First, let me say i did enjoy my time in BETA and the last 5 months playing Class Quests.

However, this game cost millions of dollars and is considered AAA Title, yet "re-uses" interiors of building the same way non AAA titles do.

Another thing, once you get to 50 the game is designed with a priority of keeping you playing by GRINDING.

Instead of FUN being the priority.

Also, with each patch and upgrade there is yet another fiasco where the patch or upgrade breaks the game, causes roll backs, and then the roll backs fail.

its one big mess not worthy of AAA titles.

Finally, just to give you an example of the poor design of SWTOR....lets say for example you are a Sith Warrior Juggernaut. In the past 5 months you had to re-prioritize yoru main stat beacause game updates would change your class and thus mandate what stat is now your priority and all that hard earned gear is mostly worthless, cuz u need to find gear with the new priority stat.

Furthermore, most gear never gives you the stats you need, because just as an example with Juggernaut gear it keeps forcing accuracy down your throat! LOL

The last straw was increasing ranged classes damage 5%....increasing damage on an already OP class is fail and demonstrates the devs have no clue.

I fear, WoW will be living far longer and prospering long after SWTOR dies.

I have a feeling that swtor will go free to play by the end of the year and hang around for a long time with a low sub base.  The reason why is the same reason swg stayed around for years after the nge.  Folks played it because it was "star wars"

Now I got to figure out where to go as I am not staying, after my 6 month sub expires.  Going back to soe is out of the questions.  I tried the beta for tera and hated it, I want to try diablo 3 and despite my hate for ncsoft over the tabula rasa debacle I might consider gw2.

I agree with your assertions, but as an independent developer I have some questions.  By "re-uses" interiors of building I assume you mean floor plans or level design right?  Seen it before you can walk it with your eyes closed?  Or a sudden feeling you are two quest back in a previous building?  Or are you just talking Wall Textures, Tables Chairs, and Boxes "Decorating" the rooms?

The End Game Armour Set Loot Drop Grind is an established and proven that provides a challenging task , and a sense of accomplishment and reward.  Are the end game task either not challenging, not numerous, not varied , or other?

How about this idea for end game?  The quest worlds become phased PvP battlegrounds?  Phased so that a Maxed Level PvPer doesn't interfere with a level 9 player doing a PvE Quest on the same planet or in the same building.  Either by in game mail or quest dialog a planet is selected, say Dromund Kaas.  Six Objects ( Datacrons ) randomly spawn.  The defenders either are or aren't told of their locations and are assigned to defend the planet and the Six Objects.  The attackers are given 3 Random Spawn locations, they can capture and hold additional sites.  They don't know where the six objects are but they can find clues or just randomly search.

Ok, its just capture the flag, and its the same planets you have been to during leveling up.  But now, these worlds are huge open battlegrounds.  Maybe They throw in some really big Boss fights as well.  True it's the same old map, but now it's crawling with invaders.  What is offered for participation?  PvP ladders for all aspects of PvP.  Commendations for use in Specialty stores.  Maybe even some Crafting thrown in.

I don't understand you comment on "re-prioritize your main stat "?  I mainly played a Command and a Sorc, aren't the stats on a Juggernaut Endurance and Strength?  Are you talking 50/50 vs 60/40?  I didn't know "accuracy" was a tanking attribute, sounds like a DPS attribute.

Truth is SWTOR is what you get with a massive media/advertisement budget and little/no MMO building experience.

My only truth is that I managed to get 2 to 3 months entertainment out from this title and it was exactly what I was expecting to get. I am glad that more games come out in shorter intervals, so do not have to keep playing the same ones for years.

I might revisit the game once they release an expansion pack.

Originally posted by thexrated

My only truth is that I managed to get 2 to 3 months entertainment out from this title and it was exactly what I was expecting to get. I am glad that more games come out in shorter intervals, so do not have to keep playing the same ones for years.

I might revisit the game once they release an expansion pack.

I think we all enjoy a easy to get in and easy to get out game once in awhile, but I doubt with this large of a budget spent that the makers of SWTOR wanted this kind of reaction. They based themselves off of their subscription and they need to pay royalties.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

First, let me say i did enjoy my time in BETA and the last 5 months playing Class Quests.

However, this game cost millions of dollars and is considered AAA Title, yet "re-uses" interiors of building the same way non AAA titles do.

Another thing, once you get to 50 the game is designed with a priority of keeping you playing by GRINDING.

Instead of FUN being the priority.

Also, with each patch and upgrade there is yet another fiasco where the patch or upgrade breaks the game, causes roll backs, and then the roll backs fail.

its one big mess not worthy of AAA titles.

Finally, just to give you an example of the poor design of SWTOR....lets say for example you are a Sith Warrior Juggernaut. In the past 5 months you had to re-prioritize yoru main stat beacause game updates would change your class and thus mandate what stat is now your priority and all that hard earned gear is mostly worthless, cuz u need to find gear with the new priority stat.

Furthermore, most gear never gives you the stats you need, because just as an example with Juggernaut gear it keeps forcing accuracy down your throat! LOL

The last straw was increasing ranged classes damage 5%....increasing damage on an already OP class is fail and demonstrates the devs have no clue.

I fear, WoW will be living far longer and prospering long after SWTOR dies.

You should have titled this thread MY problem and the TRUTH as I see it about SWTOR because nothing you say is factual just how you see it.

I don't recall the interiors of the buildings being the exact same like they are in say STO (that is a game that constantly uses the exact same caves,buildings, etc.).

And changes to how classes work? Almost all mmorpg's go through balancing changes and I find it odd to complain about something that really has little to no effect, any class that gets changes get's skill points re issued for free.

Maybe I'm missing something because I didn't notice that the stat considered primary for any class was changed to another primary stat.

And quest rewards are pretty much in line with what you actually need for that particular class, maybe you are talking about random drops? But I'd be hard pressed to think of a single game that tailors random drops to the specific needs of that particular build (though I can admit I have been frustrated to get an orange drop only to learn it was made with stats me nor any companions could use) but again that's no different than any mmorpg I've ever played.

Where is the consensus that ranged classes are overpowered? Maybe it's a pvp thing and it's why this is the first time I've ever heard one single person make that claim *shrug*.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

First, let me say i did enjoy my time in BETA and the last 5 months playing Class Quests.

---

Originally posted by Mckiediz
 

I stopped here. You played 5 months without playing with a guild or without experiencing what it is to invest several time and effort in group oriented contents. And you are talking about MMOs!!? Really?!

The truth is you don't know waht a MMO is about or you don't have friends to play with.

---

Hard to play with a guild when everyone is deserting. Besides OP isnt talking about the community of the game, hes talking about the gameplay itself. You know, they parts that he played. The game istelf isnt bad. Until you reach the end of it. Then its not really a game anymore. Even if you have a wonderfully awesome guild. Does not make a difference.

Originally posted by Konfess

I agree with your assertions, but as an independent developer I have some questions.  By "re-uses" interiors of building I assume you mean floor plans or level design right?  Seen it before you can walk it with your eyes closed?  Or a sudden feeling you are two quest back in a previous building?  Or are you just talking Wall Textures, Tables Chairs, and Boxes "Decorating" the rooms?

The End Game Armour Set Loot Drop Grind is an established and proven that provides a challenging task , and a sense of accomplishment and reward.  Are the end game task either not challenging, not numerous, not varied , or other?

How about this idea for end game?  The quest worlds become phased PvP battlegrounds?  Phased so that a Maxed Level PvPer doesn't interfere with a level 9 player doing a PvE Quest on the same planet or in the same building.  Either by in game mail or quest dialog a planet is selected, say Dromund Kaas.  Six Objects ( Datacrons ) randomly spawn.  The defenders either are or aren't told of their locations and are assigned to defend the planet and the Six Objects.  The attackers are given 3 Random Spawn locations, they can capture and hold additional sites.  They don't know where the six objects are but they can find clues or just randomly search.

Ok, its just capture the flag, and its the same planets you have been to during leveling up.  But now, these worlds are huge open battlegrounds.  Maybe They throw in some really big Boss fights as well.  True it's the same old map, but now it's crawling with invaders.  What is offered for participation?  PvP ladders for all aspects of PvP.  Commendations for use in Specialty stores.  Maybe even some Crafting thrown in.

I don't understand you comment on "re-prioritize your main stat "?  I mainly played a Command and a Sorc, aren't the stats on a Juggernaut Endurance and Strength?  Are you talking 50/50 vs 60/40?  I didn't know "accuracy" was a tanking attribute, sounds like a DPS attribute.

They reuse whole areas. Like: ummm, am i in the right place since its SAME place as last quests. I kinda had DA2/ME2 feeling. And trust me, i checked pretty much every nook and cranny and have written few gguides for my guild where to find certain stuff. Its very cheapo. Unfortunately for me quality>quantity.

Classic endgame grind is (has been) proven only as failure. It worked partially for 1 game and failed in myriad of games that copied it.

....

Tanks particularly had troubles with stats. And yah, accuracy and their whole reasoning behind various stats is laughable.

The problem for me is that I rolled on a high population PvP server and I encountered an enemy player a whopping 2x in the course of leveling to 50.  Don't get me wrong I came to the game to just check out the story and I knew open world pvp wasn't happening, but it was even worse than I thought. 

What really sucks is that the combat system and the availability of so many instant abilities allows for some fun, fluid, constantly on the move, combat......but it never happens outside of an instanced Warfront.  After I attempted to level through pvp on another character I got to 25 and called it a day.

None of this is really a surprise to me though.  I knew it going in.  So I feel like I still got my money's worth.

Originally posted by erictlewis

I have a feeling that swtor will go free to play by the end of the year and hang around for a long time with a low sub base.  The reason why is the same reason swg stayed around for years after the nge.  Folks played it because it was "star wars"

Now I got to figure out where to go as I am not staying, after my 6 month sub expires.  Going back to soe is out of the questions.  I tried the beta for tera and hated it, I want to try diablo 3 and despite my hate for ncsoft over the tabula rasa debacle I might consider gw2.

 

EA dont do free

It will be sub + pay to win cash shop + loads of stupid vanity pets + paid for micro "expansions".   Just like WAR.

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

First, let me say i did enjoy my time in BETA and the last 5 months playing Class Quests.

However, this game cost millions of dollars and is considered AAA Title, yet "re-uses" interiors of building the same way non AAA titles do.

(...)

That's a Bioware thing. They always re-use same interior over and over. That was my only complain about BW since Baldur's Gate.

Originally posted by Mckiediz

Originally posted by UnleadedRev

First, let me say i did enjoy my time in BETA and the last 5 months playing Class Quests.

 

I stopped here. You played 5 months without playing with a guild or without experiencing what it is to invest several time and effort in group oriented contents. And you are talking about MMOs!!? Really?! The truth is you don't know waht a MMO is about or you don't have friends to play with.

That's a pretty weak argument.  If you've played other MMOs in addition to TOR and you read his entire post, there's really nothing you can say that undermines his points.  The game is just lackluster and underwhelming in literally every aspect.  It's technically clumsy, and it's content is shallow and derivative.  Not only does it not facilitate the very social aspect of MMOs you describe in your response, but it puts in place a number of barriers to prevent community-building.

He's right, the game has 1 cave model and several building interior models.  Most of them aren't even colored differently.  It takes away from immersion and feels cheap. For a game that spent so much money and time on voice acting, it seems hilariously disproportionate to the amount of resources and time allocated to the actual game environment.

He didn't say that he didn't join a guild.  I was in a fairly large and active guild, and it made no difference.  People would log in to do some dailies and maybe run a heroic.  Operations provided little challenge outside of bug testing (which was a big challenge!).  PvP was given a half-assed implementation.  After a few weeks at the level cap you've experienced all the end game content and acquired most of the rewards.

You didn't need to invest time OR effort in group oriented content.  Heroics were identical to their normal difficulty counterparts with the completely uninspired enrage mechanic serving as a hard DPS check and being the one difference between the 2 modes.  You can't queue for premade WZs with more than half of a team.  Crew Skills were entirely self-sufficient (and ultimately pointless at the level cap) and provided no incentive to barter or trade with other crafters.  The entire game is instanced to the point where there is not actual travel aside from several taxi routes on a planet.  Because the game is entirely instanced, there are no broadcast channels that overlap in an large enough scope to make communication for finding group content extremely difficult or fractured (this is exacerbated by the lack of any LFG functionality).

You only read a part of the original post and then responded by describing an experience that isn't even feasible within the game as it's currently designed.  I'm not saying that this game is bad for you, I'm just saying it's objectively a bad product from any perspective.  You tell us (and I promise I'll read the whole thing before responding) what you do in this game that provides experiences contrary to what the OP describes.  I'm genuinely curious.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by erictlewis

I have a feeling that swtor will go free to play by the end of the year and hang around for a long time with a low sub base.  The reason why is the same reason swg stayed around for years after the nge.  Folks played it because it was "star wars"

Now I got to figure out where to go as I am not staying, after my 6 month sub expires.  Going back to soe is out of the questions.  I tried the beta for tera and hated it, I want to try diablo 3 and despite my hate for ncsoft over the tabula rasa debacle I might consider gw2.

 

EA dont do free

It will be sub + pay to win cash shop + loads of stupid vanity pets + paid for micro "expansions".   Just like WAR.

You're right EA doesn't do free so their cash  shop might wind up that way.  They'll definitely go F2P though.  F2P makes 4-6x MORE revenue as any one out there with subs right now.  In fact, I was talking to some people at Turbine while at PAX and I was told that these companies are actually getting MORE subs when they're optional then when the game requires a sub to play.  This is from the guy that is responsible for taking LOTRO and DDO F2P btw and he made Earth and Beyond (hell yeah!). 

Anyway long story short, EVERY single MMO will eventually be F2P or go bust - Rift, SWTOR, you name it.  F2P is here to stay and it has proven itself to be the more financially lucrative model.  The sub model is dead, dying, whatever....because it's just not going to give you as good of a return and it creates a huge barrier of entry to anyone that wants to play your game.  I'm not saying you'll never see it again, but SWTOR was probably the last big budget game to give it a shot.  It's a proven failure at this point (IMO).  The whole F2P vs Subs is almost not even a discussion or argument at this point, but an already decided conclusion in favor of F2P.

Normally free trials offered to people who have never played the game ='s advertising, but giving away free subs to ACTIVE accounts is just begging people to stick around.  The writing's clearly on the wall for them.

Do people even understand what grinding means in an MMO?

Killing the same monsters over and over again. That's grinding. Not doing quests, not raiding, not pvping. Killing the same monsters over and over again. As soon as someone refers to anything in a modern MMO as "grinding", I immediately know they have no clue what they're talking about.

Another doom and gloom thread about this game.  Are these posts ever going to end?  Or will people eventually move on?  What is it about SW MMOs.  The minute someone finds something they dislike (be it SWTOR or SWG) they dedicate their entire life to complaining about it on the forums.

Jesus, we still see posts complaing about the NGE...get over it folks!

Originally posted by grimal

Another doom and gloom thread about this game.  Are these posts ever going to end?  Or will people eventually move on?  What is it about SW MMOs.  The minute someone finds something they dislike (be it SWTOR or SWG) they dedicate their entire life to complaining about it on the forums.

Jesus, we still see posts complaing about the NGE...get over it folks!

 I don't think most people are expressing doom and gloom for SWTOR's future which would likely be a shutdown of the game.  I think most people just think it will go F2P, which is probably true.  That's not a bad thing either, it's just a business model, so it's all about how they implement it.

Originally posted by rygard49

Do people even understand what grinding means in an MMO?

Killing the same monsters over and over again. That's grinding. Not doing quests, not raiding, not pvping. Killing the same monsters over and over again. As soon as someone refers to anything in a modern MMO as "grinding", I immediately know they have no clue what they're talking about.

That's a very limited definition. Other people think it means doing the same kind of thing over and over again - the same kind of boring mission in the same kind of boring landscape.