---

Originally posted by DarkPony
The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

---

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by imjonah
 

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .
2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

etc.

Don't forget the overflow server thingy ... if there's one killer to world pvp in a can it is not being able to join your guildies in a siege.

Critical but good thread. Hope this won't be locked.

The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

Do a little bit more effort to stick to substance rather than lashing out guys V_V

Anet promised a fix for the overflow server issue before launch.

No one can refute the OP's points, not because they have validity, but because they are opinion.  You happen to agree with the OP, so you view his opinions as valid.  They are for you and he, but not for everyone.  Anyway...

1. My experience was that PvE was significantly better than any other MMO I've played, to the point where after one weekend I have no desire to play other MMO's.  This is a purely subjective respone on both the OP's and my part.

2. While the success of WvWvW will be important to GW2, I don't believe the game will fail if it is no better implemented than it was during this first large beta test -- and the odds are it will get better both before and after launch, since every MMO company patches their games in an ongoing process.

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

  

Really ??

I see a HUGE improvement!!

All other MMOs take you from quest hub to the next one,,,

Guild Wars 2 makes you move freely around the world and adventure comes to you!

Makes you think: "Let´s see what´s going on today in Tyria....!" You go out...and game starts...no quest hubs...no NPCS standing with a qustion mark....just a full live breathing world full of dinamic adventures!

I do belive it is a trully "different take" made by Anet, and it rocks!

Op should have made the title: Why the odds are heavily stacked against Guild Wars 2 WvW success

The OP's opinion on PvE goes directly against mine, the weekend proved to me that non static quest delivery is a far superior way to provide content, a lot of people agree on that.

The points of concern are valid for WvW - it's easy to see it becoming a zerg fest, how that plays out as time goes by is anyones guess? How much of an impact will server pride have in getting people to organise more strategic plans of attack and defense? Will leader boards get people thinking about how to best improve their performance? What can Anet do with feedback and gathering metrics from weekends like this to quell the zerg and encourage strategic PvP?

The title of the thread went against the OP's favour even though the concerns for WvW are totally valid. I think that got up peoples noses. You know what us forum posters are like - rage at perceived attitude rather than content :)

Originally posted by Saxx0n

The odds are heavily stacked that this is another troll post fantasy thread with no facts or knowledge to back it up.

 

The only thing you have going for you op is the fact that you can spell "skeptical" correctly because this eludes 99% of the people on this forum.

Wait .... there's a K in Sceptical?

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

I disagree with this.  I found PvE to be very fun in GW2, more fun than it was in other recent MMO's.  Here are my reasons for this:

1.  No "golden exclamation point" syndrome.  This just KILLS exploration in a game because you are PUNISHED for not getting a quest before exploring.  For example, if I randomly stumble upon a camp of gnolls and kill them, and then receive a quest to kill the gnolls later...I will get no credit for my previous slaughter.  THIS is what makes games feel linear, and it is blessedly absent from GW2.  In GW2, you can literally just wander around and do things and get credit for it.  The game world feels so much more open because of this.

2.  Downward level scaling.  In GW2, you are always scaled down to a level appropriate for the area you are in.  This may sound dumb, but I think it's amazing.  In other MMORPGs leveling up means that you pretty much can't do "lower level" content anymore, and I hate this, it's like leveling up blocks content off from you.  Not so in GW2 though!  As you get higher level MORE of the world is always open for you to play in.  Love that level 10 event so much you want to do it again at level 40?  Go for it!

3.  Dynamic events.  I thought these were really fun.  You're just minding your own business feeding some cows and WHAM!  Bandits!  All of a sudden player start scrambling to protect the farm, rez each other, and put out fires.

4.  Everyone gets credit for kills.  I can't tell you how many times I've groaned when I see another player approach in an MMORPG because I know he's going to take "my" mobs.  I never worried about this once in GW2...whenever I saw another player, I thought, "sweet!  Someone to help!"

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

This is your completely subjective opinion.  Why do you think WvW will be the end all be all of GW2?  Are you just ignoring structured PvP, PvE, dungeons, crafting, exploration, alts, ...the list goes on.

As for your concerns regarding WvW:

1.  Zerg tactics - Yeah, this is basically true, open world battles typically come down to numbers, though siege engines can even the odds.  But honestly, this is an MMORPG...numbers SHOULD matter.  Also, you have the third faction in the mix that can mess up a zerging faction.

2.  Class imbalance - ANet did GW1 and classes are fairly balanced in that.  That said though, sure there will be some class imbalance, but I don't think it will ruin the game...it hasn't in other MMORPGs.

3.  Melee/range imbalance - Every class can use range.  If you insist on being melee while you are defending a besieged keep, then that is stupid.  Use your rifle or bow.

4. Faction population imbalance - There are no factions.  It's server vs. server and there's a matchmaking system that matches you with a server that has a similar W/L ratio.  I don't think this will be a problem.

5. Server lag - Really?  I would hope that lag would be a minor concern when the game is ready for release.  And this is something that is UNIVERSAL to MMORPGs.

6.  Exploits - Really?  Universal to MMORPGs once again.

7. Time zone fluctuations - Hopefully they will only pit servers in similar time zones against one another.

8. Players farming and not helping their factions - This all has to do with the reward design.  Right now, you are rewarded for successfully defending and successfully attacking keeps...I see no reason to farm here.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

 No

Originally posted by Redemp

Originally posted by Saxx0n

The odds are heavily stacked that this is another troll post fantasy thread with no facts or knowledge to back it up.

 

The only thing you have going for you op is the fact that you can spell "skeptical" correctly because this eludes 99% of the people on this forum.

Wait .... there's a K in Sceptical?

 I remain sceptical of this...

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Redemp

Originally posted by Saxx0n

The odds are heavily stacked that this is another troll post fantasy thread with no facts or knowledge to back it up.

 

The only thing you have going for you op is the fact that you can spell "skeptical" correctly because this eludes 99% of the people on this forum.

Wait .... there's a K in Sceptical?

 I remain sceptical of this...

*giggle*

Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by DarkPony
The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

---

Well, the TC did a very good job at finding a misleading title for this thread. ;) If the title was "my BWE experience" replies would be different. The TC doesn't like mass PvP in MMOs, all right. As regrettable as it is is, it doesn't mean mass PvP in MMOs sucks for everybody.

 

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Don't forget the overflow server thingy ... if there's one killer to world pvp in a can it is not being able to join your guildies in a siege.

Critical but good thread. Hope this won't be locked.

The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

Do a little bit more effort to stick to substance rather than lashing out guys V_V

Most of his post are personal opinions based on limited exposure to the game. Going by the first part alone, it is obvious that the OP has not really explored the PvE side of the game in depth. I'd say he either watched a few youtube videos or possibly played the game to level 5, did a few starter hearts and events and assumed that the whole PvE game is like this. It is not. There is a lot more depth do it and when you actually realize it, you'll see just how different the PvE side of the game is.

Just the simple fact that the game revolves around exploration instead traveling from quest hub to quest hub is enough to set it appart from the other MMOs.

As far as the rest of that post... zerg tactics? In mass PvP? Especially when people just started playing? You don't freaking say... I am shocked.

Faction imbalance? There are no factions in GW2, something the OP would have known, had he actually played the game.

Server population imbalance due to time zones doesn't matter as servers get paired up with servers from their time zone. Either way, due to the length of WvWvW conflicts and how the wins are determined, it doesn't really matter if one night a certain server is able to field more players.

Wait, what does "only playing to level 5" have to do with it?  I thought the whole game was "end game" and some positivists claim to have done more in a couple levels than in many levels in other mmos.  Is it not deep at the beginning?  More depth later implies the beginning of the game is shallow and basic.  That doesn't jive with the claims about it being a deep complex world from momemnt one.  You can't have it both ways, which is it?

So he only watched some livestreams and youtube videos according to you, but many many people have told us that's all we need to see in order to make an informed decision.  All the facts are laid out before us to see.  Is that not true?  Is that just a bunch of bullshit?  Again, you can't have it both ways.

So a game that is being touted as revolutionary, a sub-killer, an evolution of pve and pvp, but has the standard zerg trap is okay because zergs happen.  Servers *are* the factions and we'll see how well the pairing works.  It obviously didn't work for everyone on the paid preview weekend.

Just admit it's a game that spins your wheels and is exactly what you're looking for but isn't going to be the "revolution" everyone is looking for and that perspective isn't from a lack of understanding, but from game play preferences.  This game is better for you, but not for everyone.

Originally posted by Eliandal
  While we're all entitled to our own opinion, I'll jusy say that I don't agree with yours (OP)

This...

And i have been on both sides of the zerg tactic in this game and let me tell you our server relentlessly wiped out huge zergs of 50 or more players with little more than 15 players defending on our side, its all about tactics and zerging does not assure a successful attack in this game, it is awesome to behold an entire zerging horde dying at the hands of a few..

Originally posted by Volkon
So many words, so little facts.

Welcome to the MMORPG forums.

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

PVE and there take on questing is significantly better, read the reviews from actual players and reviewers alike and you will see this is a common agreement. Many after playing GW2 are having trouble going back to games as bland as WOW, AoC, War, Aion, etc. While it may be your opinion that PVE isn't significantly better do note that an opinion is all it is and many would disagree with that opinion.

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

This is simply another great aspect, the PvE is better in my and many others opinion and the WvWvW PvP is another area where the game shines. Your opinion my vary, but as I stated before this is simply your opinion and one many disagree with. The WvWvW has given many players long awaited features, mechanics and fun. 3 faction large scale PvP with siege weapons and the need for both Zerg and strategy. It has managed to blow PvP in other MMO's away by a large margain. As a full loot FFA PvP fan for many many years I actually prefer GW2 PvP over all others for more reasons than I can possibly list. Again your opinion seems to differ from mine, but it is nothing more than an opinion and one again it seems many disagree with.

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

GW2 hasn't actually improved on the EQ model, it went into a different direction all together and one many felt the genre should have went in to begin with. While you may not like it the game has seem to reasonate well with MMO gamers of a large variety. You have PvP fans, PvE fans, WoW fans, UO and DFO fans, it's hit on many areas gamers have complained about constantly for many years. 

You are definitely entitled to your opinion but please keep in mind that it is only an opinion. The odds are definitely not stacked against GW2's success based off of the hype before the first BWE and they certainly aren't after the increased interest that came AFTER the BWE.

GW2 is on the road to success. Now that doesn't mean it's the "WoW killer" or anything like that, it simply means the game will sale and it will sale well. Wether or not it will break any records isn't something I'm willing to try and predict simply because I don't care. All I know is I wish I were playing the game right now even in it's beta state lol.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Don't forget the overflow server thingy ... if there's one killer to world pvp in a can it is not being able to join your guildies in a siege.

Critical but good thread. Hope this won't be locked.

The replies are doing a very bad job at addressing the OP's concerns because a lot of it is either valid or not disproven at this time (as far as I can tell).

Do a little bit more effort to stick to substance rather than lashing out guys V_V

Most of his post are personal opinions based on limited exposure to the game. Going by the first part alone, it is obvious that the OP has not really explored the PvE side of the game in depth. I'd say he either watched a few youtube videos or possibly played the game to level 5, did a few starter hearts and events and assumed that the whole PvE game is like this. It is not. There is a lot more depth do it and when you actually realize it, you'll see just how different the PvE side of the game is.

Just the simple fact that the game revolves around exploration instead traveling from quest hub to quest hub is enough to set it appart from the other MMOs.

As far as the rest of that post... zerg tactics? In mass PvP? Especially when people just started playing? You don't freaking say... I am shocked.

Faction imbalance? There are no factions in GW2, something the OP would have known, had he actually played the game.

Server population imbalance due to time zones doesn't matter as servers get paired up with servers from their time zone. Either way, due to the length of WvWvW conflicts and how the wins are determined, it doesn't really matter if one night a certain server is able to field more players.

Wait, what does "only playing to level 5" have to do with it?  I thought the whole game was "end game" and some positivists claim to have done more in a couple levels than in many levels in other mmos.  Is it not deep at the beginning?  More depth later implies the beginning of the game is shallow and basic.  That doesn't jive with the claims about it being a deep complex world from momemnt one.  You can't have it both ways, which is it?

So he only watched some livestreams and youtube videos according to you, but many many people have told us that's all we need to see in order to make an informed decision.  All the facts are laid out before us to see.  Is that not true?  Is that just a bunch of bullshit?  Again, you can't have it both ways.

So a game that is being touted as revolutionary, a sub-killer, an evolution of pve and pvp, but has the standard zerg trap is okay because zergs happen.  Servers *are* the factions and we'll see how well the pairing works.  It obviously didn't work for everyone on the paid preview weekend.

Just admit it's a game that spins your wheels and is exactly what you're looking for but isn't going to be the "revolution" everyone is looking for and that perspective isn't from a lack of understanding, but from game play preferences.  This game is better for you, but not for everyone.

Do you expect gameplay depth in tutorial areas?

Zergs happen because when you're dealing with a large group of people, zergs will always happen. Especially when the people have less than 1 day gameplay experience.

The game is revolutionary compared to the rest of the WoW clones. Problem?

Edit: btw, I will be the first one to say that GW2 will not make all gamers happy. It's a good game but no game is going to please everyone.

Originally posted by imjonah

1. PVE is not significantly better  (or worse)  than other MMORPGs .

I leveled characters to max level in WOW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion,  Lord of the Rings and Star Wars the Old Republic, each were fun each had their  pluses and minuses

   If  Guild Wars 2 is superior to the above games, it is  only slightly so.  Nothing on the PVE side is earth shattering or a significant improvement for the genre.

2. Guild Wars 2 will rise or fall on its W v W v W  an this is the problem. 

No one so far has succeeded at this and  nothing I saw this weekend  was sufficiently unique/creative/ innovative  to indicate they have resolved the problems that have plagued every other MMORPG's attempts in the past. 

    Zerg tactics dominating, class imbalance, melee ranged imbalance,  faction population imbalance, server lag, exploits,  server population fluctuations depending on players time zones, player farming rewards and not helping their faction, etc.

     I am sure there will be tweaks, fine tuning, nerfs and other adjustments; obviously,  the future will tell if the developers can  find the magic formula.   I would love to be proven wrong but I am skeptical.

   With history as our guide;  there  is no good reason to believe, looking at what they have come up with so far,  that the GW2 developers will be able to solve the riddle, no other MMORPG developers have solved.

I personally believe it will take an order of magnitude greater innovative/ 'thinking outside the box" / radical departure from the norm for any  PvP / W v W  system  to work long term.

I wish the GW2 development team the best of luck, I just don't see any evidence that they are any more up to the task than all the development teams that failed in the past.

_______________________________________

   As a bit of further evidence for the above thesis.  Despite literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent, there has not been a significant improvement of the basic  model  established by Everquest.  

  

Have fun killing 10 rats in whatever mmorpg you play.  Truth is, GW2 will kill all other mmorpg's except for WoW and EVE.  WoW covers the WoW clone style of game, GW2 covers the people who don't like WoW and EVE covers the sandbox crowd.   SWTOR will actually kill itself by sucking.   I don't have any facts to support  my claim, but neither does the OP.

Originally posted by Volkon
So many words, so little facts.

Could not disagree with the OP more, although I'd like to.

PVE IS significantly better than other MMORPGs, especially all the ones you listed (except maybe Warhammer since I never played it and so can't say).

Don't give a rat's ass about PvP, never have and never will, and I'm not alone. There is a reason full time PvP games on a PC either fill a little niche or fail outright.

Most of the things you complain about for WvWvW will smooth out as people elarn what they're doing. Seriously, it was a 60 hour beta, why aren't you slackers 100% focused on toons you can't keep yet for a group you may never see again? (snark) Besides, WvWvW is meant to be casual. Save the bossy pushy stuff for the competitive PvP.

The whole "solve the riddle" thing made me laugh. What riddle would that be exactly? How to please all the people all the time? 'Cause that one ain't happening. The riddle about how to create something completely new while using the same finite inputs and outputs that everyone else gets to use too and still be accessible to people? I think you're trying too hard to sound clever and deep.

GW2 will do fine, it will get big enough to make a profit while hopefully avoiding becoming a bloated beast.