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Economics  » My new economics concept [EDIT: 09/29/11 presentation re-done]

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45 posts found
  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/26/09 1:08:56 PM#21

 Holy crap, I responded with a good long post and the page timed out and I lost it.  I'll come back later and do it again...Baaahhhh

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  arieschild

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/09
Posts: 65

"Shoot the rider not the Horse, a dead horse is cover and a scared horse is a whole lot of panic."

10/27/09 4:17:14 PM#22

Yea, I hate that. That is why I try not to write epic and TLDR posts.

Back to the nature of the thread; Lets take the simplest Economy of any  any game, a basic Faucet and Drain system. What keeps the Dev. from making the Faucet a little harder to get to and even then it is only a trickle, while at the same time lets close off the drains and allow banks, NPCs, and other mechanics to temporarily suspend funds in a player controlled market? 

This is a very small look at my own Economics systems. It is no where near completed yet and when it is I will be posting it so that every one can tear it apart and punch holes in it.

If you build it, let others tear it apart so you can make it better.

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/28/09 9:54:30 AM#23

 I gave a lot of thought to how to make the system self sustainable.  Early on I wasn't sure how my system, a dynamic system, was going to adjust to player habit, population and changes in price levels (inflation or deflation).

The answer was simple, fluxuate buying power.  This approch allowed my to touch every person involved in the economy, but more importantly it can make the economy sustainable over a long period of time.  The question, of course, is how to determine what changes in economic conditions justify a change in buying power?  The answer to that question can only be answered once (and if) this system is ever adapted into a game.  Then testing will have to show if the theory is correct.

Having said that, my solution is to use a price level formula to determine the overall price level in the game.  the The Quantity Theory of Money or Price= Velocity x Money/ Quantity (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantity_theory_of_money.  With this equation we can mane decisions (though testing) when the price level should be adjusted and have it happen automatically, predictably.  

Money facilitates trade and any trade that happens where agents of the game are involved money will be required, but thats not to say players cannot trade among themselves.

The goal from the begining hasen't been to make a "better" system, that's impossible due to the subjective nature of the term.  My goal was to create a more competitive concept, but one that didn't just focus on the competitive nature of combat.

I want the system to be intuitive as well.  I think it's important that players know, very quickly, what they need to do in order to succeed.  I don't belive that from the player level this concept is difficult at all. 

PvE'ers collect raw materials from NPC's (like any other game).  Those materials are used in the creation of virtually anything that can be made in the game.

PvP'ers engage in combat to reach game wide goals.  Things like expanding territory, capturing ports or any activity that can be accomplished though combat.  

While this is happening players will gain or loose the one raw material that is not gained though PvE, EMB.

EMB can be used to create items or traded for money.

For the first time the reward for succeeding in battle is not arbitrary, it is based on the power of your opponent modified by character power.

In regards to your comments on bartering.  IMO if bartering is a major component of trade it's because the money system failed.  bartering is not a system that most players perfer.  if developers create systems that enhance bartering, why not just use that time to create a sustanable system of money?  It goes back to predictability.  I think that money is a lot more predicable and intuitive, then a system of bartering. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence_of_wants

 

Cheers

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  arieschild

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/09
Posts: 65

"Shoot the rider not the Horse, a dead horse is cover and a scared horse is a whole lot of panic."

10/28/09 5:52:31 PM#24
Originally posted by Talinguard

In regards to your comments on bartering.  IMO if bartering is a major component of trade it's because the money system failed.  bartering is not a system that most players perfer.  if developers create systems that enhance bartering, why not just use that time to create a sustanable system of money?  It goes back to predictability.  I think that money is a lot more predicable and intuitive, then a system of bartering. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence_of_wants

 

Cheers

 

Alright, I will honestly have to disagree with you on this point. Players are human and from the time we are children we have always traded, Lunches, Toys, etc. This is a part of human nature that carries over to the gaming world weather any dev. wants to admit it or not. I can both argue your point and prove it at the same time. To do this I will take a small steep outside your economic system and look back just a bit.

First lets prove your point that Bartering is a direct result of a monetary system gone wrong, in this case it happened in U.O. where we all know that players started hording money and only traded items with other players to attempt to find some value equal to what they desired. The bartering system here was player created and sustained because of the inflated market.

Second lets argue the point that Bartering is a direct result of an economic failure. In every game that I have played, G.W. , WoW, Eve, Turf Battles, D.A.o.C., Entropia Universe, etc. I have always been able to Barter with other players for the items that I need / want for items that the other player deemed to have the same value. After we both obtained what we wanted we go our separate ways and no to little monetary funds are exchanged and the Economic system in the game is none the worse for wear.

Third lets take a look at predictability, what is more likely that another player will have the funds to pay you for what you want or that another player might have several items that you are willing to trade the one that they want for? As for predictability it is much easier to find a player to trade with then to wait for some one to match your price in an Auction House.

Honestly, IMO, a games Economy can be crippled by only one thing. That is the the player community, either inflation or deflation is a direct result of player influence. It can be proven that any Economic System, if left alone, will remain in balance and not be in danger of being capsized. Now we are putting players in the mix and saying that those players, who are human, will not follow human instinct. Every one wants to scream that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer... It takes a very ingenuitive person to become rich. Now lets find as many of those people that we can and throw them into the same game, Now we either have every one gaining an obscene amount of wealth via any means possible  OR we have a few that will obtain and hord as much as possible and leave small scraps for others to beg for.

You are correct in saying that trying to create a better system is a mute point, but none the less it must be strived for. Any thing that can be made can be broken, that is a fundamental law of creation, however we can always try to make it stronger so that it does not break as easily.

If you build it, let others tear it apart so you can make it better.

  Lucifer.iix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 19

10/29/09 7:21:10 AM#25

 Where does the value of coint come from?

-- Normaly the material where its made from. So iron, copper , silver and so on. So its a weight thing....

-- And in my MMORPG the value of money is the "amount of gold" divided by "The money printed for it".

(So if you print 2x times more money than other currencies with the same amount of gold for it. The currencie is devaluated 50%)

 

So in my game there is no money... Only "GOLD" and "Paper" with gold stored for it.
Paper is mutch more handy to travel and to pay with... ofcourse...

 

Bye !!!  (Happy HaCkInG)

  Lucifer.iix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 19

10/29/09 7:34:35 AM#26
Originally posted by Talinguard

Every one wants to scream that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...

 

If everybody get rich.....Your "ALL" poor but don't know it yet !!!


Poor people are just normal people with less money than the rest...
Rich people are just normal people with more money than the rest...

So if there is no difference in "wealth" there is no "wealth", and your all very "poor" and very "happy" !!!

 

You have to make a construction that the poor people get a liitle more richer by lending wealth to other people with low risk.
And 'Rich' people can multiply there wealth by taking risk. (Or 'loss' a lot)

Than the poor people always get richer in money, but the difference between poor and rich alwas grows. But the amount of 'rich' people will decrease because of the risk taking (some one did a wrong bet, and is poor now).


Poor people get more money.... So more demand, Inflation, prizes go up....
Rich people get less money.... So less investments, less money circulating, Deflation, prizes go down....

 

Bye ! and good luck.....

  Lucifer.iix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 19

10/29/09 7:54:50 AM#27

 In economics, money supply or money stock, is the total amount of money available in an economy at a particular point in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

 

 

And that results in: "Financial DATA"

US Financial Data - 23 October 2009      Look's fine to me... Lol !

 

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/29/09 12:01:13 PM#28
Originally posted by Lucifer.iix

 Where does the value of coint come from?

-- Normaly the material where its made from. So iron, copper , silver and so on. So its a weight thing....

Thanks for joining the conversation!!

The value of coin in the US economy hasn't used representative money since the Nixon era and I don't know if agame that has ever used representative standard.

-- And in my MMORPG the value of money is the "amount of gold" divided by "The money printed for it".

(So if you print 2x times more money than other currencies with the same amount of gold for it. The currencie is devaluated 50%)

Again I'm not aware of any of the major titles that "print  money" against a physical commodity.

I'll argue that the value of money in most systems is the amount of money in the economy modified by the amount of commodities that can be bought with it modified by how that money is distributed among players.  There is little benefit in most games in having grossly more money then needed offer little advantage, thus the value of coin varies from player to player relative to the needs and wants of the player.

 

So in my game there is no money... Only "GOLD" and "Paper" with gold stored for it.
Paper is mutch more handy to travel and to pay with... ofcourse...

This all depends on whether or not gold has some useful function in game and where it comes from.  If you expect that people will value it simply because it's called "gold" I think your going to be disappointed.

 

Bye !!!  (Happy HaCkInG)

 

 

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/29/09 12:03:50 PM#29
Originally posted by Lucifer.iix
Originally posted by Talinguard

Every one wants to scream that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...

Actually I didn't say that, got your quotes messed up!

 

If everybody get rich.....Your "ALL" poor but don't know it yet !!!


Poor people are just normal people with less money than the rest...
Rich people are just normal people with more money than the rest...

So if there is no difference in "wealth" there is no "wealth", and your all very "poor" and very "happy" !!!

 

You have to make a construction that the poor people get a liitle more richer by lending wealth to other people with low risk.
And 'Rich' people can multiply there wealth by taking risk. (Or 'loss' a lot)

Than the poor people always get richer in money, but the difference between poor and rich alwas grows. But the amount of 'rich' people will decrease because of the risk taking (some one did a wrong bet, and is poor now).


Poor people get more money.... So more demand, Inflation, prizes go up....
Rich people get less money.... So less investments, less money circulating, Deflation, prizes go down....

 

Bye ! and good luck.....

Are we discussing the real world or the game economy?

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  arieschild

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/09
Posts: 65

"Shoot the rider not the Horse, a dead horse is cover and a scared horse is a whole lot of panic."

10/29/09 5:00:23 PM#30

Honestly Lucifer; I think you would do well to take the hour to review Talinguards PDF and take some notes. They would probably answer a lot of your questions.

 

Talinguard; I must apologize for taking a personal stand point in my last post, but I think that Human nature is a substantial input that effects any economy and would like to know how you take this into account. All game economies will be adversely effected by gold farmers and sellers, Do you have a corse of action set in place to deal with these intrusions?

If you build it, let others tear it apart so you can make it better.

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/29/09 6:26:15 PM#31
Originally posted by arieschild

Honestly Lucifer; I think you would do well to take the hour to review Talinguards PDF and take some notes. They would probably answer a lot of your questions.

 

Talinguard; I must apologize for taking a personal stand point in my last post, but I think that Human nature is a substantial input that effects any economy and would like to know how you take this into account. All game economies will be adversely effected by gold farmers and sellers, Do you have a corse of action set in place to deal with these intrusions?

Sorry haven't been ignoring you it's just that I need a little more time to prepare for my response, and I didn't take anything personal.  I enjoy talking about this stuff and a learn from others even if I come off as being somewhat of a know-it-all.  I appreciate your input.

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Lucifer.iix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 19

10/30/09 9:25:06 AM#32

This all depends on whether or not gold has some useful function in game and where it comes from.  If you expect that people will value it simply because it's called "gold" I think your going to be disappointed.

 

The only useful function of 'GOLD BARS' is for printing money AND to buy 'other' currencies, for buying forein goods. You can make 'gold bars' of course but it will cost you more than its value. So nobody will create them only when the value gets to rediculas high (Self correcting system). The use of the normal gold is for luxurary goods like a golden watch or electronic goods. In the begin of the game (year -4) the 'governments' and 'population' get created and they only have 'GOLD BARS'. And they will store the gold at deposits and will get 'printed' money for it. That printed money are just 101010110 on a bank account, They dont really get printed.

The nice thing is that the "GOVERNMENT" can "control" the economics (inflation/deflation/excange rate) if the government is 'RICH'. (Putting more GOLD in the vault or print more, or buy stocks/debt). Are there players that are richer than a country the government can't control the markets anymore. Just the US doenst control the "Credit To Default Swap Market" of 5 Trilj. dollars beqause they dont have the money for it. But the US is "NOW" controlling the 'Housing' markets, keeping the prizes high. So a little bit of control is nice to have....
Collective animal behavior and Economics don't match so nice...
Good luck.... Getting a good economical system is very difficult.

 

 

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  10/30/09 10:31:41 AM#33
Originally posted by Lucifer.iix

This all depends on whether or not gold has some useful function in game and where it comes from.  If you expect that people will value it simply because it's called "gold" I think your going to be disappointed.

 

The only useful function of 'GOLD BARS' is for printing money AND to buy 'other' currencies, for buying forein goods. You can make 'gold bars' of course but it will cost you more than its value. So nobody will create them only when the value gets to rediculas high (Self correcting system). The use of the normal gold is for luxurary goods like a golden watch or electronic goods. In the begin of the game (year -4) the 'governments' and 'population' get created and they only have 'GOLD BARS'. And they will store the gold at deposits and will get 'printed' money for it. That printed money are just 101010110 on a bank account, They dont really get printed.

The nice thing is that the "GOVERNMENT" can "control" the economics (inflation/deflation/excange rate) if the government is 'RICH'. (Putting more GOLD in the vault or print more, or buy stocks/debt). Are there players that are richer than a country the government can't control the markets anymore. Just the US doenst control the "Credit To Default Swap Market" of 5 Trilj. dollars beqause they dont have the money for it. But the US is "NOW" controlling the 'Housing' markets, keeping the prizes high. So a little bit of control is nice to have....
Collective animal behavior and Economics don't match so nice...
Good luck.... Getting a good economical system is very difficult.

 

 

I belive you're looking at the game economy though the "glasses" of the real economy.  People involved in game economics have seen that people try to use elements of real world economics in the game world and fail, because they didn't understand the differences in what players need and want in game, and what people in the real world need and want and recognize that the two often aren't compatable.

Now to be honest I don't have enough information to truly understand what your proposing (if anything).  I cut my own presentation on my ideas from 50 slides down to about 1/2 that (15 pages of written material) in order to explain my idea, thus if you're trying to explain your own ideas, were gonna need a lot more info.

You say;

"The only useful function of 'GOLD BARS' is for printing money AND to buy 'other' currencies, for buying forein goods."

There is some truth in that statment in the real world, but in the game world that is flat out wrong (at least the way I'm understaning the statement).  Luxury items in the game world have little if any value and are usually only tokens of a players accomplishments and as such are low the list of priorities.  In a world with PvP these items are virtually worthless.  As a result, printing money gainst something of little value in game undermines the concept of represenitive money.

If you read my concept you would know that I also use the concept of represenitive money.  Insted of gold I created a fictional substance of equally high value to every player within the game.  It's called EBM and it is a component used to create all magical items within the game and as the physical substance which money is printed against.  Thus, EBM is analogus to gold in the real world, but I had to adapt the concept in order to make it work in the game world.  Along with that I created a unique system of distribution and have worked to deal with a lot of the issues that the traditional F&D economies suffer from, including RMT.

I'm in a hurry, but I'll come back and explain my thoughts on RMT.....

 

 

 

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Bjordion

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/11
Posts: 10

3/19/12 1:38:36 AM#34

Man I love these long, thought provoking posts...

 

Excellent presentation OP.  I'd like to suggest theft as a means for commodity to be lost/transferred from one player to another.  What I have in mind is chiefly meant to combat gold farmers that have the potential to hoard commodity and wreck havok on the system.  

 

Players that accumulate massive amounts of wealth and do not spend it, i.e. do not actively participate in the production/consumption cycle of the system, are, in my humble opinion, gold farmers.  Simply possessing vast game wealth is not in and of itself a crime, which is why I am steadfastly against a taxation system that penalizes the rich.  A flat tax rate can work if and only if it provides benefits within the game structure (increased guards/security of the resident city, R&D for magic/tech, etc.), but that is another topic altogether.  Hoarding wealth is a crime within the system, because it allows for manipulation of commodity value by an elite few that can potentially ruin the fun of the game for many.  Players that possess large amounts of wealth AND regularly spend it as part of the consumption/production cycle do not fall into this category.  

 

Plainly put, require wealth over a certain threshold that has existed for a certain length of time to be held at a physical location (bank, personal house, guild hall, etc.) that can be raided or broken into in some fashion.  

 

Before discounting this suggestion, take a look at the modus operandi of the gold farmer:  

1. They work alone

2. They perform repetitive tasks that yield the highest possible amount of commodity with the smallest amount of time committment

3. They do not invest commodity beyond the minimum required amount into their character

 

This makes gold farmers ideal candidates for raiding.  They operate solo, so they have no backup and no guild members to offend who will exact retribution.  If they are true gold farmers then they are off farming somewhere and cannot see to the defense of their storage facility.  Give other players the ability to raid the storage facility where all that commodity is held, and one of two outcomes is guaranteed to occur: 

1. Commodity is obtained and redistributed back into the system

2. Players are defeated by the defenses (fortification, wards, enchantments, guardians, etc.) of the gold farmer.  Defenses that cost resources and commodity to develop, time to plan and place, and commodity to maintain upkeep.

 

Either outcome is a win scenario for the system.  If the gold farmer is forced to spend commodity to protect what they have, they will continually spend to maintain their protections.  This environment is not at all suitable for the typical gold farmer and I believe would highly discourage them from participating in the game in their typical fashion.  Typical (sarcasm font here). 

 

It is now 2:30 in the morning where I'm at, so I shall post this for now and return to edit it tomorrow.

I has a crayon

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  3/19/12 8:39:43 AM#35

 

They say great minds think alike.....

Originally I had just such a system as part of my presentation (and I think It's mentioned somewhere in this thread), but it was a system that required several pages of explanation (the presentation was over 50 pages at one point) and wasn’t necessary for the core to function.  It's always been my intention to design ancillary systems and post them separately.

I created the system for two reasons.  It creates real tangible reasons for conflict.  It also address the exact point you've made regarding hording.  I know it's impossible to prevent gold farmering without creating restrictive artificial feeling rules.  Instead I decided to incorporate gold farmers and their style of play into the game just as you've suggested.  

If you've read my presentation in the link you know that all items require a specific commodity and that commodity can be exchanged for money.  So the theft of coin and commodity is possible though some fantasized fictional mechanic means that players cannot horde items or coin.  Well, they can hord the item, but not the commodity that makes it valuable.

In each realm there is a vault and every player that wants to store their money and goods would do so in the realm vault.  By storing it in "realm" vault it would assure that online or offline you could be assured that other players in the realm would have a vested interest in protecting the realm vault as everyone stores their wealth there.  The wealthiest members of the realm would have a proportionally larger investment which is always a good thing.  The amount of money lost in a raid would be proportional to the amount of wealth each player has within the vault.

Attacks on the realm vault would come in stages taking several hours, each stage requiring more players and increasing in rewards all of which would come from each realms vault.

This would have the added advantage of ensuring that the realms with the greatest wealth offer the greatest reward.  With several realms in the mix, smaller realms could work together to balance out larger ones.

I also agree with your assessment of farmers.  They don't participate in the game like most thus they make PvE their focus and are generally unprepared to defend their wealth from other players.

Theft insures that money is circulating which is necessary for a healthy economy.

I wrote more, but honestly the possibilities are virtually limitless and depend on the system overall.

I know I wrote about this system here as well, I just can't find it.....

 

 

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Bjordion

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/11
Posts: 10

3/19/12 8:37:00 PM#36

Figured I'd just piggyback off your comments rather than editing my previous post.

 

Yes, it is difficult to convey the idea of potential theft without going into specific detail about the aspect.  And as you point out, such a potential creates a very real reason for conflict.  The entire point of implementing such a feature is to draw the hoarders back into the economic system.  If they are forced to spend in order to defend (and spend continuously, replenishing arrows, repairing defenses, wages for guards, etc.) then they are part of the system and the desired result is achieved.  Moreover, such a feature heavily promotes the advantages of joining a guild or at least a group of friends in an effort for self-preservation.  Again, this is a characteristic quite foreign to a gold farmer.  

 

To wrap my initial post up, let me state that such a feature of the system (allowing theft) would not have anywhere near the effect on a regular player, even if they are the weekend warrior type, as it would on the gold farmer type.  Strength comes in numbers and only the most dedicated and addicted player that logs significant hours (as a true player, not just as farmer) could operate in solo mode and possibly hope to survive the onslaught of raiders and thieves.  This feature isn't designed to pidgeon hole a player into a certain method of play.  Crafters can craft, PvEers can PvE, PvPers can PvP.  As long as the player participates in the economy it is highly unlikely they will become a target.  A FIFO system could even be used (purely spitballing here) to identify gold hoarders.  FIFO is an accounting term, First In First Out.  If I make $10 yesterday, then make another $10 today but also spend $10 I am left with $10.  That $10 is from today.  The $10 from yesterday has been spent.  A gold farmer typically (I love this word obviously) will *gasp* hoard their wealth.  With a FIFO system this distinctly separates them from a wealthy player that regularly spends and generates large amounts of commodity.  Code could be written to identify certain players (and make this information known to the general public via "tavern gossip") that have "aged" wealth over a certain numerical threshold.  If a player is part of the economic system they will not fall into this category.  Gold farmers are then targeted by the player base and wealth/commodity is redistributed accordingly.  And let's face it, even the most hardcore PvE player would be lining up around the block to get a chance to stick it to a gold farmer.

 

OP, I very much like the concept of multiple realms in your presentation, and I agree 4-5 would be preferable (5 is ideal IMHO).  However, I'm not clear on why you do not like the idea of commodity being gained through PvP (unless I misinterpreted what you said).  Please expound on that a little more, and I will go back to your presentation to see if I clicked through a page or two by accident.

I has a crayon

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  3/20/12 8:28:57 AM#37
Originally posted by Bjordion

Figured I'd just piggyback off your comments rather than editing my previous post.

 

Yes, it is difficult to convey the idea of potential theft without going into specific detail about the aspect.  And as you point out, such a potential creates a very real reason for conflict.  The entire point of implementing such a feature is to draw the hoarders back into the economic system.  If they are forced to spend in order to defend (and spend continuously, replenishing arrows, repairing defenses, wages for guards, etc.) then they are part of the system and the desired result is achieved.  Moreover, such a feature heavily promotes the advantages of joining a guild or at least a group of friends in an effort for self-preservation.  Again, this is a characteristic quite foreign to a gold farmer.  

 

To wrap my initial post up, let me state that such a feature of the system (allowing theft) would not have anywhere near the effect on a regular player, even if they are the weekend warrior type, as it would on the gold farmer type.  Strength comes in numbers and only the most dedicated and addicted player that logs significant hours (as a true player, not just as farmer) could operate in solo mode and possibly hope to survive the onslaught of raiders and thieves.  This feature isn't designed to pidgeon hole a player into a certain method of play.  Crafters can craft, PvEers can PvE, PvPers can PvP.  As long as the player participates in the economy it is highly unlikely they will become a target.  A FIFO system could even be used (purely spitballing here) to identify gold hoarders.  FIFO is an accounting term, First In First Out.  If I make $10 yesterday, then make another $10 today but also spend $10 I am left with $10.  That $10 is from today.  The $10 from yesterday has been spent.  A gold farmer typically (I love this word obviously) will *gasp* hoard their wealth.  With a FIFO system this distinctly separates them from a wealthy player that regularly spends and generates large amounts of commodity.  Code could be written to identify certain players (and make this information known to the general public via "tavern gossip") that have "aged" wealth over a certain numerical threshold.  If a player is part of the economic system they will not fall into this category.  Gold farmers are then targeted by the player base and wealth/commodity is redistributed accordingly.  And let's face it, even the most hardcore PvE player would be lining up around the block to get a chance to stick it to a gold farmer.

 

OP, I very much like the concept of multiple realms in your presentation, and I agree 4-5 would be preferable (5 is ideal IMHO).  However, I'm not clear on why you do not like the idea of commodity being gained through PvP (unless I misinterpreted what you said).  Please expound on that a little more, and I will go back to your presentation to see if I clicked through a page or two by accident.

 

It's quite refreshing to have a conversation with someone who is capable of moving beyond the ideas pioneered by Everquest and perfected by World of Warcraft.

In regards to gold farmers, I agree totally.  Instead of fighting the problem by making it impossible or threatening to ban people that do it, I would create a world where players can exploit the farmer (not really expoit, but force the farmer to play the game) and have fun while they do it.  This of course will make farming less profitable and will help maintain the value of the currency.

In regards to theft I think we're on the same page.  Theft takes place on a more macroscopic level so that losses are shared....no single individual is left to feel exploited, but on the other side, the thieves reward is in relation to their number.  That is, the greater their number (those wishing to plunder another realm) the greater the chance for success, but the lesser the reward.  Thus, players will have to measure their number against the amount of time they need to sustain their attack in order to make a raid profitable.  Hopefully that makes sense with so little context.

"However, I'm not clear on why you do not like the idea of commodity being gained through PvP"

There are two ways to obtain commodity.  One is a sort of wage given to the member of a faction, guild, or clan for completing certain tasks.  The tasks would be the sort of thing that an average player would do in the course of playing the game.  The point is that the tasks would consume time and prevent players from creating multiple characters just to collect a "wage"

But there are 5 types of commodity, the other 4 are earned in combat with other players.  When you win you earn a small percentage of the commodity the other player has used to create and power their items, the same items they are using in combat against you.  Thus the rewards you earn for defeating another player are in direct proportion to the power of their items.  The intangable is the players skills (not to be confused with the players charachter)  I have very specific reasons for doing this way.  If the presentation didn't make it clear let me know.

Just remember that it all relates to money and the power of your items.  That is, the power of items comes from the amount AND the different types of commodity you bind into your items (a player only receives one type as a wage).  Money is created when you exchange commodity for coin.  The exchange rate is determined by a formula that looks at the amount of goods and services against the amount of money in circulation modified by how quickly money is changing hands. 

It's all designed to make the economy sustainable and maintain the value of coin over long periods of time, that is, prevent inflation.  Other games battle inflation by introducing new items into the game usually through expansions.  The new items have value because they are usually better than older items.  Players spend time to retrieve them and place them on the player markets.  The price they charge is in some relation to that players perception of how much each unit of money is worth.  The more money there is in the economy the less each unit is worth.  

The struggle to create drains that siphon out excess cash to prevent inflation has had it's own consequences which I'll skip for now in the interest of brevity...ooops ...too late...lol

 

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Bjordion

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/11
Posts: 10

3/20/12 8:17:07 PM#38
Originally posted by Talinguard
There are two ways to obtain commodity.  One is a sort of wage given to the member of a faction, guild, or clan for completing certain tasks.  The tasks would be the sort of thing that an average player would do in the course of playing the game.  The point is that the tasks would consume time and prevent players from creating multiple characters just to collect a "wage"
But there are 5 types of commodity, the other 4 are earned in combat with other players.  When you win you earn a small percentage of the commodity the other player has used to create and power their items, the same items they are using in combat against you.  Thus the rewards you earn for defeating another player are in direct proportion to the power of their items.  The intangable is the players skills (not to be confused with the players charachter)  I have very specific reasons for doing this way.  If the presentation didn't make it clear let me know.

Just remember that it all relates to money and the power of your items.  That is, the power of items comes from the amount AND the different types of commodity you bind into your items (a player only receives one type as a wage).  Money is created when you exchange commodity for coin.  The exchange rate is determined by a formula that looks at the amount of goods and services against the amount of money in circulation modified by how quickly money is changing hands. 

It's all designed to make the economy sustainable and maintain the value of coin over long periods of time, that is, prevent inflation.  Other games battle inflation by introducing new items into the game usually through expansions.  The new items have value because they are usually better than older items.  Players spend time to retrieve them and place them on the player markets.  The price they charge is in some relation to that players perception of how much each unit of money is worth.  The more money there is in the economy the less each unit is worth.  

The struggle to create drains that siphon out excess cash to prevent inflation has had it's own consequences which I'll skip for now in the interest of brevity...ooops ...too late...lol

 

Went back and re-read the presentation.  Helps when it's not well past midnight and I'm already half asleep.

 

Your definition of wage above seems to contradict page 11 of your presentation when you state that "commodity is not earned from time spent questing, killing npc's or any other activity that requires time spent interacting in the game".  I believe this is where my initial confusion stems from.  Please clarify.

 

The idea of players losing power from weapon enchantments when they die is intriguing, but the concept almost seems like "anti-xp".  I've always loved the notion of weapons gaining xp from combat and developing new/greater abilities as they advance in level, but to be perfectly honest I'm not very keen to the idea of being forced to gather multiple commodity types from different realms just to obtain maximum potential of an enchantment.  I may be misinterpreting, but this seems like the player is being forced to play the game a certain way.  The crafter or even dedicated PvEer doesn't have native access (I like the description) to all commodity types and is forced to either PvP or trade via the commodity exchange for the desired commodity type.  This is stating the obvious, and I know you've mulled this over, but how will a system like this not turn into an abusive "buy low/sell high"?  Gold farmers would just farm the commodity exchange, there would never be a reason to go out into the game world itself.  I understand that having multiple commodity types encourages and almost demands that  players interact with one another, but it seems too ripe for exploitation.

I has a crayon

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  4/27/12 11:28:45 AM#39
Sorry I missed your post, look for a response soon...

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

  Talinguard

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 672

Player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.

 
OP  4/30/12 12:15:41 PM#40
"Went back and re-read the presentation.  Helps when it's not well past midnight and I'm already half asleep.

Your definition of wage above seems to contradict page 11 of your presentation when you state that "commodity is not earned from time spent questing, killing npc's or any other activity that requires time spent interacting in the game".  I believe this is where my initial confusion stems from.  Please clarify."

 

Looking at it again, I can understand the confusion.  I think it has to do with my poor choice of words.  I said”… or any other activity that requires time spent interacting in the game"

 

I should have said “…or any other activity that requires time spent interacting WITH the game"

 

In other words, players interact with one another in order to become wealthy.

 

The reality is that if there is money in the game, it has to come into the world though some kind of interaction with the game.  If you’ve read my presentation you’d know that the mechanism in which money comes into the world requires that players simply play the game.  That’s it.

 

The idea is that players can’t “farm” mobs for money or items.  They must engage and interact each other.  That means that players defend the currency in the world from each other.  Because money is directly linked to a substance that improves and maintains the power of items, then I’ve created a system that incentivizes players to value money.  This creates new and different social incentives as well.

 

I realized that in most games players don’t value money they value what it can do.  While a player is gaining experience (i.e. gaining levels) money has high value because items are constantly changing, thus the need for money is very high, but the end game is where most games fail.  The reason they fail is the need for money declines as players collect the best items for a given slot.  If a player uses a sword as a primary weapon, then once you obtain the best (or very close to) the best sword, then the need for money to purchase a new sword has declined.  At the end game, once players have acquired reasonably good sets of gear, the need for money declines.  I’m not suggesting that players don’t need money.  Most games see that that’s not the case.

 

When you combine what I’ve said above with the fact that in many cases items can’t even be purchased, they must be gained through mandatory interaction with NPC’s, this again decreases the value of coin and increases the value of items that help them gain more items.  That is, each new (presumably better) items gives a player enhanced utility.   It is this enhancement that makes gaining other new items via interaction with NPC’s even easier.

 

In the end, what happens?  Players obtain most of what they want and they very quickly become board.

 

This is where my idea is totally different.  Items can gain and lose power based on a players skill within the game.  Now there is no doubt that PvP is the most direct route to obtaining other types of commodity from other players, but players can also obtain commodity though earning money (which is of course what gives it value!!) selling the best raw materials, used to create the best items, earned though combat with monsters.

 

This is largly besed on the assumption that players play the game to accomplish something, whatever that something is, that virtually anything a player wishes to accomplish in the game (within reason) can be done more easily with better items.

 

 

 

"The idea of players losing power from weapon enchantments when they die is intriguing, but the concept almost seems like "anti-xp".  I've always loved the notion of weapons gaining xp from combat and developing new/greater abilities as they advance in level, but to be perfectly honest I'm not very keen to the idea of being forced to gather multiple commodity types from different realms just to obtain maximum potential of an enchantment.  I may be misinterpreting, but this seems like the player is being forced to play the game a certain way.  The crafter or even dedicated PvEer doesn't

 

have native access (I like the description) to all commodity types and is forced to either PvP or trade via the commodity exchange for the desired commodity type.  This is stating the obvious, and I know you've mulled this over, but how will a system like this not turn into an abusive "buy low/sell high"?  Gold farmers would just farm the commodity exchange, there would never be a reason to go out into the game world itself.  I understand that having multiple commodity types encourages and almost demands that  players interact with one another, but it seems too ripe for exploitation."

 

Few things I’d like to clarify….

 

Remember that items gain a benefit from something tangible, that is, a substance represented in the game world, not something conceptual like XP.  Having it or not having it doesn’t prevent a player from doing anything.  The sword you carry still does damage, but the commodity infused into it unlocks its full potential.

 

I’ve never thought of it in terms of “anti-XP”, and while I don’t think that’s entirely unfair assessment (though the gaining of experience is an entirely different scale) I think you’re looking at it the wrong way.

 

I’ve always believed that player accomplishment is relative to the chance of meaningful consequences in the event you fail.  In my concept failure means losing a little of what makes your items powerful, but NOT the item itself.

 

In response to your concern regarding farmers and exploitation, you have a valid point, however I’ve given this a lot of thought.  I had to decide if I wanted to prevent farming or not.  In the end, I incorporated farmers into the game if they choose to play.  Farmers want currency to sell to other players.  The problem for currency traders is that the more they have on hand the less it will be worth in game terms.  This is because currency is directly linked to commodity which has real tangible value in the eyes of players.  Large swings in currency relative to goods & services means a decline in the value of coin.

 

Furthermore, I foresee a system where enormous sums of currency can't be taken out of the game.  That is to say that when a player “banks” his money it is effectively taken out of the economy.  It is unreachable by anyone else in the game.  Though I haven’t explicitly laid it out, I would allow players to bank “reasonable” sums that are 100% safe.  But beyond that the money would be stored in a public vault of some type that could be looted by other players.  Those with the most money to loot will always be the farmers…But before everyone gets their panties in a bunch at the thought of theft of your hard earned cash, I promise the system is well thought out and creates more opportunities for adversarial gameplay.  It’s actually a concept still in the works, but the point is that money, large sums of money cannot be protected 100%, thus players will target those that have the most to loose.  Those with the most to lose will be well equipped senior players (in which case the conflict will be a welcome part of the game) or they will be farmers (in which case, they will be tasked to defend their fortunes and won’t have time to continue to create them).

 

Either way it’s a win win.

 

In regards to earning commodities from other realms, I think you understand, that you can earn your commodities in ways other than combat.  Since everyone has goals and those goals fuel incentives, players will do the activity that brings them the most fun and virtually all activities play into the overall economy.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

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