I've heard.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

Originally posted by Tranquilliti
Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO. 

Go back and re-read my post. Not just the Title.

 Well, the title is a bit misleading. SWTOR is a win for sandbox players and MMO's. The other side (themepark) losing doesn't necessarily mean a win for the Sandbox or even MMO's in general. When MMO = big risk, stay away, then all MMO's could lose if TOR fails as badly as you claim.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again.  I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre. 

Originally posted by Professor78

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

 

So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right? 

There ya go, server populations not doing great.

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

They said server pops were low a while ago.. That's nothing new. The OP's argument was based on the statement that SWTOR was a costly failure - a claim that can neither be confirmed nor refusted by PCU.

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again.  I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre. 

I agree. I'd speculate that we're going to be looking at future MMOs being developed for a fraction of that cost, probably in the range of whatever they feel they can recouperate from initial box sales and preorders.

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Originally posted by Tranquilliti
Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO. 

What he means, is that because of his assumption of SWTOR being an utter failure, it somehow proves that people want sandboxes.

Thats why its a win for sandbox players.

Or maybe even just a game that isn't totally Dumbed Down and sold as something it's not.

Yumm

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Originally posted by comrademario

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Originally posted by MARTYB2K
Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)
Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)
Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

---

 
Not saying you're wrong on the main point, as I didn't play SWTOR for one minute (I prefer original worlds to explore, not Star Wars, Middle Earth, the Seven Kingdoms or any other spin offs) but on the point of 'the customer is always right'
 
No they aren't, the customer usually hasn't a clue what they're talking about and mouths off about anything and everything :P
 
Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game,

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couldnt agree more. all u hear from r the complainers because the ones enjoying the game r playing, not posting.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by MARTYB2K

I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

There are good indicators: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/349680/Seems-like-the-game-has-peaked-on-XFire-Part-2.html

I'd been avoiding that thread because XFire threads around here usually get really weird. Will go check that out.

Metenso has been hard at work collecting statistics.

Of course it is x-fire, and there are problems with using it, but it has proven itself at showing trends IMO.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4937471

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Originally posted by MARTYB2K
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

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