Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by DannyGlover

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Originally posted by Vannor
Any form of entertainment should draw people in from the start.. if it doesn't do that for some people then thats it's problem right there. Everyone can't and probably shouldn't do things they don't enjoy in the hope that it might get better.
I muself got to about level 30 in TERA and I consider that a good try.. there are more wrongs with the game than right imo. For that reason I won't be buying it. Put that combat system into a more interesting world with more interesting quests and with classes I find more appealing and I would have been into it.

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I disagree. I think that video games have to afford a larger learning curve since it is an interactive media. So what ends up happening is that the more familiar you are with how these games work, the more boring the starting levels feel. Conversely, if you aren't used to the combat system or how quests and travel work, then the opening levels are a good way to get you acclimated.
If you start off you game with the training wheels off, you alienate a large number of potential customers. Its not that big of a deal if an mmo has a slow start. It doesn't get good til level 11? Big deal. That's like 2 hours out of 1000+.

I wasn't saying anything about the specifics of the gameplay or how that compares to later in the game. I was saying it needs to draw you in.. whether it be with story, lore, characters, a sense of achievement, a promise of things to come etc. anything that makes you excited to see what is next.

It drew me and several other players in - Are we doing it wrong?

If something isn't communicating those things or successfully making an impact with them on the majority of consumers then it's doing something wrong. Also, the game should be doing these things itself, not other people on forums.

lol you need to load up EVE Online - A game doesn't need to hold your hand from creation in order to be fun, successful or anything like that

Take the BAM quests in TERA for example. There is no indication that they are in the game until you start doing them. Having a BAM type quest at the end of the starter area would probably help things a lot (the one in the dungeon area didn't really count to me because it was stupidly easy). Rift did it by putting a simple rift at the end of the tutorial area, GW2 does it with a tutorial group boss event. TERA shows you the bare minimum possible to keep you moving forward.

There's a saying that used to be quite prevalent in the old school MUD days - It's PAFO - Play and Find Out.

Honestly - I would be embarrassed with what you're saying that you need to be spoon fed like a little baby.

 

Well, you've totally misinterpreted everything I was saying, or at least trying to say.

Please do tell, because it feels like I nailed it. I went by what you wrote, sorry if there was some secret hidden message I missed. I'm not fluent in troll.

I can usually accurately determine if a game is for me or not in a few hours or so. I am a bit more thorough than that though. I try many, if not all the classes because I've played games where I enjoyed only one class.

The starting island didn't bother me. Had nothing to do with me passing on the game. It was the combat. It wasn't fluid enough for me, especially being an action based game. The constant pausing on skills and normal attacks, especially trying to strafe, was annoying. I've played smoother games that weren't action based, lol. It is a shame, I was liking the warrior, just too cumbersome.

The lack of resists (elemental, magic) kind of makes the sorc a bit bland for me. I did like the archer, but again the movement during combat. I probably could have put up with it, but without some other factor to keep me in the game, I shouldn't have to.

Starting areas are usually bland, and I am not a big fan of quests, but I don't make my determination off of that. I judge the combat. If that doesn't draw me in, there is no point. The one thing I did like about the Tera introduction, is it started you off at level 20 with a variety of skills. Gives a good look at what combat will be like. Even without that though, can still tell a couple levels in. Sluggish fighting is not going to improve with more skills, just going to get worse.

Overall, found Tera not for me and I could have said that after a couple hours.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Searias

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

It's pretty simple, they go into the game thinking it will fail, and try to find whatever they can to prove it. Plus, most of them are already brain washed by Guild Wars 2, and they will never say anything good about Tera :P.

No, that's not really it at all.  I went into the game hoping for a new PVE based game to play, but found myself more annoyed than intrigued by the combat, and when you take out the combat, which is supposed to be the main selling point out, it's a WoW clone, without the style.

You can read my post history, I am not a GW2 fan boy.   I played more D3 this weekend than I did Tera.

Honestly i knew within minutes the game was not anything special to me and by 6 hours of an all to familiar yawnfest it was off my hard drive..

Is it a bad game?

No, it is not a bad game as much as it is just not my thing, it was the f2p style linear, generic questing and an art style thats not to my liking more than anything else..

The game ran really well on my pc and had a ton of players in it many of whom seemed to be enjoying the game unfortunately i was not one of them....

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by asianbboy101

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

so by your logic........If i say the game is fantastic and played under 10 hours of playing time; my input doesn't count as well?

 

Exactly - How much do you know about metaphysics. Ok, now study metaphysics for less than 10 hours, do you think you would have a valid input after that amount of studying?

learning metaphysics is not same as playing a video game and cannot be put into same flawed logic equation of yours.

It's amazing how this new self-entitled generation approaches things these days. Oh kids - You guys are in for a rude awakening in the real world with this "make something for me or it's inferior" attitude.

how is that self-entitled? plus i wasn't even in the beta. If I was in the beta and played and enjoyed it, how is that SELF-ENTITLED?! I play games cuz its fun, not dicated by someone with flawed logic.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by helthros

Exactly - How much do you know about metaphysics. Ok, now study metaphysics for less than 10 hours, do you think you would have a valid input after that amount of studying?

It's amazing how this new self-entitled generation approaches things these days. Oh kids - You guys are in for a rude awakening in the real world with this "make something for me or it's inferior" attitude.

I'm sorry but whether you didn't like tha game or not you can't dispute that the group content in the game will be fun for those who are enjoying the combat. Then again, most trolls don't even make it far enough to see the group content. Might I redirect you to the MMORPG.COM where Billy and MikeB comment on not having been blown away with TERA until they experienced their first group dungeon...

To the OP - TERA will be a niche game, there's no denying that.

All this whining about "omg if you can't grab your players within the first 10 hours". It's hit or miss. I remember when I started WOW, I did the most mundane collection of quests imaginable - However, I knew what I was looking forward to since my buddies were already engrossed in the game, so I kept going.

This game doesn't have innovative quests for solo play - If that's what you're after download Swtor or simply stick to single player games. This game is about grouping up and taking on fun group content - Accept it for what it is or move along.

This isn't metaphysics it's a video game.

How long should a person play a video game before they say "Yeah, I'm having a lot of fun"?

I would say at least until you get to the point the game is centered around - Here being the group content. If you didn't make it to at least 20 (at which point your input would be marginally respectable), then you don't know what you're talking about.

I live and work in the real world and this has nothing to do with entitlement. It's like you're blaming people for not liking this game. Back in my day we played pong on an Atari 2600 and damnit we appreciated it so stop complaining!

No, it's more the idea that of "oh I tried this out for 10 mins, suddenly I'm an expert and speak spoken facts when I say it sucks" - That won't do you any favors in the real world.

Yes, of course, some people are probably trolling the game with their posts, and that's not OK. Should people just try harder to like it? Things have changed since vanilla WoW. I ground rep in heroic Shattered Halls for weeks for a purple rep dagger, I know about "working" for something in an MMO. Yet now there is competition and choice and consumers have perhaps become more discriminating. Some folks will call game players these days Mountain Dew addled ADHD twitch gamers. Maybe there's some truth to that. But shouldn't game companies identify what their target audiences are looking for and try and make a product geared to that?

You mean like making an action oriented MMO with fun PvE and without tab targetting and skill rotations?

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by DannyGlover

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Originally posted by Vannor
Any form of entertainment should draw people in from the start.. if it doesn't do that for some people then thats it's problem right there. Everyone can't and probably shouldn't do things they don't enjoy in the hope that it might get better.
I muself got to about level 30 in TERA and I consider that a good try.. there are more wrongs with the game than right imo. For that reason I won't be buying it. Put that combat system into a more interesting world with more interesting quests and with classes I find more appealing and I would have been into it.

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I disagree. I think that video games have to afford a larger learning curve since it is an interactive media. So what ends up happening is that the more familiar you are with how these games work, the more boring the starting levels feel. Conversely, if you aren't used to the combat system or how quests and travel work, then the opening levels are a good way to get you acclimated.
If you start off you game with the training wheels off, you alienate a large number of potential customers. Its not that big of a deal if an mmo has a slow start. It doesn't get good til level 11? Big deal. That's like 2 hours out of 1000+.

I wasn't saying anything about the specifics of the gameplay or how that compares to later in the game. I was saying it needs to draw you in.. whether it be with story, lore, characters, a sense of achievement, a promise of things to come etc. anything that makes you excited to see what is next.

It drew me and several other players in - Are we doing it wrong?

If something isn't communicating those things or successfully making an impact with them on the majority of consumers then it's doing something wrong. Also, the game should be doing these things itself, not other people on forums.

lol you need to load up EVE Online - A game doesn't need to hold your hand from creation in order to be fun, successful or anything like that

Take the BAM quests in TERA for example. There is no indication that they are in the game until you start doing them. Having a BAM type quest at the end of the starter area would probably help things a lot (the one in the dungeon area didn't really count to me because it was stupidly easy). Rift did it by putting a simple rift at the end of the tutorial area, GW2 does it with a tutorial group boss event. TERA shows you the bare minimum possible to keep you moving forward.

There's a saying that used to be quite prevalent in the old school MUD days - It's PAFO - Play and Find Out.

Honestly - I would be embarrassed with what you're saying that you need to be spoon fed like a little baby.

 

Well, you've totally misinterpreted everything I was saying, or at least trying to say.

Please do tell, because it feels like I nailed it. I went by what you wrote, sorry if there was some secret hidden message I missed. I'm not fluent in troll.

It's a real shame when a blatent fanboi starts jumping on the posts they don't agree with and chooses the ignore the positive things I have said in other posts in the same thread. You certainly are fluent in troll my friend.

Originally posted by Searias

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

It's pretty simple, they go into the game thinking it will fail, and try to find whatever they can to prove it. Plus, most of them are already brain washed by Guild Wars 2, and they will never say anything good about Tera :P.

why are you so threatened by gw2?

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by asianbboy101

Originally posted by Jayaris

 

 

 

Silliness aside, let's point out how to design a game.

This game is about grouping up and taking on fun group content - Accept it for what it is or move along.

If that's the selling point of the game... put it in right from the start.  Don't make people play 30 hours of boring content before introducing them to the hook.   Seriously, is that so difficult to figure out?

 

This is exactly what's wrong with the MMO community. "Give me the goods now or go home".

I would say what is wrong with the MMO community is simpletons continue to  buy crappy games and make excuses for the developers  which enables more developers to make more crappy games.

In what other aspect of ANYTHING does a producer hide the best parts of their product from potential buyers?

How would you like to try a peice of cheesecake?  Oh, yes, you have two eat off the top layer of dogshit before you get to the good part, but keep with it, it's going to be great eventually.

The alpha testers should have told them that the starting content for the game was dog shit, if they couldn't figure it out for themselves.  It's good that they are reacting in an effort to get people to overcome the dogshit part with their new tutorial, but really what they should do is scrap the thing and do it right.

If the game gets good at level 20, make me level 20.  If you don't feel like I've earned it, make level 20 like a hell level in Everquest, but for God's sake, don't expect me to slap down 50 bucks on poor design and implentation and hope that after 30 hours of wasting my time the game get's better.  Why would I intentionally do that?

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

First impressions are lasting impressions.  I have never, ever, ever, ever (repeat ever here 9000 times) played an MMO long term where the first hour of the game didnt grab me by the scruff of the neck and scream "PLAY ME FOOL".  I have played about 20 MMO's where I was not impressed in the first hour of gameplay and at some point in the future I turned around and said "wow this game sucked at level 1 but was awesome at level xxx".

 

If any vetern of MMOs can not see long term playability and feasability within the first hour of gameplay then you're an idiot.

Thats not always the case mr. veteran.  Especially since TERA wasn't originally made here, its quite the different case.  The game really gets better the deeper you go and I think thats something alot of MMO's fail to capture.

Originally posted by asianbboy101

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by asianbboy101

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

so by your logic........If i say the game is fantastic and played under 10 hours of playing time; my input doesn't count as well?

 

Exactly - How much do you know about metaphysics. Ok, now study metaphysics for less than 10 hours, do you think you would have a valid input after that amount of studying?

learning metaphysics is not same as playing a video game and cannot be put into same flawed logic equation of yours.

It's amazing how this new self-entitled generation approaches things these days. Oh kids - You guys are in for a rude awakening in the real world with this "make something for me or it's inferior" attitude.

how is that self-entitled? plus i wasn't even in the beta. If I was in the beta and played and enjoyed it, how is that SELF-ENTITLED?! I play games cuz its fun, not dicated by someone with flawed logic.

Maybe the metaphysics example was over your head. Study muffins for 10 hours, and then you tell me if you feel like an expert all things muffins. I forgot how forum people with no arguement tend to harp on semantics :). The logic remains, 10 hours doesn't make you an expert on anything, video game or not. 10 hours in WoW lets you know what the end game is like, right?

You weren't in the beta, and you're commenting like you know the game? Thanks for proving my point lol.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by asianbboy101

Originally posted by Jayaris

 

 

 

Silliness aside, let's point out how to design a game.

This game is about grouping up and taking on fun group content - Accept it for what it is or move along.

If that's the selling point of the game... put it in right from the start.  Don't make people play 30 hours of boring content before introducing them to the hook.   Seriously, is that so difficult to figure out?

 

This is exactly what's wrong with the MMO community. "Give me the goods now or go home".

I would say what is wrong with the MMO community is simpletons continue to  buy crappy games and make excuses for the developers  which enables more developers to make more crappy games.

In what other aspect of ANYTHING does a producer hide the best parts of their product from potential buyers?

How would you like to try a peice of cheesecake?  Oh, yes, you have two eat off the top layer of dogshit before you get to the good part, but keep with it, it's going to be great eventually.

The alpha testers should have told them that the starting content for the game was dog shit, if they couldn't figure it out for themselves.  It's good that they are reacting in an effort to get people to overcome the dogshit part with their new tutorial, but really what they should do is scrap the thing and do it right.

If the game gets good at level 20, make me level 20.  If you don't feel like I've earned it, make level 20 like a hell level in Everquest, but for God's sake, don't expect me to slap down 50 bucks on poor design and implentation and hope that after 30 hours of wasting my time the game get's better.  Why would I intentionally do that?

Exactly what's wrong with MMOs and where they are headed - "If it's fun at 20, then start me at lvl 20!!!". I want my cheese and I want it now!!!

If you really get into where MMO's come from and the lore then you recognize that you're trying to prove yourself as a hero

Clearly you don't make the cut ;)

I think the main problem isn't people only trying it for less than 10hrs. Many people don't like to spend hours before fun starts, (me and my friend are though lol we play grind heavy games so 10 to get to the fun is nothing, we used to working months to get to the top in games and then enjoy the higher lvl content other can't. Idk we feel sense of achievement when we grind and lvl, not sure what most people now feels lol) and honestly thats their choice. You know if you want a game to grab you at the start and it doesn't and/or you just don't like the game. Good for you, hope you find something you like.

The PROBLEM is all the people who does that and try to convence everyone else the game isn't worth playing or is trash becuase they FELT it wasn't worth playing. I think thats the main issue many of us have is that people who don't like the game try to devalue the game for what it is simplly because they don't like it, and because they don't like it everyone else must not like it.

If the game gets good at level 20, make me level 20.  If you don't feel like I've earned it, make level 20 like a hell level in Everquest, but for God's sake, don't expect me to slap down 50 bucks on poor design and implentation and hope that after 30 hours of wasting my time the game get's better.  Why would I intentionally do that?

Exactly what's wrong with MMOs and where they are headed - "If it's fun at 20, then start me at lvl 20!!!". I want my cheese and I want it now!!!

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't feel like I should have to pay a company to punish me.  You think playing a boring, uninspired click fest is a good thing.  To each his own.

I want to enjoy anything I pay for, be it a game, a cheeseburger, a concert ticket, a night at the comedy club right from the start.  Call me crazy, but that's how I roll.

If you pay me $900, I will buy Tera and play until the good part starts and give it a fare chance, or maybe I will pay someone else to level up my character past the shitty part.

Deal?

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Purgatus

Well, I for one, have never played a game for 10 hours, and didnt get a sense of what it was like. Its true that people shouldn't just bash it without keeping an open mind though.

If you cannot give your players a feel for what the game is like in the beginning, which for an MMO is the first few days / 10 - 20 levels depending on what the cap is, then its just poor game design.

When I played WoW, DAoC, Rifts, SWTOR, etc, I got a sense right away what the game was like. How long do you feel you need to play before getting the gist?

First i'm not stalking you, it's just a coincidence if i quote you again. ;)

 

I agree that in this game they made a poor job of enticing a new player, the starting island is quite dull.

And while I agree that Rift and SWTOR have a decent starting area. I can't say the same for WOW. (i never played DAoC if not a beta long time ago so i don't know) 

Maybe it changed in the last years i don't know but from what i remember of the human starting area in WoW the quests progession was something like:

(QG quest giver)

 

QG: Please kill those 10 kobolds

YOU: Right away!

 

- later --

QG: Oh Thanks! Now please kill that other kobolds with a different name!

YOU: Of course it's my job!

 

-- later --

QG: Great, look i don't want to impose but there are some minerals in that cave... they are guarded by some kobolds.

YOU: Hey i'm the hero already moving!

 

-- later--

QG: You are a life saver, Now if you want to move to Goldshire there is some work there too.

YOU: At once!

 

-- Goldshire --

QG2: Hey I heard you have a way with kobolds can you explore this 2 mines full of them?

QG3: Since you like to kill Kobolds can you get some golden dust from them please?

QGX: Kobolds blah blah blah Kobold....

YOU: ........

 

So really, is this better?

I don't mind a stalker that's not an internet tard and a seeming rational person! lol.

When I played WoW, theose first levels were more than enough to tell me:

1. Class Mechanics

2. Quest structure

3. Art style

4. Advancment Scheme

5. Itemization

These gave me a good feel of what the game felt like. Though I don't like wow for its mechanics, I do like that it conved them right away.

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Originally posted by Vannor

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Originally posted by DannyGlover

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Originally posted by Vannor
Any form of entertainment should draw people in from the start.. if it doesn't do that for some people then thats it's problem right there. Everyone can't and probably shouldn't do things they don't enjoy in the hope that it might get better.
I muself got to about level 30 in TERA and I consider that a good try.. there are more wrongs with the game than right imo. For that reason I won't be buying it. Put that combat system into a more interesting world with more interesting quests and with classes I find more appealing and I would have been into it.

---

I disagree. I think that video games have to afford a larger learning curve since it is an interactive media. So what ends up happening is that the more familiar you are with how these games work, the more boring the starting levels feel. Conversely, if you aren't used to the combat system or how quests and travel work, then the opening levels are a good way to get you acclimated.
If you start off you game with the training wheels off, you alienate a large number of potential customers. Its not that big of a deal if an mmo has a slow start. It doesn't get good til level 11? Big deal. That's like 2 hours out of 1000+.

---

I wasn't saying anything about the specifics of the gameplay or how that compares to later in the game. I was saying it needs to draw you in.. whether it be with story, lore, characters, a sense of achievement, a promise of things to come etc. anything that makes you excited to see what is next.
If something isn't communicating those things or successfully making an impact with them on the majority of consumers then it's doing something wrong. Also, the game should be doing these things itself, not other people on forums.
Take the BAM quests in TERA for example. There is no indication that they are in the game until you start doing them. Having a BAM type quest at the end of the starter area would probably help things a lot (the one in the dungeon area didn't really count to me because it was stupidly easy). Rift did it by putting a simple rift at the end of the tutorial area, GW2 does it with a tutorial group boss event. TERA shows you the bare minimum possible to keep you moving forward.

---

There are a ton of games and even entire genres that do not appeal to me. Do I go on a forum and say that the reason is bad game design? That would be silly.

Originally posted by rexzshadow

I think the main problem isn't people only trying it for less than 10hrs. Many people don't like to spend hours before fun starts, (me and my friend are though lol we play grind heavy games so 10 to get to the fun is nothing, we used to working months to get to the top in games and then enjoy the higher lvl content other can't. Idk we feel sense of achievement when we grind and lvl, not sure what most people now feels lol) and honestly thats their choice. You know if you want a game to grab you at the start and it doesn't and/or you just don't like the game. Good for you, hope you find something you like.

The PROBLEM is all the people who does that and try to convence everyone else the game isn't worth playing or is trash becuase they FELT it wasn't worth playing. I think thats the main issue many of us have is that people who don't like the game try to devalue the game for what it is simplly because they don't like it, and because they don't like it everyone else must not like it.

I think this is a fair statement.

I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is when you see an interesting post with an opinion (such as this one) that differs from your own. I certainly do not want my opinion, based on my gameplay experience, to somehow devalue the experience of a person who thoroughly enjoyed Tera. And I would hope that people interested in it, or people on the fence, got a chance to play the beta and form their own opinions as to whether or not it was a good fit.

At the same time I don't think it's helpful to blame people for not liking something by saying they didn't play enough to get to the good parts or that somehow they're just part of a bad MMO generation because they aren't willing to slog through the boring content, or worse, that if they didn't make it to a certain level that their opinion is invalid.

Hopefully forums are used as a place to debate ideas and hands-on experience with products in an objective a way as possible. I think Tera has many good qualities, and I support any MMO that tries to bring something new to the table, even if I don't purchase it.

Originally posted by Jayaris

Why are people judging the game based off of less than 10 hours playing time? The game isn't 10 hours long, a miniscule fraction of the game is 10 hours. So don't play for four hours and say 'Overall' I think TERA is bad - You haven't played the game, you've messed around for a few hours.

I will give you a typical response which players mostly use...'if the game didn't grab you in first few minutes..then not worth the effort'. if it is true for every other MMO it is true for Tera too.

I see a lot of people saying first impressions are everything but they're not, yes they give a sense of what you might expect but if a game takes a whole other direction then the initial first impression you got then are you still going to play it ?

I mean look at AoC, that's one game that really gave me a fuzzy feeling at the start and as soon as i got out of tortage that feeling quickly faded for several reasons.

I've had games that couldn't have a worse possible start or a really short tutorial that didn't help at all and about half of them were awesome, sure i could have avoided those that sucked because random review dude A said so but i never would have known the awesome ones if i didn't keep trying them out for myself.

I guess what i'm trying to say is; never judge a book by it's cover.

Originally posted by helthros

 -snip

So if I play TERA for 4000 hours will that make me an expert?