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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 is apparently PayToWin based on this video... :(

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245 posts found
  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

4/30/12 10:30:40 AM#21
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Sybnal

People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

 

You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

 

REALLY?

 

Yes, really.

Your reaching, seriously reaching for some way to call GW2 a P2W model, and it just isnt working.

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

4/30/12 10:31:03 AM#22
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

 

The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

-Keys for random world chests. I don't even care if "stuffed bears" come out of them. They're in the WORLD as an "exploration" bonus. It gives you the sensation that you've found something only to have it ask you to go to the cash-shop and purchase a key to open it. Not cool, but then again not extremely pay-to-win. It's more of a philisophical concern.

 

-XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

 

 

-Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

 

/end rant :(

 

 

That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

 

Thanks for reading!

That keys you're talking about, they are world drops as well and it was discussed about 1 million times on this forums...

XP boosts... OH NOES! The person will get to lvl 80 30 mins before I do! Whoah... I could care less since there's no real advantage in gaining levels faster. What's the advantage there? Rushing trough the content faster? I'll see whatever I'll want to see when I want to see it, period... 

lol... The last one was discussed on even more than 1 million times on this forums... IF you played the game this beta you'd know the value of gold for gems... You didn't even had to play beta, you could've just check the forums in the past few weeks and read up on the numerous discussions going on here... Now back to the gold... You couldn't even get 1 gold for 100 gems... You can exchange your ingame gold for gems (the exchange rate was around 10 silver for 100 gems) and get what ever xp boost or chest key you want... You can ofcourse buy the gems with real money and exchange it for less gold but I don't see the real motivation in that besides buying the blueprints (which don't really cost much) for WvWvW and some other crap like that.... 

Pay to win indeed, god... -.- 

So you're telling me you can't purchase gear off the exchange with gold? No actually you can, so how is that not a motivation? You're completely ignoring the problem here thinking I'm outright trying to troll GW2. I'm trying to point out a legitimate concern here. 

Yes, XP boosters are pay to win, as is exchanging RL currency for in-game currency, but I will admit (as i said in my OP) that keys I wasn't 100% about. Please post links to point out what you're talking about. Simply saying "has been discussed 1million times on the forum" means nothing!

Gear which actually matters in game is mostly bought with karma, so yeah... Tho you can buy other stuff which don't really matter much or even cost much gold... 

No XP boosters are not pay to win because you will not get the direct benefit of being a higher level in a lvl 8 zone, you'll simply get downleveled and your attacks will decrease to accomodate the zone level you're in right now... So when you're done with the zone and want to move on, you'll still be decreased back down to that zone level so there's no use of it again unless you want to skip like 50% of the content just to use the boost... I really don't mind somoene leveling faster than me since the whole leveling content is fun and exactly what this game devs are pointing out really and giving us to try out the most... So skipping content - no thanks... It's kinda like pay to loose in my eyes..

I'm not going to google my ass off just to give you a link of a picture where it shows a guy got a mystic key as a world drop, you could've done it yourself before you stated this nonsence :P

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1048

4/30/12 10:31:18 AM#23

There will always be the argument over "what is an advantage" .

So explain how saving time gives me an advantage.  Where? because when u get to level 80 you are still the same as all the level 80s.  You got there 9 minutes per level faster than the other person.  Which, is hundreds of dollars to save a half day of game playing, a sunday .  So this person bought a sunday and somehow that makes them "paid to win the game".  

Let's break the math out further.  Hundreds of dollars can theoretically buy you 6.5 levels.  How does them spending hundreds of dollars on 6.5 levels make  them a better player, a stronger player, give them an advantage over you? 

I drive to work. I bought a car, the guy next to me takes a bus. We do the same job. Neither of us have an advantage. 

  Arawulf

Guest Writer

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 421

4/30/12 10:32:34 AM#24
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by jtcgs

Calling this game P2W is an insult to P2W games.

By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.

-How exactly does that make standard Sub-Fee games each month P2W? That makes no sense.

I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.

-So you're saying you're paying a FLAT RATE fee that EVERYONE ELSE PAYS in order to stay on a level playing field? So you're saying you can pay an ADDITIONALY $15/month to get more of these benefits? No? Then that means they're standard features to the game, thus NOT making the game "PayToWin". 

A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.

-No, actually a sub does NOT = "PayToWin" as the argument you presented is completely incorrect by PayToWin definition.

I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?

World of Warcraft - the largest sub game on the planet allows you to purchase a pet from the cash shop and sell it in game for gold.

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

4/30/12 10:33:09 AM#25

Same old crap again and again.

Xp Boosts are not pay to win in GW2. 80 levels times 90 minutes equals 7200 min. With Xp Boost you'd take 6480 min. Difference of 720, divide that by 60 minutes you get 12 hours. So how is that pay to win. Do tell, how is 12 hours such a massive imbalance.

If anyone wants to buy gear on the trader by spending gems, power to them. Seeing that the best looking gear will most likely be behind a dungeon vendors, let them at it. Gear at 80 is capped so once you have the best stats that is it. Unless you think max gear will be extremely hard to get. Something Anet has disputed from day one.

Why don't you do some real research and compare the cash shop's impact on the game and not how items in the cash shop are similar to other items in another game.

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

4/30/12 10:33:18 AM#26
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Sybnal

People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

 

You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

 

REALLY?

 

Yes, really.

Your reaching, seriously reaching for some way to call GW2 a P2W model, and it just isnt working.

Not only that, the exhange rates on gems for golds are just like a funny joke... Buying 1600 gems for around 10 $ just go get 1 gold or something like that ? WHAAAT? XD

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1048

4/30/12 10:33:36 AM#27
I"d actually say a person who buys xp postions, and uses them all the time is at a serious disadvantage. The last thing i want ot do is play with someone who hasn't played the game enough to know their characters, anfd monsters get new tactifs every 10 levels.  They were dodging aoes at 20 and dodging the dodge on aoes at 30.  That's stuff you learn how to dela with by playing.  
  ToS-Drakemor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/04
Posts: 18

4/30/12 10:34:36 AM#28
I agree with alot of other replies here, I seen absolutely nothing in that cash shop that was pay to win. I even bought gems with farmed gold so I could get more keys after wasting my beta gems. I kinda acually smiled inside when I opened the shop and looked at its contents, that being said the shop can always be updated with new and completely different items so I will hold some reserve to not be disappointed later down the road.
  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  4/30/12 10:34:52 AM#29
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

[xp boosters]

How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell 

So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.

Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster.  In fact with this game it is counter productive.  There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends.  By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.

 

[stuff about gems to gold]

Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

 How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?

 

 

 

 

 

Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO.  It isn't a gear grind.  iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear.  I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items.  BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's.  Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience

As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE!  I comment on that because I was one of those people.  When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.

See red.

 

If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

I replied in kind.

 

 

So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.

If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.

Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels? 

 

You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Sybnal

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 260

4/30/12 10:39:19 AM#30
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Sybnal

People are confused about what Pay to Win means.

If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.

I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage.   Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those.  The only thing in there that I hated to see  was inventory and bank spaces.  But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right?  Blame capitalism.

So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar? 

 

You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% isn't an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income? 

 

REALLY?

Having used the xp boosts I can tell you that they arn't a big advantage,  you get a few more xp off killing mobs, that's it.  You could play an hour longer a day than your constant xp boost guy and probably stay on par with him.

Yes, exchanging gems for gold isn't an advantage because there is nothing you can buy for gold that you can't get or make yourself. Easily I may add.

So if someone wants to spend money instead of time, that's fine by me. 

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1048

4/30/12 10:39:53 AM#31
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

[xp boosters]

How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell 

So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.

Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster.  In fact with this game it is counter productive.  There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends.  By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.

 

[stuff about gems to gold]

Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

 How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?

 

 

 

 

 

Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO.  It isn't a gear grind.  iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear.  I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items.  BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's.  Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience

As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE!  I comment on that because I was one of those people.  When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.

See red.

 

If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

I replied in kind.

 

 

So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.

If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.

Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels? 

 

You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....

It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff.  If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come.  That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.  

As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store.  (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can.  And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself.  So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage.  They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.    

Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win.  PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing.  It's all about how its wielded. 

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

4/30/12 10:40:13 AM#32

Poor OP :(

 

Keys - These drop in game and are even given out as quest rewards. The chest they open only contain one tool (For harvesting or gathering lol), one buff like xp buff, karma buff, etc. and one potion that turns you into an animal.

So no, not pay to win.

 

XPBoost - ... Your boosted to level cap in PvP anyways but lets play along. XP Boosts can be gotten in game anyways. Not only that but you can trade gold for cash shop currency so.... again no pay to win.

 

Gems to Gold - Yep you can, but sadly this still isn't pay to win. Gold isn't whats going to get you the good stuff, Karma is. Will gold give you an edge in PvP? No, gold will not insure those supply caravans make it through. Will gold give you a gear/weapon edge? No, the better stuff is bought with Karma or the commendation coins or w/e they are called. So, where exactly is that gold giving you an advantage?

 

Sorry, GW2's shop isn't anywhere close to pay to win. Who knows maybe that will change in the future, but as for now you are simply incorrect.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16716

4/30/12 10:43:58 AM#33

The keys are pretty useless and drops in game as well.

I don't see how XP pots is pay to win, are you saying that "winning" is leveling up faster? I was pretty sure having fun and beating hard content was winning, not the time it takes you to level up. In fact I don't want XP pots, in EQ2 you got plenty for free (and could buy more for cash) but I never used any of them. To me you are leveling way too fast in modern MMOs and saying that and use XP pots at the same time would be incredible stupid.

As for buying gold that is true. However will you just get as much gold for the gems that players are willing to pay for it, and since almost all stuff you can get for gems looks rather useless to me I think that gem prices will be pretty low after the first few months. A few more character slots seems to be the only thing I want from the cashshop myself.

So you can buy some gold for cash without cheating (as many people who feel the need to buy gold do) but frankly would it be a lot worse if you could buy karma instead. Gold wont really matter that much since the gear is balanced anyways.

Real pay2win games sell raid and PvP gear that gives you a significant boost when you play. Those games aren't so common as many people seems to think. GW2 is worse than many P2P games but better than most F2P games (ifnot all of them).

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  4/30/12 10:44:51 AM#34
Originally posted by dontadow
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

snip

snip

 

 

snip

 

snip

 

 

 

snip

It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff.  If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come.  That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.  

As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store.  (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can.  And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself.  So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage.  They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.    

Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win.  PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing.  It's all about how its wielded. 

Obviously for the most part all of the comments here have laid out the bottom line that they don't consider it an issue given GW2's "unique" system of play? I haven't played the game to counter this point as it may very well be true.

As such, I'll simply nod my head and drop the thread as ONE of the following two things have happened:

 

-Nothing in the store is actually PayToWin as it would be in a traditional MMO, but given GW2's specific playstyle it diminishes the "PayToWin" aspect to negligable levels.

 

-OR-

 

-Players whom don't exactly understand how GW2 will work after launch are defending the system because they feel GW2 shouldn't be attacked under any circumstances simply because they themselves enjoy the game, and feel I was somehow trolling them with this thread.

 

Again, one of the two situations has happened, but I simply don't have enough information to conclude on either of them. So I will simply apologize and go back to playing DAOC for the afternoon, good day :)!

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  User Deleted
4/30/12 10:45:56 AM#35
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

You seem to miss the point that you cannot convert gold to gems unless someone is conversely willing to pay for the gems with their own RL money and sell them to you for gold.

I can guarantee that this already happens in every single MMO out there right now, except from a dodgy 3rd party and not usually the developer. SoE games already allow trading of 'Station Cash' in game via gifting, which essentially allows you to trade in game cash for RL cash shop items with other players. Based on this, you could say that every single game out there where in-game money has any worth is basically pay to win since you can buy it via 3rd party sellers.

More importantly though, you seem to think that gold even matters in GW2. It is nearly worthless once you reach max level. Even the WvWvW stuff is so cheap youll never run out if you play the game normally. Because gold is worthless, the game cannot be pay to win through the gold for gems exchange.

  Cursedsei

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1020

4/30/12 10:46:02 AM#36
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by jtcgs

Calling this game P2W is an insult to P2W games.

By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.

-How exactly does that make standard Sub-Fee games each month P2W? That makes no sense.

I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.

-So you're saying you're paying a FLAT RATE fee that EVERYONE ELSE PAYS in order to stay on a level playing field? So you're saying you can pay an ADDITIONALY $15/month to get more of these benefits? No? Then that means they're standard features to the game, thus NOT making the game "PayToWin". 

A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.

-No, actually a sub does NOT = "PayToWin" as the argument you presented is completely incorrect by PayToWin definition.

I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?

No, pay to win is spending to get a COMPETITIVE edge over another. You are the one who doesn't understand how it works. So unless you were in a "Race to 80" with a group of players, EXP boosters aren't going to do jack squat. Besides, the boosters apparently only work for kills, not events. Considering that mobs didn't seem to give me all that much experience to begin with per kill, an extra 10-15 xp wasn't going to add up for much.

Its honestly like paying to get an XP booster in WoW, that only gives you extra xp for mob kills. The biggest chunks of experience you'll be getting is through events (which aren't hard to find at all), and the random daily and monthly achievements. Not to mention the story quests give hefty chunks of experience as well.

 

And you are months late on the gem to gold thing bub. Its been known for a long while now, just like how the cash shop was known about since pretty much the games announcement. Your other mistake is trying to compare this to STO. Its easy for gold-sellers to do their work in a F2P title, where oh I don't know, its free to make an account. ArenaNet has done a good job of keeping sellers in check in the first GW title on the other hand, which is helped by requiring that initial cost.

Also...

"I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!"

This is a major logical fail. How is one supposed to turn gems "back into gold" if they have to buy the gems from someone who bought them with real money? What you are suggesting is an impossibility. If I can't sell the gems I bought with real money to someone with gold, how is anyone going to get gems to sell back as gold?

  Neutor

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 102

4/30/12 10:47:26 AM#37
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

[xp boosters]

How is this pay to win?  The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless.  In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter.  There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell 

So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.

Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster.  In fact with this game it is counter productive.  There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends.  By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.

 

[stuff about gems to gold]

Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.

 How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?

 

 

 

 

 

Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO.  It isn't a gear grind.  iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear.  I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items.  BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's.  Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience

As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE!  I comment on that because I was one of those people.  When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.

See red.

 

If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video

I replied in kind.

 

 

So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.

Last post in this thread because you obviously already have your mind made up.  I did not say they were worthless, I said they aren't as meaningful as in other games.  I did not find a single item through 20 levels that I said "WoW holy crap I must have this item for x to make y stronger".

If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.

Ok great, so either you buy the experience boost which gets you to hight levels with crapy armor gear or you buy the karma boost which gets you better armor gear but you can't do the level yet.   Do you see where I'm going here?  There really isn't an advantage to it at all!!!

Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels? 

You get skill points per level, yes, so technically that does give you more skills to use at max level...but you are still thinking about it incorrectly.  you can only have 5 active skills per weapon...which is learned from using the weapon nothing that you unlock per level and then you get 4 1 healing and 3 utility slots that you can use at any one time.  So even if you had all of your talents unlocked you still couldn't use them all...At level 20 I had saved up my skill points to buy the highest skill (7) talents I had available.  Again not an advantage!

 

You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....

Without playing it you are making a large assumption here.  Anyway, enjoy whichever game you choose but you should really do more research on this game; or better yet try it for yourself. 

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  Leethe

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/09
Posts: 876

4/30/12 10:47:42 AM#38

Playing one day to level 7 gave me 320 karma so while I don't know if that ammounts to much but it seemed pretty easy to get. Anet seem to be following the old TR philosophy in which they drop players into an aggressive prey-rich environment and just watch it rain cash or in this case, karma. As far a s XP boosts go, frankly this is the first game where I will say that xp boosting will disadvantage you in that you will spend less time getting to know your build and less time immersed in the game world, which would be a crying shame is this one appears to be an actual world. 

There is NO miracle patch.

95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

4/30/12 10:48:54 AM#39
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

******

 

So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.

If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.

Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels? 

 

You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....

IF you PLAYED the game you'd also see that it DROPS in world! Meaning poeple DO NOT infact have a competitive issue with the store. If they did they wouldn't be mostly debating this and disagreeing with you (funny, people who played the game try to convince someone who watched only 1 video and he's still ignoring everything being said. :D) ....

Getting karma faster doesn't really mean anything since every armor peace is not that expencive, if you'll do your events casually you'll have more than enough for your armor. They're not selling it in gem shop, what they're selling on gem shop is a pirate custome and transmutation stones which allow you to change the looks and the stats of 2 armors and transfer them from 1 to another to keep your stats or looks...

If you're level 80 in PvE then you have everything you unlocked while leveling available to you at WvWvW nothing more, nothing less... Only place where everything is unlocked is PVP arenas...

Oh but it does... And I don't know how you value your money, but buying 1000 gems for 9$ and then exchanging it for around 80 silver (which can't buy me anyhting) is just, well... Not worthy... The situation will probably change but I think the gems->gold transactions won't be worth the money. :)

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

4/30/12 10:49:12 AM#40
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by dontadow
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Neutor
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

VideoLink

snip

snip

 

 

snip

 

snip

 

 

 

snip

It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff.  If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come.  That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.  

As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store.  (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can.  And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself.  So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage.  They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.    

Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win.  PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing.  It's all about how its wielded. 

Obviously for the most part all of the comments here have laid out the bottom line that they don't consider it an issue given GW2's "unique" system of play? I haven't played the game to counter this point as it may very well be true.

As such, I'll simply nod my head and drop the thread as ONE of the following two things have happened:

 

-Nothing in the store is actually PayToWin as it would be in a traditional MMO, but given GW2's specific playstyle it diminishes the "PayToWin" aspect to negligable levels.

 

-OR-

 

-Players whom don't exactly understand how GW2 will work after launch are defending the system because they feel GW2 shouldn't be attacked under any circumstances simply because they themselves enjoy the game, and feel I was somehow trolling them with this thread.

 

Again, one of the two situations has happened, but I simply don't have enough information to conclude on either of them. So I will simply apologize and go back to playing DAOC for the afternoon, good day :)!

The problem is there are people that don't understand how the system works at all because they have yet to actually play the game. They then come to the forums and complain about pay to win and quickly get refuted. Don't feel bad, your not the first nor will you be the last.

Once you've actually played you learn fast that it is definitely not pay to win.

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