Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

Originally posted by Emwyn

a pvp centric sandbox? Fight over resources? Fight to maintain your player built villages? If you lose, you have to found another and the victor gets the spoils of war. For victories sake I suppose or for the spoils or maybe the area they just aquired is very useful for other aspects of some game element. I don't know, kind of a blank slate to go on here. No idea what's available in this sandbox :D

I give the above examples because these can be ever changing, ever evolving situations that affect the game world or an area of the game world.

Those are good examples of sandbox play, but still all of them are based around fighting over wealth/power. Is there any other way to create conflict?

Then life and death is a good reason to keep playing but that would perhaps require permadeath and quite frankly that could get boring with nothing else. To live for the sake of living and no other reason? Not so sure. Assuming you are still wanting a pvp centric game. Other then that I cannot think of anything except politics, which isn't always about personal power, it reflects on everyday  life, ideals, goals as a society and so on.

Originally posted by BartDaCat

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

Originally posted by Torgrim

I hate the word endgame.

Its either game over or continue.

I guess I used "endgame" for familiarity. So.... How could you make it continue? Make the game over come later, at least.

If I were playing a "sandbox" MMORPG, I'd want it to have multiple options for highly skilled users.

Random Generated Raids by NPC Hordes:

• Similar to DAoC's PvE-servers and RIFT's invasions, have masses of game-generated NPC antagonists spawn in raid formations, and attack nearby cities and townships.  Make these invasions lucrative, so that participants are rewarded for participating with rare weapons, armor, and other goods worthy of long-term usage.

High-Difficulty Zones with Lairs and Random "Elite" Creature Packs:

• For those that played DAoC, there were high-level zones in each realm for PvE players.  I played Albion in DAoC, so our zone was Dartmoor.  The random elite creatures roaming the zone were challenging, and they dropped rare weapons and armor at least 90% of the time, usually with some fun particle effects emitting from them.  This was a boon for crafters, because they could salvage these items for incredibly valuable and rare materials.

Remote Zones for Gathering Rare/Precious Resources for Various Crafting Professions:

• Part of what I loved about the Ultima series, both in its single-player AND multiplayer incarnations, were the rare resources that you could only gather in certain areas, and at specific times.  We've seen something similar to this in other MMOs, but the execution is usually poor, and the areas are usually overrun by gold farmers. 

 

• It would be desirable to make these areas exceptionally challenging, exceptionally rewarding, and accessible only to those that fight off the random creatures guarding those resources.  In other words, the resource nodes should be directly linked to the creatures guarding them, and they should only be made available to the player that "tapped" the creatures, thus avoiding potential "ninjas". 

 

• It could be in the form of resource stations like ore mines, lumber mills, "abandoned" farms, strange pools of water, menacing schools of fish, etc.  Each resource station could spawn one or more waves of creatures, and depending on the number of waves, the difficulty of the creatures, and the user's skill level, the resources yielded could range from mediocre to exceptional.  A good example of these types of resource stations might be RIFT's crafting rifts, or resources similar to some of the more popular RTS games.

Advanced Player-Made/Tamed Transportation:

• The types of transportation required would depend on the types of geographical variance the game offers.  If there are floating islands in the sky, remote islands far out at sea, caves off-set high on a mountain peak, or all of the above.  New tiers of in-game transportation could address each of these challenges in order of difficulty, starting with something easy like riding a horse, and advancing to sea-bound trading ships and airships for those skyward destinations.

 

• Perhaps there can be tamable mounts (ala UO), with various mounts capable of traveling in different environmental climes, with corresponding resistances, such as a lava lizard that can walk across fire and molten eart, able to venture deep into the core of the world.

Advanced Personal Housing Options:

• Players can start with basic cabins, huts, large tents, or some other simplified form of lodging, but as the player progresses in skill levels and/or gains wealth, they can construct, or have constructed, larger more grandiose lodgings such as castles, forts, and small villages with their own guards, crafting/trading stations, etc.

Community-Developed Townships/Cities:

• Like-minded players can team up to form villages or cities beyond the pre-established townships and fortresses already offered in the game.  They can start shops, crafting stations, stables, armories, magic schools, etc.  As these townships evolve, they can become more fortified against attack, spawn stronger guards, and offer more resources, such as airship landings and portals to other dimensions (for expanded game worlds).

Game Master/Developer-Generated Seasonal (real-life and in-game season) Events:

• Throughout the calendar year, and maybe even the in-game calendar year, if it differs greatly (depending on the game design), there can be pre-scheduled events that offer new challenges, season-related rewards, and perks for those that take participation to new levels, such as townships that thoroughly decorate their streets with seasonal decor, and come up with their own original ways to celebrate the event.

 

These are just a few ideas.  Almost none of them are new, but some of them are fondly remembered features from other MMORPGs, some "sandbox", some not.

I think there are a lot of ideas that a good "sandbox" MMORPG could borrow from other games, and still be highly favored by the gaming community.

EVE has, or has had, all of these.

Random Generated Raids by NPC Hordes:

• EvE :sansha invazions

High-Difficulty Zones with Lairs and Random "Elite" Creature Packs:

• EvE : Wormhole space

Remote Zones for Gathering Rare/Precious Resources for Various Crafting Professions:

• EvE : planets and moons. 

 

Advanced Player-Made/Tamed Transportation:

• EvE : jump freighters , titan bridges , open 0.0 stations , etc

 

Advanced Personal Housing Options:

• EvE : stations , POS , etc

Community-Developed Townships/Cities:

• EvE 0.0 space , thousand of systems to fight over , build infrastructure in , live in , upgrade or burn down to ashes

Game Master/Developer-Generated Seasonal (real-life and in-game season) Events:

• EvE : well...it`s allways winter in space

 

 

 

EVE has, or has had, all of these.

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

What could be added to EVE that doesn't involve the neverending struggle for domination and power between alliances that would make it an even greater MMO? That's the question I'm asking.

More cooperative PvE content that is cut off from PvP.

As long as EVE allows PvP to happen everywhere, it will be limited to 'the neverending struggle for domination and power'.   People who just want to create stuff are not going to be inclined to play a game where all you accomplished can be destroyed by someone who is merely better at PvP combat. 

EVE could add features where you can build entire civilizations in space but there is little point where this will just be ground down to nothing by bored PvPers.

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Originally posted by LEmmopeasant
 
It's like... how can that sandbox endgame be expanded on?

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Your question, and whole thread, makes no sense. There is no endgame in sandbox as there is no linearity - start -> end route.

Maybe rephrase your post to better clarify your point?

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by LEmmopeasant
 
It's like... how can that sandbox endgame be expanded on?

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Your question, and whole thread, makes no sense. There is no endgame in sandbox as there is no linearity - start -> end route.

 

Maybe rephrase your post to better clarify your point?

In practical terms I view a game's 'endgame' as the aspect of the game that the devs promote over any others once a game has matured.  It is the are of the game that the devs want to funnel the players into due to 'vision' or simply because it is the most cost-efficient area to develop content for. 

For WoW the raids are the endgame that's the only real area that Blizzard develops stuff for after an expansion has come out.  For pre-NGE SWG the endgame was supposed to be the Galactic Civil War but got switched over to the Jedi holo grind.  For A Tale in the Desert the endgame is completing the tests once the population is done researching the technologies.  For EVE the endgame for most of its history was the 0.0 wars but lately it has been diversifing into wormholes and faction PvP.

Originally posted by helthros

Doesn't seem like you grasp the idea of a sandbox. It's never been about maxing out your character, it's about the overlooming narative of the game. This is written by the actions other people in the game are making. That's the point of a sandbox, the interactions between players. It's not about maxing out your character.

Ah, the blessing and the curse of sandbox games.

My definition of sandbox game: a narrative based game that has no accessible narrative until you become socially important. Or you can make stuff.

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Originally posted by Torik

In practical terms I view a game's 'endgame' as the aspect of the game that the devs promote over any others once a game has matured.  It is the are of the game that the devs want to funnel the players into due to 'vision' or simply because it is the most cost-efficient area to develop content for. 
For WoW the raids are the endgame that's the only real area that Blizzard develops stuff for after an expansion has come out.  For pre-NGE SWG the endgame was supposed to be the Galactic Civil War but got switched over to the Jedi holo grind.  For A Tale in the Desert the endgame is completing the tests once the population is done researching the technologies.  For EVE the endgame for most of its history was the 0.0 wars but lately it has been diversifing into wormholes and faction PvP.

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Erm, no.

WoW adds content for max levels because that is where the game leads you by design - it is based on linear progression.

Nothing like that applies in EVE. 0.0 in EVE is not an endgame by any means. Null sec and High sec are both are equal parts of the game, there is no determined progression between those two.

You can spend your whole game time in one or another, or migrate between those two. There is no design leads making you follow any determined way.

WoW expands vertically - it adds content along progression line. EVE on the other hand expands horizontally - it adds stuff you can do any time.

Originally posted by Suraknar

Is there an endgame to RL?

Likewise there is no endgame in a Sandbox game, it is open ended gameplay.

The best way to understand it is to experience it.

Some people believe their deity gives them a cheat code for eternal life.

The rest of us will become player housing for worms.

Originally posted by Emwyn

surely sandbox endgame is the point you grow bored of doing whatever it is you are doing. Or maybe another game catches your eye that you think you might enjoy even more so you change games. There that's endgame for you for the sandbox you are playing currently.  Never really THOUGHT about endgame in a sandbox, what's the point? There is no win or lose.

Ina  good sandbox getting tired of what you've been doing isn't the end. A good sandbox will offer other paths that you can take to play a completely different way than you did before. If you've grown tired of killing all the creatures in the game then switch over to crafting. A good sandbox game offers alternative playstyles. Now if you just get bored at a point with any game I don't think that it is the games fault, but something in your own personality. You may just want something different.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

What could be added to EVE that doesn't involve the neverending struggle for domination and power between alliances that would make it an even greater MMO? That's the question I'm asking.

More cooperative PvE content that is cut off from PvP.

As long as EVE allows PvP to happen everywhere, it will be limited to 'the neverending struggle for domination and power'.   People who just want to create stuff are not going to be inclined to play a game where all you accomplished can be destroyed by someone who is merely better at PvP combat. 

EVE could add features where you can build entire civilizations in space but there is little point where this will just be ground down to nothing by bored PvPers.

Judging by the amount of commerce that goes on in Eve, you are completely wrong.  And no, without the "neverending struggle for domination" the Eve economy (and game as a whole) could not work.

Everyone wants the good facets of Eve but is never willing to accept the consequences of what must come with it.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Torik

In practical terms I view a game's 'endgame' as the aspect of the game that the devs promote over any others once a game has matured.  It is the are of the game that the devs want to funnel the players into due to 'vision' or simply because it is the most cost-efficient area to develop content for. 
For WoW the raids are the endgame that's the only real area that Blizzard develops stuff for after an expansion has come out.  For pre-NGE SWG the endgame was supposed to be the Galactic Civil War but got switched over to the Jedi holo grind.  For A Tale in the Desert the endgame is completing the tests once the population is done researching the technologies.  For EVE the endgame for most of its history was the 0.0 wars but lately it has been diversifing into wormholes and faction PvP.

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Erm, no.

WoW adds content for max levels because that is where the game leads you by design - it is based on linear progression.

Nothing like that applies in EVE. 0.0 in EVE is not an endgame by any means. Null sec and High sec are both are equal parts of the game, there is no determined progression between those two.

You can spend your whole game time in one or another, or migrate between those two. There is no design leads making you follow any determined way.

 

 

WoW expands vertically - it adds content along progression line. EVE on the other hand expands horizontally - it adds stuff you can do any time.

 

That only really applies to the PvP stuff.  The PvE stuff has short progression paths that lead out of empire space into low sec or null sec space.  If you want to mine the rarer asteroids, you need to leave empire space and go into unrestricted PvP territory.  Same goes for mission running and NPC pirate farming.  Only crafting and trading can be fully contained in empire space.  PvP and crafting get the bulk of the dev's attention and the other activities are ignored for years.

Ultima Online back around 2000 had what was never endgame. Youd have multiple characters each with different professions/ and or playstyle. Increase your wealth, resource gather and crafting to re-supply your vendor that you gave out 500 runes so people would keep coming back. Save up money to buy a tower instead of the small 1 room house you had. Or buy a boat and go fishing the sea's for treasure maps and message in a bottles. There was never end game, it was more on community and building a niche in an online world.

Ultima Online back then was probably the best MMO experience ive ever had.

Not sure if the OP undestands sandbox. Anyway, with UO stil being regarded as probably the best sandbox I'll give you an idea of what my days were like during those times back in 99/00. It's likely what you would see/end up doing in a sandbox nowadays. It's not about end, it's not about max, it's about "living" and creating a..let's say..name for yourself throughout your server really any way you want.

This could be done by being a huge trader, crafter, PvPer, a lot of RPers were respected on my server at the time (Catskills), and a lot of people just let them do their own thing.

Log in

Farm if you wish.

Craft if you wish.

Run around doing PvP (which I did) all day.

Get bored? Decorate your house, organize it.

Make stuff for your guild (remember, you lost stuff then)

Increase your wealth to buy a tower or castle, which were awesome.

Run around looking for houses about to fall (didn't open your house for a while, your house would rot - banned, lost interest, things like that)

Run around finding better locations for houses (next to mines, dungeons, etc)

If you haven't had your house looted in an MMO you haven't lived ;p

I don't know..you get the idea. It probably looks the same on paper compared to themepark, I'd say you have to play to get a real idea of how it works. I knew plenty of people who simply crafted and sat around Britannia all day..for years. Back then though people were more open and inclined to sit around and BS a little bit. 

People actually had like guild meetings in game, ceremonies, sandbox game are very geared towards social interaction. I spent some days just sitting around talking it up with guild members and stuff. Supplying your guild alone could be a full time job in game if PvP wasn't your thing. Most of the people who were wealthy were the crafters and the large guilds.

Funny thing about UO? There were probably like 25 dyable pieces of armor (leather, plate, chain) and not a ton of different looking helms, but enough. The point was though even with a simple dye system nobody really looked a like for the most part.

POLITICS - Politics were huge in UO and I would only imagine just as much in current gen. So much backstabbing/lying going on. Good times.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by BartDaCat

 

 

These are just a few ideas.  Almost none of them are new, but some of them are fondly remembered features from other MMORPGs, some "sandbox", some not.

I think there are a lot of ideas that a good "sandbox" MMORPG could borrow from other games, and still be highly favored by the gaming community.

 

EVE has, or has had, all of these.

Sorry for the reiteration.  I noticed a couple of people quoted this with the "EVE has, or has had, all of these."  I don't think they read the conclusion to my post, so just pointing out that I had already mentioned that these were "fondly remembered features" from other MMO's.

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Originally posted by Torik

Only crafting and trading can be fully contained in empire space. 

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Wrong, false assumption.

As said before, there is no need to leave empire space ever if you do not wish to and you can enjoy the game as much as someone living exclusively in Null sec space.

You are really stuck in linear progression mindset.

"Other activities" ignored for years, focused on PVP only? Funny that the source of the riots from last summer were complains just about the opposite - little love for pew-pew and CCP caring to fluff and carebears only...

There were Incursions and WiS added last year, before it there was whole exploration rework, new exploration sites and missions were added, epic arcs, agent finders, tutorials reworked, etc. etc. etc.

I encourage you to hit a trial of EVE Online and get first hand knowledge about the game rather than making vain assumptions...

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

Originally posted by RefMinor
Isn't a sandbox endgame an oxymoron?

Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

Originally posted by RefMinor
Isn't a sandbox endgame an oxymoron?

Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.

 

In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.

Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

Originally posted by RefMinor
Isn't a sandbox endgame an oxymoron?

Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.

 

In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.

Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.

Sandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).

Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.