Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by elocke

In Lotro, even they had a limitation for some reason, but they worked to make a wallet so as to free up half your bag space from tokens and marks.

Don't forget that in LOTRO, you can buy just one month of "VIP" subscription and remove a lot of the limitations for only $15.

I've got a lifetime sub.  You can only have 5 bags.  It's a limitation of the their current engine, for some reason.  That's what I was getting at.  

Oh yes, I have a lifetime in LOTRO too (which is the only reason why I'm still occasionally playing). I was just pointing out an option that wasn't available in "pure" F2P games. LOTRO is an hybrid.

Originally posted by Lucioon

 

I agree with you in informing others regarding whats in the Cash Shop, but in your post you are stating that these items are Must Have, items that you can't play without!!

Which isn't true!! Let others decide if these items are required for them to play properly.

For a item to be Hidden Costs, they have to be only available to be seen once you buy the game, Anet prior to the Pre-purchase, already stated that Character Slots will be in the Cash Shop, Bank and Bag slots will also be in the Cash Shop. We the gamers just didn't know how many Bank Slots and Bag slots we start with and how many character slots we start with.  None of these items are hidden as you stated.

And Yes I finally realized that I can sell my items immediately after completing some heart quests, and it made my journey so much easier, because I didn't need to buy any more bags, and I just kept the one that I got from the very beginning. The gathering tools also dont take space, after you equip them, they are equipped and no longer in your inventory space.

Actually if you read the first few lines, you would see that I did not write the post. It was Valatar from the GW2 beta forums.

Some people may decide that they are a must have for them. However I never stated that.

Originally posted by Atlan99

Interesting post by Valatar on the Guild Wars 2 Beta Forums. He breaks down some of the hidden costs of GW2.

 

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gem/The-Gem-Store-s-Grim-Math-or-Why-GW2-may-cost-220/page/1#post115334

 

 

Valatar

Welcome to Guild Wars 2, new player! We’re the fun new game where you don’t pay a monthly fee to play! But you do realize of course that we need money to keep up our servers and update the game, so there are a few modest cash store items to help cover our costs. But it’s probably nothing that you actually need, so don’t pay any attention to it!

How do you like the classes? They’re all great fun, aren’t they? We bet you’d like to play them all! But not so fast, you only have five character slots. If you want the other three, you’ll just need to make a one-time payment in the cash shop to unlock them. It’s only 800 gems per slot, so for only 2400 gems you’ll be on your way!

What’s that, adventurer? Your bags are full? Why shucks, have we got a deal for you! You have seven bag slots, but we locked three of them so you’d have room to grow! For an insignificant 400 gems, you can unlock one bag slot on one character. Of course, if you have eight characters, that’s twenty-four slots, but hey, what’s a little 9600 gems between friends for the luxury of being able to carry things?

Oh, you wanted to actually be able to store things? Like, in a bank? Well other MMOGs make you spend nasty gold to have more than 30 bank slots, but not us! You can just buy them with gems! We’ve helped you out by making the sky the limit and locked a whopping seven bank expansions at 600 gems each, so you can feel extra accomplished when you pull out your credit card to pay for the 4200 gems for that.

tl;dr:
At the current listed rates, you have to pay 16,200 gems to have eight characters with unlocked inventory and bank slots in GW2. With the assumption that the conversion rate is $1=100 gems, that’s $162 dollars above and beyond the box cost of the game. Edit: The actual gem price is believed to be $5=400 gems, which makes the cost $202.50 for those 16200 gems. A year’s subscription to WoW is $156 if purchased in six-month blocks, making it ironically cheaper to play a year of WoW than a year of GW2.

Bear in mind that I’m ignoring vanity items, convenience items, and keys in this tally. Those are all entirely optional, and a player can take or leave those without any particular penalty. I’m focusing entirely on the one universal constant of any MMOG: storage. It’s the thing that is indisputably vital for every player, that nobody can afford to be without, and everybody absolutely requires. Anyone who doesn’t purchase bag and bank space is going to be regretting it, deeply and often. I don’t consider it optional, and doubt that anyone with any length of experience in online games would disagree with me on that.

There needs to be an alternative option to gems for purchasing in-game storage. There’s no telling what the gold value of gems will be after the game’s release, but if the beta weekend’s average around 20 silver per gem holds true, it will cost 120 gold per bank expansion and 80 gold per bag slot, which are fairly ridiculous amounts. Edit: My numbers for the silver price for gems was incorrect, see below.

Alternatively, making the bag slots an account-wide purchase rather than a per-character purchase would save the eight-character player 8400 gems, making the grand total a much more reasonable sum.

Disclaimer:
All of this hinges on beta test gem prices for cash shop items, and involves an assumption on the cash price for gems. Either of those two things may change before release. My goal in bringing this to peoples’ attention is not to incite panicked nerd rage, but to make people aware of the potential cash cost in GW2’s gem store model of business, and the fact that it may be no less expensive than other games with monthly fees.

This arguement is complete and utter bunk.   These are from anti-cash shop people that have a sole objective of finding the worse parts and being counter of it.

In-game gold can be used to purchase gems.

That small fact is what debunks the other side's arguement that these are "hiddent costs" and "required" to get things.  In fact, we already know the conversion rate based on Beta Weekend:   100 GEMS =5-7 silver, depending on the day of fluctuation.   Based on that, for example, the extra character slots would cost only 1.2-1.68 gold for a player.

Fact is that the game can be 100% Free-2-Play (after one-time purchase of the box/digital client first) without a player ever paying another dime.  However, if a player chooses to spend the money on those instead of trying to progress the game and earn it through quests and mob grind, that's the choice that A-Net provided.

Originally posted by karnivor
I just dont understand people that want everything for free and on top of that have a really bad attitude. If I like this game I will happily spend my money on it so they can keep making it better.

I don't understand this argument.  I see it all the time about this game and the cs.  I don't understand how you think people want anything "for free."  They are paying 60$ I don't see that as free.  I don't have a problem with cash shops and I actually think they have a pretty good setup with being able to buy gems with gold.  But I don't understand the argument that some are making about people wanting "everything for free" when talking about a game you have to pay 60$ for up front.

So the point is that you have to pay for luxaries.  IF you are playing five characters and can't teleport to a way point to sell your crap then u can afford the diamonds. 

Convience is luxuary.  This is the most grasp at straws argument I've seen.  8 character slots?  Teleported banking.

HEck i think remote auction should be in the gem shop.  

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by karnivor
I just dont understand people that want everything for free and on top of that have a really bad attitude. If I like this game I will happily spend my money on it so they can keep making it better.

I don't understand this argument.  I see it all the time about this game and the cs.  I don't understand how you think people want anything "for free."  They are paying 60$ I don't see that as free.  I don't have a problem with cash shops and I actually think they have a pretty good setup with being able to buy gems with gold.  But I don't understand the argument that some are making about people wanting "everything for free" when talking about a game you have to pay 60$ for up front.

And for 60 bucks you get a crap ton more than you would get in ANY OTHER AAA game.  Skyrim, Alamaur, EVERY OTHER GAME.  YOu don't get content updates, a server to forever play with your friends with events and continous maintanence. 

So it's annoying sitting here, explaining how economics 101 works for an MMO.  It makes the original author either sound super naive or super uninformed or just a freeloader who gets both but still thinks he should have the cheapest MMO experience he wants. 

It's like crying because you feel that you deserve a Mercedes Benz for the price of a Prius. 

This is funny, everyone getting so defensive over their baby. It will be more expensive. If you decide to buy keys, karma boost, exp boost, hats, pets, bank slots, bag slots, character slots...

It will be more expensive than a sub based game, for the basic things. You get all of this and MORE for 15 a month..or you pay one small 4 dollar fee, 10 times a month to buy what you end up wanting. 

If you do not purchase anything..than good for you..I will have an advantage over you in every way. 

I'm buying, Karma boosts, EXP boosts, Bag slots, Bank slots, special keys to open boxes for loot and anything else that gives me an advantage. 

Of course people, in general, will pay a lot more for GW2 than the box price, thats how the plan on making their money.

Its like when the dota clones of HoN and LoL came out, HoN was originally $30 and you got every bit of content (maps, heros, etc). LoL was free and you had to buy hero unlocks. The vast majority of my friends that chose LoL over HoN did so because it was 'free'. The vast majority of those ended up paying far more in LoL than any of the HoN players ever did. Many of them even in the 3 digit figure ranges. Another example is TF2, and many other games that go free to play. They report a relatively large increase in income after going F2P than they did when they were P2P.

I fully predict that the majority of people who play GW2 for the long-term will end up paying just as much, if not more, than they would if they had been playing a subscription based MMO for the same amount of time. This wont apply to everyone of course, but for most people i think it will. There will be additional content added to the store post-release, aswell as expansions that will come out (presumably) more regularly than they would for subscription based MMO's as they need other sources of income. The only people GW2's "B2P" payment model benefits is those that play for maybe 2-4 months. If you play for ~1 month you'd end up paying the same as a subscription based mmo due to the free month they normally give. If you play long term I think you'd end up paying the same (if not more). Its that sweet spot of people who play the game for a couple of months then quit that this will benefit and no one else, in my opinion. I really dont know why people are so excited about the payment system and praising it so much. Its one of the biggest negatives for me. Atleast with a subscription based model all players are on equal footing with regards to content and possible advantages they have in the game.

Nobody will need to buy anything, let alone extra character slots, and if you do its going to be 1 at a time.  I think the only thing you may feel forced to buy is inventory space, but you have to ask yourself, am I enjoying the game enough to support Anet to spend a little bit of cash and buy those?  I know I will.

I think the OP's post is nothing more than a scare mongering tactic, and only tells half a story.

20 slot bags are craftable, you can craft bags from mats you get in the first starter zone.

The gem prices ingame will be determined by players not Anet, everything you want can be obtained through ingame currency you can completely play GW2 without spending any real cash whatsoever. So the OP's post is a mute point as far as i'm concerned.

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by karnivor
I just dont understand people that want everything for free and on top of that have a really bad attitude. If I like this game I will happily spend my money on it so they can keep making it better.

I don't understand this argument.  I see it all the time about this game and the cs.  I don't understand how you think people want anything "for free."  They are paying 60$ I don't see that as free.  I don't have a problem with cash shops and I actually think they have a pretty good setup with being able to buy gems with gold.  But I don't understand the argument that some are making about people wanting "everything for free" when talking about a game you have to pay 60$ for up front.

And for 60 bucks you get a crap ton more than you would get in ANY OTHER AAA game.  Skyrim, Alamaur, EVERY OTHER GAME.  YOu don't get content updates, a server to forever play with your friends with events and continous maintanence. 

So it's annoying sitting here, explaining how economics 101 works for an MMO.  It makes the original author either sound super naive or super uninformed or just a freeloader who gets both but still thinks he should have the cheapest MMO experience he wants. 

It's like crying because you feel that you deserve a Mercedes Benz for the price of a Prius. 

Wrong.  You're getting about the same amount as many free-to-play games give you, except with a $60+ price tag for the client that ANet is charging for.

That's the thing.  Buy-to-play is just semantics to make the model sound better than it is - in reality, GW2 is a F2P game with a cash shop that also charges for the client.

Originally posted by Zylaxx
It costs $42.00 to buy all bag slots and bank slots.  Thats pretty much all I'll ever buy on the cash shop except for the occasional item to help fund Anet's amazing game.  In 6+ years I spent at least $1080.00 on Subscription fees alone!  SO no I do not think GW2 will cost more me more then a sub based game I KNOW IT WONT!

This is correct because one you buy the bag slots you will never need to buy them again. You can play for years without ever buying anything from the GW2 store. In the long run it is still a ton cheaper than 1 year of a sub fee.

Originally posted by davestr1zl

Of course people, in general, will pay a lot more for GW2 than the box price, thats how the plan on making their money.

Its like when the dota clones of HoN and LoL came out, HoN was originally $30 and you got every bit of content (maps, heros, etc). LoL was free and you had to buy hero unlocks. The vast majority of my friends that chose LoL over HoN did so because it was 'free'. The vast majority of those ended up paying far more in LoL than any of the HoN players ever did. Many of them even in the 3 digit figure ranges. Another example is TF2, and many other games that go free to play. They report a relatively large increase in income after going F2P than they did when they were P2P.

I fully predict that the majority of people who play GW2 for the long-term will end up paying just as much, if not more, than they would if they had been playing a subscription based MMO for the same amount of time. This wont apply to everyone of course, but for most people i think it will. There will be additional content added to the store post-release, aswell as expansions that will come out (presumably) more regularly than they would for subscription based MMO's as they need other sources of income. The only people GW2's "B2P" payment model benefits is those that play for maybe 2-4 months. If you play for ~1 month you'd end up paying the same as a subscription based mmo due to the free month they normally give. If you play long term I think you'd end up paying the same (if not more). Its that sweet spot of people who play the game for a couple of months then quit that this will benefit and no one else, in my opinion. I really dont know why people are so excited about the payment system and praising it so much. Its one of the biggest negatives for me. Atleast with a subscription based model all players are on equal footing with regards to content and possible advantages they have in the game.

How do you figure that? I played the original GW, which also had a similar cash shop and I paid  - in 7 yrs mind you - maybe 50 US dollars to the cash shop and for the 3 extra chapters - (maybe 135 US dollars). Is that less than whay you pay for a P2P game - yes it is. Figure it this way - 185 + 45 for the original game divided by 7 yrs - that is 32 dollars a year. That is WAY less than P2P.

Based I what I just posted - your prediction is WRONG. Please go back to playing your WoW or whatever P2P game you are playing.

I

Originally posted by Nethriil
Yepp expensive 4 sure. But dont they need to Get paid???
There Are no free rides

Haha, this post got me thinking. It seemed like only yesterday people were bashing Blizzard for selling PETS in their shop, and for only donating SOME of the money to charities on certain pets and this and that. 

Now it is all love for Arenanet... 

Rose-tinted glasses are friggen SWEET!

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Originally posted by NBlitz

Can't I buy gems with in-game gold? 

That'd make this whole discussion at this point in time trivial.

Ya, you can. Atleast you could in the beta weekend, so I assume its there to stay.

Yep, and this is what is convienently always left out by the cash shop scare mongers when they talk about it.

Everything in GW2 is realistically and reasonably obtainable by simply playing the game.

This campaign to demonise the cash shop in this particular game is dishonest, to say the least. If people hate cash shops in general, and I get that, then they need to be talking in much wider terms then just GW2, but I guess that wouldn't serve to further their campaign against the title specifically.

I wonder how many people will be like me....

When it comes to my enjoyment of MMO titles money is not something I worry about. If I see a bunch of bank slots, keys, cosmetic armor/weapons, dyes, etc in their cash shop and I want them. I will drop 200 dollars without flinching. This is a game I can see myself playing for a long time. 

I already paid for this and D3 digital download and i'll buy expansions for these games but not too interested in cash shops unless its something i really want lol.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP TROLLING GOOD GAMES BECAUSE YOU FRIGGIN HATE SO MUCH ITS NOT WOW OR COD...that is all :-)

Yep, to people who have to have everything RIGHT NOW AND I MEAN NOW. The game will cost money.

For everyone else, they wont actually have to spend a single penny. You can get gems with in game gold and thus every single thing the OP is complaining about can be gotten FOR FREE.

So, the only people who are going to be paying money in this game are the people who are actually doing the most complaining about how cash shop = pay 2 win...they will be the ones doing it the most...because they are the ones that want it all RIGHT NOW.

You are a dieing breed, the old ways are just that..old. I have been playing MMORPGs for a decaded and a half, its about time a major company left the old model that NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE behind.

The very idea of buying a game and having to keep paying to play it was a slap in the face to consumers.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by davestr1zl

Of course people, in general, will pay a lot more for GW2 than the box price, thats how the plan on making their money.

Its like when the dota clones of HoN and LoL came out, HoN was originally $30 and you got every bit of content (maps, heros, etc). LoL was free and you had to buy hero unlocks. The vast majority of my friends that chose LoL over HoN did so because it was 'free'. The vast majority of those ended up paying far more in LoL than any of the HoN players ever did. Many of them even in the 3 digit figure ranges. Another example is TF2, and many other games that go free to play. They report a relatively large increase in income after going F2P than they did when they were P2P.

I fully predict that the majority of people who play GW2 for the long-term will end up paying just as much, if not more, than they would if they had been playing a subscription based MMO for the same amount of time. This wont apply to everyone of course, but for most people i think it will. There will be additional content added to the store post-release, aswell as expansions that will come out (presumably) more regularly than they would for subscription based MMO's as they need other sources of income. The only people GW2's "B2P" payment model benefits is those that play for maybe 2-4 months. If you play for ~1 month you'd end up paying the same as a subscription based mmo due to the free month they normally give. If you play long term I think you'd end up paying the same (if not more). Its that sweet spot of people who play the game for a couple of months then quit that this will benefit and no one else, in my opinion. I really dont know why people are so excited about the payment system and praising it so much. Its one of the biggest negatives for me. Atleast with a subscription based model all players are on equal footing with regards to content and possible advantages they have in the game.

How do you figure that? I played the original GW, which also had a similar cash shop and I paid  - in 7 yrs mind you - maybe 50 US dollars to the cash shop and for the 3 extra chapters - (maybe 135 US dollars). Is that less than whay you pay for a P2P game - yes it is. Figure it this way - 185 + 45 for the original game divided by 7 yrs - that is 32 dollars a year. That is WAY less than P2P.

Based I what I just posted - your prediction is WRONG. Please go back to playing your WoW or whatever P2P game you are playing.

My prediction is that the majority of people will (who play it long term), not all people. You dont need to get so damn defensive. My prediction isnt WRONG (nor is it right), at this point its nothing more than a prediction, although it is backed up by some evidence (of which there are obvious exceptions to, such as your example). I can gaurantee some people will pay far less in GW2 than they would in a subscription-based MMO, i think thats something we can both agree on, but I believe there will be many more that pay an equivalent amount (if not more) if they play the game long-term.