Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by SirFubar

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Originally posted by NBlitz

Can't I buy gems with in-game gold? 

That'd make this whole discussion at this point in time trivial.

Ya, you can. Atleast you could in the beta weekend, so I assume its there to stay.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but about the trading of gems for gold and vice versa, you can't actually trade gold for gems from a merchant in the game right? You need to find a player that bought some gems and who's willing to trade them to you for gold. That's how I understand it when Anet released info on it.

It's just like the EVE plex system.  A player buys Gems and puts them up for sale where other players can buy them for gold.  There is no baseline GEM inventory so the price of Gems will be set by what others are willing to sell them for and there is not a unlimitied supply although the higher the price is the more people will want to supply them stabalizing the price.

Its a wonderful system for Anet because no matter how you buy gems (cash or gold) someone, somewhere is giving them cash for the Gems.  And if there is a transaction fee (I don't know for sure there is) it's even better as Anet gets a cut of the profits everytime Gems exchange hands.

Thanks for the clarification! I just don't understand why someone would want to buy gems and trade them to others players for gold, I mean gold won't be that hard to get ingame? Nway if I can buy gems from someone with my gold I'll be happy but I surely won't trade the gems I have bought for gold lol.

There are NOT 8 classes I want to play, so that argument is void, bank and personal space may be tight, but ultimately there is a limit whether it's the limit at the start or the one i buy into, so not really worried about that.

And, there's nothing stopping me from buying 2, 3, or 4 accounts. With no monthly fees I can have 10 characters for $120 AND have one crafting while the other is out harvesting/mailing to him. All for the cost of 8 months of one wow subscription.

Originally posted by Pyuk
Why do people think developers are running a charitable organization when it comes to games? Ok, GW2 you pay for the box copy and get to play the thing whenever and however you want for as much as you want without a monthly fee. The intial box sales only carry the cost of maintaining the servers for so long. Are we to assume ANet should foot the bill for the long haul because they are just a great bunch of guys with nothing better to do with their time? No. They are a business and they need a steady cahs flow. They learned from GW1 that not having an in-game store of some sort hurts their bottom line over the long haul - and they want to stay viable and profitable over the long haul. I just don't get this feeling of entitlement that so many gamers feel these days. It's bloody annoying.

^

It's amazing how many gamers feel entitled to get so much for so little.  If it wasn't for GWs cash shop, GW2 would never had happened.  All the profit they made from it, and the investment made by NCSoft..that would have never had happened without ArenaNet showing their figures.

Over a 4-5 year course of playing GW2, it'll cost less than the standard subscription MMO.  There's no question about it.  Unless you're the rare person who tends to spend more than they realize lol...

You can buy Gems with Gold, thread/case closed!

What did you expect? this is nothing new really in the world of cash shop financed games at all. You didn't really think Arenanet wouldn't gouge the hell out of you for stuff like that did you? Of course they will, cosmetic only items don't sell often in cash shops, well thats mostly cuz the shops want like 10-20 US for a virtual shirt with no stats. It could be worse it could be like champions online or city of heroes where half the game features are locked and you have to either sub or buy the feature. You don't really *need* those extra 3 bag slots, you can probally do without just fine. 5 char slots is also plenty, its not like your gonna be playing all 5 chars constantly. Most people have 1 or 2 mains that they focus on.

All I can say is if you think the cash shop is bad now, I bet its going to get worse about a month after release. I have seen many games claim they wouldn't have any pay2win items, but they always eventually come. Especally in f2p's with pvp, pvp players will pay a obscene amout of rl money just to hit like 1% harder than someone else, i've seen it done. I know a guy in some pvp based f2p that I can't remember the name of and he spends 100 to 200 US a month just to compete on a even level.

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Pyuk
Why do people think developers are running a charitable organization when it comes to games? Ok, GW2 you pay for the box copy and get to play the thing whenever and however you want for as much as you want without a monthly fee. The intial box sales only carry the cost of maintaining the servers for so long. Are we to assume ANet should foot the bill for the long haul because they are just a great bunch of guys with nothing better to do with their time? No. They are a business and they need a steady cahs flow. They learned from GW1 that not having an in-game store of some sort hurts their bottom line over the long haul - and they want to stay viable and profitable over the long haul. I just don't get this feeling of entitlement that so many gamers feel these days. It's bloody annoying.

^

It's amazing how many gamers feel entitled to get so much for so little.  If it wasn't for GWs cash shop, GW2 would never had happened.  All the profit they made from it, and the investment made by NCSoft..that would have never had happened without ArenaNet showing their figures.

Over a 4-5 year course of playing GW2, it'll cost less than the standard subscription MMO.  There's no question about it.  Unless you're the rare person who tends to spend more than they realize lol...

You really can't promise that can you without knowing what GW2's expansion plans are?  Will we see a dozen adventure expansions over the next year each for $10 plus new class/race unlocks and other cash shop items?  If we do you could very easily pay as much if not more than a sub game might cost you and certainly more than some F2P games like LOTR's and DDO would cost.  

A few months ago GW2 was being sold as a buy once and play for as long as you want wonderland.  Than it became buy once and optional cash shop until the next expansion in a few months and new cash shop items are added.  As many are pointing out the cash shop looks a lot less optional than first appeared now.  What's next?  Sometimes I feel like we are all frogs sitting in a giant pot with the game companies slowely turning up the heat a little bit at a time.

I don't expect a game to be free but I do expect it to repersent it's costs up front in a honest manner.  Rather by fan hype or dev misrepersentation GW2 doesn't feel like its doing that.  Anet can't be blamed for Fan hype but they are not doing a whole lot to correct the misconceptions people are passing along either.

Originally posted by -=Ashas=-

You can buy Gems with Gold, thread/case closed!

If Anet provided those Gems for in game gold I would agree with you.  But that's how it works.  Anet doesn't care if you buy gems with gold or cash because someone somewhere had to purchase those gems with cash so they get paid either way.  In fact assuming there is a broker transaction fee (I don't know for sure there is) they prefer it because they get a cut of every transactions of Gems for gold.

What's not to like if you are Anet about that.

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Pyuk
Why do people think developers are running a charitable organization when it comes to games? Ok, GW2 you pay for the box copy and get to play the thing whenever and however you want for as much as you want without a monthly fee. The intial box sales only carry the cost of maintaining the servers for so long. Are we to assume ANet should foot the bill for the long haul because they are just a great bunch of guys with nothing better to do with their time? No. They are a business and they need a steady cahs flow. They learned from GW1 that not having an in-game store of some sort hurts their bottom line over the long haul - and they want to stay viable and profitable over the long haul. I just don't get this feeling of entitlement that so many gamers feel these days. It's bloody annoying.

^

It's amazing how many gamers feel entitled to get so much for so little.  If it wasn't for GWs cash shop, GW2 would never had happened.  All the profit they made from it, and the investment made by NCSoft..that would have never had happened without ArenaNet showing their figures.

Over a 4-5 year course of playing GW2, it'll cost less than the standard subscription MMO.  There's no question about it.  Unless you're the rare person who tends to spend more than they realize lol...

You really can't promise that can you without knowing what GW2's expansion plans are?  Will we see a dozen adventure expansions over the next year each for $10 plus new class/race unlocks and other cash shop items?  If we do you could very easily pay as much if not more than a sub game might cost you and certainly more than some F2P games like LOTR's and DDO would cost.  

A few months ago GW2 was being sold as a buy once and play for as long as you want wonderland.  Than it became buy once and optional cash shop until the next expansion in a few months and new cash shop items are added.  As many are pointing out the cash shop looks a lot less optional than first appeared now.  What's next?  Sometimes I feel like we are all frogs sitting in a giant pot with the game companies slowely turning up the heat a little bit at a time.

I don't expect a game to be free but I do expect it to repersent it's costs up front in a honest manner.  Rather by fan hype or dev misrepersentation GW2 doesn't feel like its doing that.  Anet can't be blamed for Fan hype but they are not doing a whole lot to correct the misconceptions people are passing along either.

Anyone who played GW1 and followed the development of GW2 already knows about the Cash Shop, we all know it will be there, we just didn't know how they were gonna implement it.

Ever since I heard about GW2, i know there will be a Cash Shop, the items during BWE was exactly what was expected. We also knows about expansions, and that we will be paying for these expansions. Most players are basing their informations on GW1 and how it was ran. So its all speculations, and I doubt Anet knows what they will be doing in their expansions, they are more worry about getting the Core game out so that we can play it.

Expansions are in development, that we know but i doubt anyone knows what will be in them, and how long they will take to come out.

I don't know about you, but GW2 is buy once and play for as long as you want, the Cash Shop is out of the way enough that you never have to pay for anything if you don't want to. If you are that worried about a Cash Shop then by all means, don't play it, its not like the only MMO out there.

I'm still confused by the problem being had with bags.

Unless they severely jump up the amount of junk drops, GW2 currently needs extra bag slots LESS than other MMOs I've played, like WoW, Rift, CO, CoH...

Probably Asheron's Call and DAoC too, though I can't remember that far back, though I do remember occasionally being frustrated by bag space. :P

If they just kept the 5 bag slots and never had cash shop to unlock the extra 3, people would just adapt.  They have more systems than any other game I've seen, to accomodate your inventory... crafting extra bags is easy, you can send crafting supplies straight to your bank, stores freaking everywhere, items can be broken down with salvage kits so they're materials...

It's honestly amazingly convenient.

Basically you have a game where the junk drops aren't outrageous, where stores are everywhere, where you can teleport, where you can break down many drops into crafting supplies, where crafting supplies basically take 0 inventory space, where it's easy and convenient to get big bags...

... and people are complaining because in order to make one of the most convenient storage games ever more convenient, they're adding things to the cash shop?

You do realize that in most subscription games, the limited items slots and constant junk drops with 0 teleports is actual 'added gameplay' right?  Where running back and forth to the store constantly is just there to pad out your game time so you're getting your money's worth for your subscription? :D

Originally posted by Pyuk
Why do people think developers are running a charitable organization when it comes to games? Ok, GW2 you pay for the box copy and get to play the thing whenever and however you want for as much as you want without a monthly fee. The intial box sales only carry the cost of maintaining the servers for so long. Are we to assume ANet should foot the bill for the long haul because they are just a great bunch of guys with nothing better to do with their time? No. They are a business and they need a steady cahs flow. They learned from GW1 that not having an in-game store of some sort hurts their bottom line over the long haul - and they want to stay viable and profitable over the long haul. I just don't get this feeling of entitlement that so many gamers feel these days. It's bloody annoying.

I have no idea how this phenomenon occurred but it is irrational for people to expect everything for little or nothing. It may stem from how people may consider Devs as gamers and not working adults/business owners and many gamers may not be familiar with business models. 

In my opinion of business models GW2 will end up being the most fair for the gamer and developer. I personally left WoW due to the gouging they do as a subscription game, I said once before I make votes with my wallet for these kinds of things.

WoW is 15 dollars a month, they charge for name changes, race changes, faction transfers, server transfers, special pets, special mounts and possibly other things since I have last played.

GW2 charges for alot of the same (Minus guesting servers which is a plus) and they sell convinience buffs for XP and things of the sort which are fine with me as many would imagine.

Now think of that comparison, HAVE to pay 15 dollars a month + cosmetic changes you want/changes to play on other servers or CAN pay 0 dollars a month + whatever cosmetic changes you want - cost to play on servers with friends (Excluding WvWvW play)

In the end the comparison of the two business models means ANET has to offer content such as expansions and cosmetics to make their revenue, Blizzard makes their base rate well over the bottom line in sub fees. In the case of GW2 if they release a single bad expansion or unwanted items and people dont buy them they have near instant revenue loss since time to make the content is unrewarded.

For any non sub game there is also likely more emphasis for quality gameplay and mechanics compared to timesinks required to justify ongoing subscriptions. Now some people may like timesinks which is fine,  and there is hope for some added longevity to games like in GW1 with timesinks that are there as achievements and not barreirs to entry into game content (Gear grinds, rep grinds).

 Think about how that business model incentivizes quality and production, and if ANET goes too far with making lucrative items aka legit P2W items people will definietly quit and riot on forums. It is similar with sub games with cash shops but there is more of a leak for revenue since subscriptions make people more likely to try poor content due to time prior time commitments.

Even now the idea of P2W makes people have very vocal reactions, imagine with certainty through videos or proof of P2W. ANET being a business must be smart enough to know their limits combined with their experience of the GW1 cash shop to avoid this.

TLDR:

Some people want everything for nothing, think they are entitled which is a very common consumer behavior but seems moreso for gamers for a variety of reasons.

B2P games (GW1/GW2) are imo more fair to consumer and developers compared to subs or F2P

In the end reality is votes are made with wallets, and only time will tell how this ends up for GW2 and ANETs business model compared to Sub models + cash shops, and F2Ps. 

Originally posted by kanezfan

One thing that no one has brought up yet is who the hell is gonna buy all that stuff mentioned in the OP right away? I mean seriously, do you really see yourself logging in the first day and saying "I need 8 slots and all the bags and here's all this money." I know there will be people that do that but come on. And look, you can pay $15 a month to play WoW but if you want to move to another server, it's $25, PER CHARACTER, if you want to change how you look, it's $15. You have to pay $15 a month to keep playing it and look at the game right now, it's going on what, 6 months now since dragon soul came out? Aren't people bored of it yet? How much longer until MoP comes out, and then, you'll be forking out another $40 to play that.

You people are unreasonable. I would hate the CS if they had an item that cost $250 and it gave you an instant 80 in PvE with much better armor and equipment than you could get in game, THAT is pay to win. There's nothing like that and there won't be. All that is there is fluff. A pirate costume that you can only wear as a town costume? It automatically reverts to your combat gear if you enter combat. A one hour xp boost that is truly meaningless when I never saw a mob give me more than like 20-30 xp. You get down leveled if you go to lower level areas anyway so who cares about leveling faster?

Stop being such drama queens, I mean you all probably buy madden every year even though it's the same thing, you probably buy map packs for $20 even though it's only 3 maps, you buy all this DLC for other games, but when Anet wants to make extra money by selling fluff because they know a few impatient players won't be able to help themselves, they're now Satan?

And again, please tell me how many people do you really think are going to spend $200 the first day buying the extra slots and all the extra bag spaces?

And as far as buying gems in game, it's gonna come down to supply and demand. If a lot of people want gems but there's not that many to buy, they'll cost a lot of gold. If there are as many people as you think that are gold buyers, then they'll flood the market with gems and gems will be cheap.

To me the best part about them selling gems is it'll kill the gold sellers, and the gold sellers will in turn have an effect on players selling gems, they'll have to come down in price to match the gold sellers, and that keeps gold seller's profits to a minimum and mostly keeps them away from the game.

very reasonable post!

My issue is not with cash shops or b2p or any other model it is the very simple fact as proven by posts here that nearly every fan of GW2 is on the defensive.

Yes I know funcom, played anarchy online from beta, yes I know it had a horrible first 3 months, it turned into one of the best if not the best scifi mmo sandboxes, I spent 6 years there full time.

I did not enjoy conan but that was more my personal fantasy taste

TSW yes I know there will be items available from the store and I actually plan on buying lots of social clothing :).

My issue is every valid negative point about GW2 and anyone elses is being seen as a troll.

Funcom were completely open about there cash shop pretty much from the beginning.

GW2 is influenced by Ncsoft, if you look at the cash shop for aion and CoH that is the future of your game.

Unlike games like EVE you will pay for every bit of future content.

Unlike most cash shops Anet is so money hungry they commit the cardinal sin of making a cash shop item able to be traded for in game currency(this is different than plex in eve) most of the cash shops in games like funcoms etc bind the items bought to you, you can not unbalance the in game economy.

Long term I hope I am proved wrong, I hope that in 6 months you all prove me wrong and I will buy the game.

You don't have to buy more bag slots, its just an another convience thing if people want them. GW1 did the same thing, and people had no qualms there [storage, not inventory]

For me I probably don't need it

Backpack has 20 slots

Bags start off as 4 but can be upgraded to 20 via buying with gold or crafted, etc.

The math: 20+20+20+20+20=100 inventory slots thats quite alot.

In addition, you can right click items such as crafting materials in your inventory and can be transfered to your bank account via anywhere in the world.

I forgot how many slots the bank holds you get more space. In addition it has its own section for crafting materials as well.

So, really...it might not cost you more thank you think.

Originally posted by calranthe

My issue is not with cash shops or b2p or any other model it is the very simple fact as proven by posts here that nearly every fan of GW2 is on the defensive.

Yes I know funcom, played anarchy online from beta, yes I know it had a horrible first 3 months, it turned into one of the best if not the best scifi mmo sandboxes, I spent 6 years there full time.

I did not enjoy conan but that was more my personal fantasy taste

TSW yes I know there will be items available from the store and I actually plan on buying lots of social clothing :).

My issue is every valid negative point about GW2 and anyone elses is being seen as a troll.

Funcom were completely open about there cash shop pretty much from the beginning.

 

GW2 is influenced by Ncsoft, if you look at the cash shop for aion and CoH that is the future of your game.

Unlike games like EVE you will pay for every bit of future content.

Unlike most cash shops Anet is so money hungry they commit the cardinal sin of making a cash shop item able to be traded for in game currency(this is different than plex in eve) most of the cash shops in games like funcoms etc bind the items bought to you, you can not unbalance the in game economy.

 

Long term I hope I am proved wrong, I hope that in 6 months you all prove me wrong and I will buy the game.

 

So lets get this straight:

1) A cash shop is good and you will support it if it's TSW

2) A cash shop is bad and will lead to the downfall of the game if it's GW2

3) Funcom is not money hungry

4) ANet is money hungry

Did you know that according to Funcom's own internal projections that on top of a $14.99 montly sub, they are expecting 35% of total revenue to come from cash shop sales. What are they putting in their to project that, on average, every player will be spending $5.25 a month on top of the subscription fee? And TSW is releasing in 6 weeks, why have we not yet seen their cash shop? Just curious.

I have no problem with subscriptions, but I do have a problem with people projecting that I'll spend $20.24/month to play the game. Are there things in the cash shop that I will need in order to enjoy their product?

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Pyuk
Why do people think developers are running a charitable organization when it comes to games? Ok, GW2 you pay for the box copy and get to play the thing whenever and however you want for as much as you want without a monthly fee. The intial box sales only carry the cost of maintaining the servers for so long. Are we to assume ANet should foot the bill for the long haul because they are just a great bunch of guys with nothing better to do with their time? No. They are a business and they need a steady cahs flow. They learned from GW1 that not having an in-game store of some sort hurts their bottom line over the long haul - and they want to stay viable and profitable over the long haul. I just don't get this feeling of entitlement that so many gamers feel these days. It's bloody annoying.

^

It's amazing how many gamers feel entitled to get so much for so little.  If it wasn't for GWs cash shop, GW2 would never had happened.  All the profit they made from it, and the investment made by NCSoft..that would have never had happened without ArenaNet showing their figures.

Over a 4-5 year course of playing GW2, it'll cost less than the standard subscription MMO.  There's no question about it.  Unless you're the rare person who tends to spend more than they realize lol...

You really can't promise that can you without knowing what GW2's expansion plans are?  Will we see a dozen adventure expansions over the next year each for $10 plus new class/race unlocks and other cash shop items?  If we do you could very easily pay as much if not more than a sub game might cost you and certainly more than some F2P games like LOTR's and DDO would cost.  

Disagree.  Just the amount saved from subscription over a 4-5 year period (~$900) should easily cover any expansion cost and a dip into the cash shop now and then.  Though I'm just speaking for myself.  2 years I've been playing LoL I've spend $40 on it.  My friends have spent a couple hundred.

A few months ago GW2 was being sold as a buy once and play for as long as you want wonderland.  Than it became buy once and optional cash shop until the next expansion in a few months and new cash shop items are added.  As many are pointing out the cash shop looks a lot less optional than first appeared now.  What's next?  Sometimes I feel like we are all frogs sitting in a giant pot with the game companies slowely turning up the heat a little bit at a time.

Everyone knew a cash shop would be coming.  ArenaNet did not give out details at those point in time because they were most likely still deciding what would be in the shop, and how much they would cost.  And the items in the cash shop are still optional.  

Why is it so hard to understand that you can just use your gold to buy from the cash shop?  Yes, you gotta trade it into gems, but if beta is any indication, a few hundred gems for some silver will look like the norm.  Which is nothing, as karma is the currency that's most valuable.

I don't expect a game to be free but I do expect it to repersent it's costs up front in a honest manner.  Rather by fan hype or dev misrepersentation GW2 doesn't feel like its doing that.  Anet can't be blamed for Fan hype but they are not doing a whole lot to correct the misconceptions people are passing along either.

They can't be upfront with it because it's still not set in stone.  They're still judging the comments and activity of the shop and more than likely, come next BWE and launch, there will be changes to it.  Fans need to take responsibility themselves to be informed and educated.  

The cash shop is still optional.  It's just convenience.

Originally posted by krage

TLDR:

Some people want everything for nothing, think they are entitled which is a very common consumer behavior but seems moreso for gamers for a variety of reasons.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a cash shop game getting subs based on that very principle, 'you can play for free', 'nothing sold is necessary' is the mantra of this payment model, at least it seems to be the sales point.

B2P games (GW1/GW2) are imo more fair to consumer and developers compared to subs or F2P

In what way? What is your bases for this. Given the very basic options from Subscription (Box and monthly set charge) - B2P (box price and mall) - F2P (free d/l and a mall, it seems odd that the one in the middle is the only fair option

In the end reality is votes are made with wallets, and only time will tell how this ends up for GW2 and ANETs business model compared to Sub models + cash shops, and F2Ps. 

 Yes, you are quite correct it's one of the reasons I think it's incredibly important to fight against this now while there's still a chance. But I hear there are currently over 63 million people playing farmville monthly who also agree with you.

Originally posted by calranthe

My issue is not with cash shops or b2p or any other model it is the very simple fact as proven by posts here that nearly every fan of GW2 is on the defensive.

Yes I know funcom, played anarchy online from beta, yes I know it had a horrible first 3 months, it turned into one of the best if not the best scifi mmo sandboxes, I spent 6 years there full time.

I did not enjoy conan but that was more my personal fantasy taste

TSW yes I know there will be items available from the store and I actually plan on buying lots of social clothing :).

My issue is every valid negative point about GW2 and anyone elses is being seen as a troll.

Funcom were completely open about there cash shop pretty much from the beginning.

 

GW2 is influenced by Ncsoft, if you look at the cash shop for aion and CoH that is the future of your game.

Unlike games like EVE you will pay for every bit of future content.

Unlike most cash shops Anet is so money hungry they commit the cardinal sin of making a cash shop item able to be traded for in game currency(this is different than plex in eve) most of the cash shops in games like funcoms etc bind the items bought to you, you can not unbalance the in game economy.

 

Long term I hope I am proved wrong, I hope that in 6 months you all prove me wrong and I will buy the game.

 

I'm sorry to derail this discussion but since apparently Funcom has been open about their cash shop, have they released any information on what those "nice to haves" will be? I tried to google it but I can't seem to find anything.