Originally posted by Volkon

 

So far they have failed to fail to meet any expectations they've been expected to meet. What they say is in the game is in the game. Besides, first hand experience is dramatically better than the word of mouth. With the caveat that I haven't played or tried Tera, this is the most fluidic combat system I've yet to experience. The absence of the trinity adds an entirely new level of dynamics that have to be experienced to appreciate. As much as I've enjoyed videos of the game even they pale in comparison to having your own go at it.

 

Friday comes. We'll see who has what to say.

WIth all due respect, Ilum was in TOR but did it work out for it? I could cite quite a few examples like that. In the game doesn't mean much until it's withstood the test of time. I don't doubt GW2 will be a decent game, but that doesn't mean everything about it will be, and that's really the key. As that will decide what "honest" feedback is like after launch, I say honest because we all know not all feedback will be (positive or negative).

Friday through monday also doesn't mean much in the big picture. It will still be new and shiny at that point, so most feedback will be shiny.

Originally posted by Mythios11

Originally posted by darkehawke

everything in the op is reasons why i want to play this game!

This is the official GW2 fanboi rebuttal to anyone who criticizes the game.   I think ArenaNet should market this on a T-shirt or something.  

You think ArenaNet should create t shirts adorned with quotes referencing why their fans are fans?  I can't tell if you're for or against the game.  If you're against it, this seems like a pretty weak troll attempt.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by pags411

Great post.  I agree with all of yours points.  It's interesting that some people feel the need to rebutt yours by pointing out that they are drawn to teh game for the reasons you listed.  That doesn't change the fact that the majority of players today will be pushed away.  Most of those players are on forums arguing with the majority that stats don't make you cooler.  It's a moot point.  It's like asserting that blue is a better color than red in a country whose national color is red.

I think the game will have a big uptake at first, and see a lot of growing pains/outcry against its design philosophy.  I am pretty sure we will hear these exact points coming from a position of complaint and worded differently.  This would possibly give the game bad publicity, and accelerate the process of it carving out a dedicated niche of gamers.  At the same time, I don't think anyone coming from a position similar to mine would be bothered by that.  A game doesn't have to be hugely successful for it to be fun (and it doesn't have to be fun to be hugely successful)!

To those saying that these reasons are reasons for them to play: that's great, and I feel the same way.  This post doesn't seem to be trying to convince you of what your preferences are in a game, though.  It's simply pointing to the obvious state of mainstream MMO communities today.  Frankly, it sounds like ArenaNet is intentionally navigating the market in a way to appeal specifically to those of us who yearn for a paradigm shift in MMO games.  I'm not saying it'll be the best thing in the world, but I do think that it has a shot of providing me with a game that seeks to take a different approach- an approach that I've been looking for in recent years.

Maybe, but I am not so sure that people play games like Wow just because it have the ultimate mechanics.

MMOs are about having a fun time, and Wow is a well made game (as is EQ) but that does not mean MMOs must be made just like it to have many players. People tend to assume that these mechanics are what make Wow so large but I think it is more about quality.

Just because I like drinking Guiness doesn´t mean I don't like a cold lager as well. If GW2 is fun to play it will be huge, and if it isn't nothing can save it no matter what mechanics it have. It is just that simple.

An apt analogy.  And I wholeheartedly agree with your stance on this game.  However, I feel as though we are not representative of the majority (which I think is the OPs point).  Let me rephrase your example to reflect what I think the OP is suggesting:

If you guzzle Coors Light exclusively, you will probably think Guiness is stupid for being so different from "beer" in your mind.

I'm a huge beer aficionado, btw (I live in CO for goodness sake!).  I see GW2 similarly to how I see a good brewery.  The majority of people are just looking to get trashed on yellow water.

Originally posted by ictown

I'm confident that GW2 will be an excellent game and find a dedicated audience that will really enjoy it. I am not confident that GW2 will be a hit with more mainstream MMO players though, for the following reasons and these are the same reasons that is wrong with mmos today.

1. Players don’t want to look cool, they want to be cool.

Every time a player makes a choice based on a 1% dodge bonus, or wears stupid looking armor with great stats over visual aesthetics they are opting for substance over style. GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system.

I disagree

I'd much rather look good while killing you in pvp. Performance should be character and player based not gear based except for looking dashing while dashing someone else.

2. Players want to be the best without actually being the best.

Players want an advantage over everyone else, especially if they can achieve that with mediocre ability spread out over countless hours of monotony that the next guy can’t or won’t invest; a weapon that provides both a stat advantage and exclusive access to a dungeon to get an increased advantage allows mediocre players to get better simply through willpower and time invested versus actual skill or growth. GW2 goes the opposite direction of this, so far as to de-level players going backward in content, almost negating in total what advances they attained through gear and stats alone to keep things interesting. When stats fail to make players better, most players will have nowhere to turn.

I disagree I will take my lumps and have fun doing it. It's a game and sometimes getting killed can be as funny as winning. So what if i am leveled down to the person i am attacking it just makes the fight that much more interesting.

3. When players can’t be the best they want somebody (preferably) or something else (works too) to blame instead of themselves.

Eventually things don’t work out as many players wish, and when that happens it’s easier to blame the healers or the tank, or the opposing faction, or the guildie who picked the dumbest class and is wasting a raid slot, etc. instead of doing a self-examination and figuring out how they can improve and then acting to do so. Considering that GW2 is more reliant on player-skill than any other MMO, and that professions are essentially jacks of all trades, finger-pointing will be awkward at best and accusations against balance issues or ad hominem attacks against ArenaNet just won’t work long-term for bad players.

I am sure all gamers know their limits and only rage once in a while.

4. Players don’t want to have to think, they just want to act.

Many MMOs cater to skill rotations, cool-down management, and provide high-reward abilities with no risks associated with their use. A perceived “I Win” button like Moa Morph that can actually miss is a foreign concept to many players, and one that will probably ruin their sense of fun in the face of more skillful opponents or challenging NPCs.
While some players are sighing in relief about the “low” number of skills in GW2, this is an illusion or an oversimplification, as many of the traits really do add an unparalleled level of depth to profession customization. That there is no one “right” answer for a profession, coupled with the fact that the “right traits and skills” would still require skillful and thoughtful use by the player, will only frustrate players more accustomed to traditional MMORPG gameplay conventions.

I bet all gamers will pick up on skill use very quickly and will perfect the use of them.

5. Players need validation.

In most MMOs it’s a simple matter to find one or two character builds that are optimal for the way the game is designed. In higher-level content, if a build can fulfill a role in a raid, and the raid succeeds, the build is successful, and the feedback is readily apparent. GW2’s reliance on player-skill and player-choice throws this system of evaluation out the window, and every request to evaluate a given build veils thinly the requestor’s doubts about having enough personal skill to succeed in spite of mistakes, oversights, and/or shortcomings at the trait and skill picking level. With player-skill being such an integral variable that many players won't honestly want to evaluate, validation will be difficult to come by.

I am sure people will adjust to this game very fast and love it and wonder what took so long to get a game this cool.

If people are willing to accept new changes in GW2, I think its going to be a smashing hit. At some point, there has to mmo that tries to differentiate standard EQ/WOW based system and you know what, Guild Wars decided to do that. 

EDIT: Changed Font and repost from Andre @SA forum

 

After reading this thread again I think you are being a bit contrary to your true feelings about the game. Everything you talk about are reason I pre-purchased the game.

Originally posted by pags411

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by pags411

Great post.  I agree with all of yours points.  It's interesting that some people feel the need to rebutt yours by pointing out that they are drawn to teh game for the reasons you listed.  That doesn't change the fact that the majority of players today will be pushed away.  Most of those players are on forums arguing with the majority that stats don't make you cooler.  It's a moot point.  It's like asserting that blue is a better color than red in a country whose national color is red.

I think the game will have a big uptake at first, and see a lot of growing pains/outcry against its design philosophy.  I am pretty sure we will hear these exact points coming from a position of complaint and worded differently.  This would possibly give the game bad publicity, and accelerate the process of it carving out a dedicated niche of gamers.  At the same time, I don't think anyone coming from a position similar to mine would be bothered by that.  A game doesn't have to be hugely successful for it to be fun (and it doesn't have to be fun to be hugely successful)!

To those saying that these reasons are reasons for them to play: that's great, and I feel the same way.  This post doesn't seem to be trying to convince you of what your preferences are in a game, though.  It's simply pointing to the obvious state of mainstream MMO communities today.  Frankly, it sounds like ArenaNet is intentionally navigating the market in a way to appeal specifically to those of us who yearn for a paradigm shift in MMO games.  I'm not saying it'll be the best thing in the world, but I do think that it has a shot of providing me with a game that seeks to take a different approach- an approach that I've been looking for in recent years.

Maybe, but I am not so sure that people play games like Wow just because it have the ultimate mechanics.

MMOs are about having a fun time, and Wow is a well made game (as is EQ) but that does not mean MMOs must be made just like it to have many players. People tend to assume that these mechanics are what make Wow so large but I think it is more about quality.

Just because I like drinking Guiness doesn´t mean I don't like a cold lager as well. If GW2 is fun to play it will be huge, and if it isn't nothing can save it no matter what mechanics it have. It is just that simple.

An apt analogy.  And I wholeheartedly agree with your stance on this game.  However, I feel as though we are not representative of the majority (which I think is the OPs point).  Let me rephrase your example to reflect what I think the OP is suggesting:

 

If you guzzle Coors Light exclusively, you will probably think Guiness is stupid for being so different from "beer" in your mind.

I'm a huge beer aficionado, btw (I live in CO for goodness sake!).  I see GW2 similarly to how I see a good brewery.  The majority of people are just looking to get trashed on yellow water.

 

 

I've always wondered how that's possible :).

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

 

So far they have failed to fail to meet any expectations they've been expected to meet. What they say is in the game is in the game. Besides, first hand experience is dramatically better than the word of mouth. With the caveat that I haven't played or tried Tera, this is the most fluidic combat system I've yet to experience. The absence of the trinity adds an entirely new level of dynamics that have to be experienced to appreciate. As much as I've enjoyed videos of the game even they pale in comparison to having your own go at it.

 

Friday comes. We'll see who has what to say.

What you've described is the typical enthusiasm most of us feel at an impending MMO launch.   The test will be....will you still feel that way after a month or two of playing?

Good post, i would venture to say that after two weeks many of these fanboi's will turn to flamers. It's the way of the MMO that has just launched. Feelings after beta mean nothing, it's after the official launch that we shall see how people feel.

Originally posted by Palladin

Originally posted by ictown

I'm confident that GW2 will be an excellent game and find a dedicated audience that will really enjoy it. I am not confident that GW2 will be a hit with more mainstream MMO players though, for the following reasons and these are the same reasons that is wrong with mmos today.

1. Players don’t want to look cool, they want to be cool.

Every time a player makes a choice based on a 1% dodge bonus, or wears stupid looking armor with great stats over visual aesthetics they are opting for substance over style. GW2 getting rid of these substantive differences between the races and high-level gear means that while a player may look cooler than another, they aren’t actually better than anyone else, and players will quickly realize it is a shallow system.

I disagree

I'd much rather look good while killing you in pvp. Performance should be character and player based not gear based except for looking dashing while dashing someone else.

2. Players want to be the best without actually being the best.

Players want an advantage over everyone else, especially if they can achieve that with mediocre ability spread out over countless hours of monotony that the next guy can’t or won’t invest; a weapon that provides both a stat advantage and exclusive access to a dungeon to get an increased advantage allows mediocre players to get better simply through willpower and time invested versus actual skill or growth. GW2 goes the opposite direction of this, so far as to de-level players going backward in content, almost negating in total what advances they attained through gear and stats alone to keep things interesting. When stats fail to make players better, most players will have nowhere to turn.

I disagree I will take my lumps and have fun doing it. It's a game and sometimes getting killed can be as funny as winning. So what if i am leveled down to the person i am attacking it just makes the fight that much more interesting.

3. When players can’t be the best they want somebody (preferably) or something else (works too) to blame instead of themselves.

Eventually things don’t work out as many players wish, and when that happens it’s easier to blame the healers or the tank, or the opposing faction, or the guildie who picked the dumbest class and is wasting a raid slot, etc. instead of doing a self-examination and figuring out how they can improve and then acting to do so. Considering that GW2 is more reliant on player-skill than any other MMO, and that professions are essentially jacks of all trades, finger-pointing will be awkward at best and accusations against balance issues or ad hominem attacks against ArenaNet just won’t work long-term for bad players.

I am sure all gamers know their limits and only rage once in a while.

4. Players don’t want to have to think, they just want to act.

Many MMOs cater to skill rotations, cool-down management, and provide high-reward abilities with no risks associated with their use. A perceived “I Win” button like Moa Morph that can actually miss is a foreign concept to many players, and one that will probably ruin their sense of fun in the face of more skillful opponents or challenging NPCs.
While some players are sighing in relief about the “low” number of skills in GW2, this is an illusion or an oversimplification, as many of the traits really do add an unparalleled level of depth to profession customization. That there is no one “right” answer for a profession, coupled with the fact that the “right traits and skills” would still require skillful and thoughtful use by the player, will only frustrate players more accustomed to traditional MMORPG gameplay conventions.

I bet all gamers will pick up on skill use very quickly and will perfect the use of them.

5. Players need validation.

In most MMOs it’s a simple matter to find one or two character builds that are optimal for the way the game is designed. In higher-level content, if a build can fulfill a role in a raid, and the raid succeeds, the build is successful, and the feedback is readily apparent. GW2’s reliance on player-skill and player-choice throws this system of evaluation out the window, and every request to evaluate a given build veils thinly the requestor’s doubts about having enough personal skill to succeed in spite of mistakes, oversights, and/or shortcomings at the trait and skill picking level. With player-skill being such an integral variable that many players won't honestly want to evaluate, validation will be difficult to come by.

I am sure people will adjust to this game very fast and love it and wonder what took so long to get a game this cool.

If people are willing to accept new changes in GW2, I think its going to be a smashing hit. At some point, there has to mmo that tries to differentiate standard EQ/WOW based system and you know what, Guild Wars decided to do that. 

EDIT: Changed Font and repost from Andre @SA forum

 

After reading this thread again I think you are being a bit contrary to your true feelings about the game. Everything you talk about are reason I pre-purchased the game.

 

He said that the average player has certain preferences, and you refute those statements by saying that you're not the average player.  Maybe he wasn't referring to you?  If you really are the player you describe yourself as in this post, you must be reading his points and thinking of countless situations where you've aruged with some anonymous gamer about these very preferences.  Are you saying that you don't think the majority of mainstream MMO players today are seeking trivial time sinks and character progression tail-chases?  From my perspective, it just sounds like you're taking his points about the general community as being directed towards you.  I can't think of another reason you would make counterpoints about yourself.  If his points don't apply to you, you're precluded from hsi characterization of the average MMO player.  I think you'd agree.

There is no such thing as "the average MMO player" anymore.

If that's the case, you should probably let the marketing departments of every majorly publicized MMO since WoW know that they have no target demographic.  They probably want to know so they can go home.

On the contrary, I would argue that "average" makes more sense in this genre now than it ever has.  When the market was niche, the players participating in these games comprised a much narrower scope of gamer.  I'm not saying we were all the same, but there were fewer products and less diversity.  The average of a data set consisting entirely of the numbers 1, 2 and 3 can be easily guessed by anyone and be accurate within +/-2. 

With the expanded market, you have much more variety in the people playing these games.  Look at WoW.  I'll never forget seeing a commercial for WoW for the first time.  Coming from DAoC after several years, I was flabbergasted upon viewing this apparently popular culture concept of an MMO.  I'm not commenting on whether I feel it's good or bad, but you have to acknowledge that today anyone could be playing an MMO.  Your girlfriend, your father, you teacher, you favorite team's quarterback, etc.  Average is definitely an important notion in the MMO industry today more than ever.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by Volkon

 

So far they have failed to fail to meet any expectations they've been expected to meet. What they say is in the game is in the game. Besides, first hand experience is dramatically better than the word of mouth. With the caveat that I haven't played or tried Tera, this is the most fluidic combat system I've yet to experience. The absence of the trinity adds an entirely new level of dynamics that have to be experienced to appreciate. As much as I've enjoyed videos of the game even they pale in comparison to having your own go at it.

 

Friday comes. We'll see who has what to say.

What you've described is the typical enthusiasm most of us feel at an impending MMO launch.   The test will be....will you still feel that way after a month or two of playing?

Before you read this, please don't take offense to it or assume i'm attacking you.

What i see wrong with gamers or games, is look at your sig.

34 games played, DAM thats a lot.

That tells me more people have less of an attention span for games. Which is understandable. But what is causing that?

Me i have 2 games i always fall back to, DAoC and WAR. It has good PvP, both have similar but different play styles. Anyways...

I've tried Rift, Pre-ordered it, didn't like it. Whatever. I've played AoC, didn't like it. Whatever. I beta'd TERA, didn't like it. Whatever. My point being, is it us as gamers? Or is it the game developers?

Is it us telling ourselves how good it is going to be?

Or is it the companies saying they will be so much different but in reality they aren't?

I think it is both to be honest. With making a themepark game, what all can we REALLY change?

We will always have classes, traits, skills, armor, levels, mobs, quests, kill quests, travel quests, dungeons, bosses, the list goes on. and on. and on. you get my point :)

What can we really change about that? GW2 still has all of these, as does TERA. We want to think that the combat is different and more "actiony" but the quests are the same. Clouded by the words "dynamic" and "BAMs?" (TERAs quest thingy). But really how much different are they? How much can we really change in a Themepark?

Seems to me people want a Sandbox game with a themepark feel.

I think we as gamers have come to expect to much change. Sure change is nice, a different lore and setting and classes, but that is kind of superficial. The CORE elements of games can't really change that much. Everyone wants character progression. and so many want that with their own personal story line, but they don't want kill x mobs.

I know this kind of turned into a rant but is my point clear? Everygame will hook some people no doubt, but with so many games, and so many games played, i don't think any one game will claim superiority like WoW did, and like what so many people want to wish their game does.

So what the OP wants is a mind numbing, enlessly boring and under developed, number game? That's basically what most MMO's today are. It's "I've got 500 attack damage. I know i can beat this guy because he only has 400 attack damage." or "I know i can beat him because my weapon is from this dungeon. and I have a full set of pvp armor while he is still missing a piece." All a number game. It's not do you have the skills to beat the enemy, its do you have the proper numbers to accomodate the situation.

If that is what you enjoy then WoW may be the best option and the ost stable option. It has everything that you seem to be looking for. GW2 is different; what everyone is looking for. We'll enjoy the fact that we wont have to deal with mindless idiots in awesome gear who can dominate because of their gear and nothing more.

I played aion since release and it absolutely blew my mind the number of players who literally had were so terribly unskilled but were winning one on one fights because their armor, weapons, mana stones, and godstones allowed them to drop player HP to 0 in less than three hits. If killing a player in 2 hits because your attack damage allows you to do so is skill to you...then GW2 is not the game you should be playing.

Player skill always important and should be in every game..but that hasn't been the case with recent titles. But guild wars 2 dares to be different.

Did you even read the body of the post?  The very first thing he says is that he thinks this will be a great game. 

One has to wonder what your mind is perceiving and responding to when nothing in the post suggests that he personally has the feelings he's describing in this thread.  Project anger much?

And if you think GW2 is the game everyone wants, you're only weakening your post credibility by saying outlandish things.  No rational person would ever think any game is the alpha and omega for every type of player.  I mean, you blatantly contradict the spirit of your entire post with that one line.  Your whole argument is that the OP must be like the other people who want dumbed down games like WoW, and then you say that GW2 is the game for everyone.  You must see that these are mutually exclusive assertions.

Originally posted by Distopia

WIth all due respect, Ilum was in TOR but did it work out for it? I could cite quite a few examples like that. In the game doesn't mean much until it's withstood the test of time.  

I'm glad you bring up Ilium and its failure. In retrospect, the writing was always on the wall and there was very little emphasis on open world PVP by BW before release. We had this hazy idea that Ilium would be like a WOW warfront but there certainly was never anything about it emphasized nor were there claims made about any new pvp ideas.

Contrast that to what we already know about WvWvW, the number of unique new ideas like the 2-week long persistent battles, castle attacks and defense with equipment you build and add all the references made by GW devs to their fond memories of DAoC RvR.

It's obvious to me that regardless of how this turns out, GW2 is trying to be the spiritual successor to DAoC and a lot of time and effort is aimed at making that happen. I don't even have to play it to know that this means a heck of a lot more to this group of devs than Ilium ever did to BW.

There's a whole lot of us who are bored with raiding or scenario PVP and their associated gear grinds. Open world PvP is its own fun and making my server come out on top is all the motivation I need.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Volkon

 

So far they have failed to fail to meet any expectations they've been expected to meet. What they say is in the game is in the game. Besides, first hand experience is dramatically better than the word of mouth. With the caveat that I haven't played or tried Tera, this is the most fluidic combat system I've yet to experience. The absence of the trinity adds an entirely new level of dynamics that have to be experienced to appreciate. As much as I've enjoyed videos of the game even they pale in comparison to having your own go at it.

 

Friday comes. We'll see who has what to say.

WIth all due respect, Ilum was in TOR but did it work out for it? I could cite quite a few examples like that. In the game doesn't mean much until it's withstood the test of time. I don't doubt GW2 will be a decent game, but that doesn't mean everything about it will be, and that's really the key. As that will decide what "honest" feedback is like after launch, I say honest because we all know not all feedback will be (positive or negative).

Friday through monday also doesn't mean much in the big picture. It will still be new and shiny at that point, so most feedback will be shiny.

 

What does Ilum have to do with GW2? WvW is a completely different animal. What a strange comparison.

But  yeah, most of the feedback should indeed be shiny.

Originally posted by pags411

Did you even read the body of the post?  The very first thing he says is that he thinks this will be a great game. 

 

One has to wonder what your mind is perceiving and responding to when nothing in the post suggests that he personally has the feelings he's describing in this thread.  Project anger much?

 

And if you think GW2 is the game everyone wants, you're only weakening your post credibility by saying outlandish things.  No rational person would ever think any game is the alpha and omega for every type of player.  I mean, you blatantly contradict the spirit of your entire post with that one line.  Your whole argument is that the OP must be like the other people who want dumbed down games like WoW, and then you say that GW2 is the game for everyone.  You must see that these are mutually exclusive assertions.

I think you're misunderstanding my purpose, here. Now, I will step back and admit that saying "everyone" maybe be a bit of an oversight, but It is a vast majority. I merely pointed out that the OP was attempting to generalize the entire market as mindless zombies who want nothing more than to add up their numbers. He does, however, agree that the game will be a phenominal achievement for Arenanet and that it will do well within its bounds. But I also think he is grossly miscalculating the games projected success by injecting his personal experiences into the petri dish and assimilating it into the masses. It's like saying "That Italian resteraunt will be a flop because I don't like pasta, and I'm allergic to garlic." Granted there is no SOLID evidence of him being 'self-sentered' as many others have labeled him, but from what he is saying that is the case. Feel free to take a mass consensus of player projections of GW2's success and see what they think, or take a consensus of their play styles and MMO experiences and see how they differ or compare to the OP's post. But from everyone that I have asked ( and I've inquired quite a few people about how they play and what they find fun and generally whether they will enjoy GW2) and most opinions were in opposition to the OP's.

So am I wrong or right, no one can say; It's an opinion...But whether or not either of us is justified...now that can be argued.

Originally posted by Mythios11

Originally posted by darkehawke

everything in the op is reasons why i want to play this game!

This is the official GW2 fanboi rebuttal to anyone who criticizes the game.   I think ArenaNet should market this on a T-shirt or something.  

ok so i'm not allowed an opinion?

how was what i said a rebuttal. have i told the OP he's wrong?

Man some people on these forums need to untwist their panties

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Mythios11

Originally posted by darkehawke

everything in the op is reasons why i want to play this game!

This is the official GW2 fanboi rebuttal to anyone who criticizes the game.   I think ArenaNet should market this on a T-shirt or something.  

ok so i'm not allowed an opinion?

how was what i said a rebuttal. have i told the OP he's wrong?

Man some people on these forums need to untwist their panties

It is my sworn duty to untwist the panties of the internet!

I believe this thread has reached Maximum Neckbeardian. It should be locked since it is now nothing more than a trollfest that neither adds to nor informs anyone.

I think the thing that people find insulting, and a little condosending, is that the OP takes a superior position by associating himself with "mainstream MMO players".  It's a flaming statement.  

I get the OP's statement. If you can't figure out a way to be more uber than the next player, there is no reason to play a game. 

That is cool, I look at that as a culture that developed as MMOs began marketing to players who hate role playing games.  So they made them competitive "show me yours" competitions that many have had to settle for. 

I'd like to think that with the millions of players who 1. play mmos and spend more time playing single player rpgs and 2. people who left mmos because of the staleness of the current system, the OPs thesis will be proven incorrect.  

If the OP's thesis is correct, I feel bad for the future of role playing games.  Essentially,  the adventure, story and game play are not important, waht is important is if you can get higher stats than the other guys.   I dont know any other game genre that works like this.  

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by grimal
 

Before you read this, please don't take offense to it or assume i'm attacking you.

What i see wrong with gamers or games, is look at your sig.

34 games played, DAM thats a lot.

That tells me more people have less of an attention span for games. Which is understandable. But what is causing that?

34 MMOs I have played over the span of 14 years.  Ummm....how does that show a low attention span?  As I have stated in a previous post of mine, I like to try as many MMOs as I can.  I can't say I have ever regretted playing any of them...some I've played more than others, some less.

But that's besides the point.  The point I was making was that the poster before me was describing that sense of excitement I (and others, judging from forums) have felt over and over for many past MMO launches...this "feeling" does not necessarily guarantee a game's quality or replayability.

The problem I have with posts like yours (no offense intended) is that instead of actually responding to my post you use it to make some pseudo-intellectual comment on the state of gaming.

I don't take offense to your statement, but please use someone else as a platform for your soap box.