Originally posted by Fadedbomb

I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?

Logic, apply the same LOGIC being used to EVERYTHING.

In WoW, I can BUY a mount for real life money and sell it IN GAME FOR GOLD. I just paid to WIN according to the OP.

There hasnt been a sub game ever created that didnt have gold spammers that I could pay real life money to, in order to P2W...can I now call ALL games P2W?

The argument being used is that if I use real life money to get an XP boost, I am somehow WINNING the game...by getting to end game faster than those who will get there a DAY LATER and be the SAME POWER.

Oh noes, someone paid $5 to get to max level in 2 days. I am so LOSING the game by taking 3 days to get there without spending money!

BTW, I pointed out how you are wrong by not being able to do that in sub games. You chose to log out in a city/cantina to get an XP bonus and someone else doesnt...you just got an advantage over him.

BTW, real weak use of the word advantage...you have no power over another player by having an XP boost...damage boost, yes...XP boost, no.

All I have to say is this:

Anyone who DOES NOT have a problem with this, shall never speak of gold buying again. 

I mean in WoW, what is the diffrence from buying 300,000g on ebay and this gem thing?

Hmmmm???

People on this site are always against gold sellers....unless its their gaming god GW2, who'm shall not be able to commit sin!...now bow down.

C'mon people why are your replying to this? Let the thread sink out of the front page and forget about it.

I give you 6 / 10 OP. People here are just too easy.

If you think its P2W it really is. For you... Everyone must decide if they think advantage items are P2W or not.  My point is: Its very difficult to find two individuals that can agree if some CS item is P2W or not. There is no definition.

Its like trying to decide if meat tastes better than fish. Or if heavy metal is better than pop.

Of course people should understand and respect that. Some other persons P2W nightmare could be no problem at all for you. And you perhaps cant understand why he/she is complaining. But people are different. Some believe in principles that others think are silly. Its all very subjective.

Something to note: The average player can level one level every one and a half hours, I did not do any story quest during this beta and played for 32 hours before hitting 32, I did not use any boosts of any kind.

During this beta I managed to reach level 34 during the final hour, as well as Glory rank 1(1500, which isn't a whole lot), and 80 in tailoring.

If you feel that this game requires to much time to accomplish anything, then maybe you need to reevaluate your general efficiency. Just too see if it was possible we even had someone level to 32 with crafting alone.

EVEN MORE NOTES: Crafting does not reset your level if you choose to switch craft, for example if you switch from 80 tailoring to cooking or weaponsmithing, you will still retain your 80 tailoring should you choose to work on it at a later time. The only downside to this is the cost of switching costs more and more as your crafting level increases.

I understand where people are coming from, to put it simply, the game is not so much pay to win, as it is Pay to Help Me Not Suck At Economics. No amount of gold will ever keep you alive on the battlefield.

Originally posted by Dewm

All I have to say is this:

 

Anyone who DOES NOT have a problem with this, shall never speak of gold buying again. 

 

I mean in WoW, what is the diffrence from buying 300,000g on ebay and this gem thing?

 

Hmmmm???

 

People on this site are always against gold sellers....unless its their gaming god GW2, who'm shall not be able to commit sin!...now bow down.

Most people actually just hate the in-game spam from those buyers / sellers. GW2 gets rid of that by putting it into an automated marketplace.

The best appearance gear in GW2 will be drops from hard dungeons. You will not be able to purchase these with gold as you have to be there on opening the chest.

What will gold buy you? Some crafted gear?

Pay to win arguement is stupid. Its the least P2W game out there according to the P2W crowds logic. Since all other games put far more value in gold / in game currencies.

Guild Wars 2 average reaction to beta, cash shop, plush Charr, novels...

In reverse order.

Gems for Gold:

End-all be-all pfft, whatever. This is the same as EVE Plex and it is simply trading time for money. If you have cash you buy gems, if you have time you farm gold. Those people get together and then trade. Instead of me spending time to get gold I simply "hire" a kid to get it for me. Not significantly different than hiring a kid to mow my lawn. I save time, he gets spending money. Especially when I can pay that kid $12 an hour to mow and I can bill $145 an hour for database consulting services. The other upside is that this provides a relatively fair, free market way to allow people with no cash to still have a way to access the goodies in the cash shop thus making it less of a hard pay to win barrier.

Exp Boosts:

All this does is shift the time frame on when I person reaches level cap. You don't win by getting to level cap first. You win by doing well once you get there. When you get there is immaterial.

Keys

This is the only one that even slightly concerns me. Yes the keys drop but how often do they drop? If they are super rare this could be a problem. I don't think they are that rare though. I got one by lvl 10 and it will probably pick up as levels go up. Further, people can buy them with in game gold by first using the gold for gems feature and then going to the cash shop. My only suggestion would be to make the keys also available from a vendor in game. gold or karma or both, doesn't matter. That would solve the problem completely. Even so, not a big deal.

Dear TC, I'd like to thank you for sharing your concerns. The Guild Wars cash shop contents is a very original topic that had been completely overlooked by everyone until you decided to open our eyes. Rest assured that your arguments have nothing in common with those old beaten to death hater excuses we've heard a thousand times and a thousand times again. There's a lot of food for thought in your well-penned OP. It feels incredibly exciting to participate in this discussion. Thank you again, TC, keep up the good work!

/facepalm

Originally posted by wowfan1996

Dear TC, I'd like to thank you for sharing your thoughts on this original subject that had been completely overlooked by everyone until you decided to open our eyes. Rest assured that your arguments have nothing in common with those old beaten to death hater excuses we've heard a thousand times and a thousand times again. There's a lot of food for thought in your well-penned OP. It feels incredibly exciting to participate in this discussion. Thank you again, TC, keep up the good work!

/facepalm

While everyone on the other side of the debate makes the same tired arguments we've heard a thousand times. Until there is a literal "I Win Button" you can purchase in the item shop, people will deny P2W.

In the end both sides are right, because whether or not it is P2W depends on your point of view.

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Originally posted by Atlan99
While everyone on the other side of the debate makes the same tired arguments we've heard a thousand times. Until there is a literal "I Win Button" you can purchase in the item shop, people will deny P2W.

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Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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Originally posted by Atlan99
While everyone on the other side of the debate makes the same tired arguments we've heard a thousand times. Until there is a literal "I Win Button" you can purchase in the item shop, people will deny P2W.

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Truth to be told, I'm just as suspicious about cash shops and RMT in games as any other sensible person next to me. But selling in-game currency doesn't mean pay2win. You can buy in-game currency for any major sub-based MMO out there. I had a friend who did it in WoW. I had a friend who did it in Rift (quite ironically, this time it was just days before I quit so he'd be better off just asking me for I had a lot of plat). If we want to have a serious discussion here we need to face the facts. Well here's a fact: buying in-game currency is nothing new.

 

I'm aware of that.

Darkfall exposed me to the extent of this. It was huge advantage to buy gold and was an enormous benefit to anybody that did. It is probably the closest I have seen to P2W in a video game.

Overall the P2W term is probably overdone. There will never be a literal "I Win Button" you can purchase.(At least I would hope)  It's more of  a Pay for an Advantage over those that don't.

However as you have pointed out, this has always been around and is nothing new.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

 

The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

-Keys [edit]

-Apparently keys drop in-game according to posters below, editing this out :P!

 

-XP Boosts,

-Apparently XP drops in-game

 

 

-Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold.

-Apparently Gold drops in-game

 

/end rant :(

Like poking the hornet's nest much?

I'm curious. If something is available in game and is also available from the cash shop, does that mean you HAVE to buy it from the cash shop?

If someone wants to rush through the game, how does that benefit them in any competative way?

Is there a free 'sword of forgotten truth's' for the first person to 80?

Would it perhaps benefit a casual or working player who can't spend 4 hours a night levelling to keep up with friends?

I seriously fail to see any competative advantage to gaining additional XP.

Gold drops in game. It drops is all Fantasy RPG's. It's so damn common you can even mine it in a few.

Like most MMO activities making gold has an attached time requirement, a player who can only pay a few hours a week isn't going to want to spend that time farming, he wants to have fun. So Joe Blogs (who works damn hard for a living) decides he wants to 'buy' some in game currency so he can just get on with the fun part. I think it's a good idea to let A.Net provide a means to get gold than perhaps relying on gold farmers (who incase you've never noticed, SPAM A HELL OF A LOT! )

If key's didn't drop in game I would have had to agree with your assesment. The fact that you pointed out yourself that something dropping in game means a cash shop item isn't a P2W item destroys the rest of your nonesense post.

An almost convincing attempt to inflame one of the Trolls 5 a day topics.

You're not going to be able to just convert gems into gold come live, you are actually going to have to sell them to a player.  I think that is fair, because it allows players to get gems at good deals for their gold, then you never have to spend a dime in the cash shop. 

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

 

-Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

 

i really dont understand why people care so much about others being richer or poorer than you in game. No matter how rich you are in game, the cash shop wont sell you gear with stats that you can buy and beat everyone else. There is not an NPC selling overpowered gear to the richest player either. You can have millions of in game gold and being low level, you wont find overpowered gear close to your level to spend all your money into. So again is not pay to win.

I am one of the worst money makers in any game, and i always make my money as i level up and do quests and gather some crafting stuff and sell in auction house. Do i even care if everyone else has 100 times more gold than me? no, because im not wasting my money i only buy what i need, and if i trade 10k gems for in game gold i am going to waste all that money in crap because thats whats there.

Jeez, now even in game gold is pay to win these days...

So if you can find the items outside the cash shop,; it's not pay to win?

Why are you morons so dense?? If someone can get the items with real money; that alone is pay2win. He didn't have to kill monsters or w/e to find the rare chest. All he did was put in his credit/debit card numbers and that's it.

To support this in any way or form is beyond asinine. You people are the reason the gaming industry has becomine so appalling. DLC and cash shops in ALL our games.

The achievments and trophies have replaced our rewards, and our rewards have become "extra content" that we must pay for. Keep oiling up the machine you mindless sheep.

Originally posted by Rivalen

Let's list the hate hivemind by days:

- Friday : Worst release of all time

(in a beta weekend!)

- Saturday: The game runs poorly, it's too hard and it's a wow clone

(game runs preety well, it's chalenging and it's non a trinity game)

- Sunday: OMG it's Warhammer!

(It's nothing like War except that some people somehow like to smack on doors with arrows instead of with cannonballs)

- Monday: Pay2Win!!!!

(Nothing in beta was pay to win, it might change though)

 

Oh haters, why can't you diversify a bit.

 

Ahahahahaha...this was great and so true!