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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I want a game here PvP isn't separate.

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43 posts found
  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

 
OP  4/18/12 8:12:30 PM#21
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by aesperus

 

TERA -> Fantasy MMO w/ action combat. From what I've seen / read there's no 'pvp' gear. Gear is gear, and there is Open PvP.

 

according to the Tera website here: http://tera.enmasse.com/game-guide/endgame

TERA has a wide selection of PvP gear available for truly "dedicated" players, and the more of it you have, the better your chance you'll of living long enough to counter-attack.

Yes Tera had PvP gear, but it was removed from launch, so Tera is the only game currently that falls in the OP's guildlines.

If they don't treat PvP as a separate entity than I will give it a try too. So many games put PvP in just because they feel they have to. It always feels like its just added on to me to make the pvp masses happy. On the other end of the spectrum, some PvP centric games make the leveling affair so damn boring (and the PvP is STILL instanced lol).

  KatlaOdindottir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/10
Posts: 150

4/18/12 8:16:56 PM#22

Darkfall will be relaunched into Darkfall 2.0 and I think mmo's in general will be saved! It's looking awesome

www.daneslaw.com

@GamerKurisu

Awaiting Darkfall Unholy Wars

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

 
OP  4/18/12 8:21:48 PM#23

I havent read up on it too much yet, do you know if they are going to limit the amount of skills you can max out? I wasn't far behind many players, so I wasn't getting owned by others who had tons of magic and melee. I just didn't care for that aspect. But if 2.0 fixes a lot of other issues I will probably be able to get over it ;)

  Suraknar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/07
Posts: 808

*Everyone dies, not everyone really fights*

4/18/12 9:53:42 PM#24
Originally posted by madazz

A trend that has been going on for sometime now is to have PvP built in as an almost entirely separate entity. You have raids for PvP gear, PvP instances, PvP weapons, PvP skills, PvP points, skills/powers that happen to behave differently while in PvP.

I just wish one game would stray from the norm and create a game where armour is armour, weapons are weapons, PvPing is just PvPing and part of the game. Also, screw balance to make this happen. Not every class needs to be entirely balanced. Why does someone who chooses to play as a healer need to compete evenly with a warrior? Hate to bring it up, but in UO it worked. My swordsman was typically slaughtered by a mage, so I adapted. Also, its what alts are for. Its not as if the warrior would never need the healer, the healer just isn't going to go toe to toe with a giant ogre as easily.

Some of you are going to bring up Darkfall or MO, but I wish it was a high calibre game that would introduce this. Maybe Darkfall 2.0? I dunno we shall see.

Just sharing what I want, and I in no way think all games should adapt to the frame of thought. But lately every game coming out that is supposed to be different turns out mostly like the rest with just a few tweaks.

I agree with the sentiment here. I quit WoW rprecicelly because of the direction of segragatiing PvP and PvE. I used to like the game in Vanilla, I may not have liked Raids (I did them all a couple of time, I did not like the repetition imposed by the design) and the such but I did really enjoy its PvP then with BC to Lich king it went down a path which disgusted me...and that was it, asta la vista for me in relation to it. Since I have stayed away from Themeparks in general as they all went on the same trend.
 Mechanical and Innorganic, armour is not armour everwhere...this is so artificial and constraining.

I am starting to beleive based on recent admissions by the WoW devs that they went in to that direction because they made wrong conclusions of their data.

Maybe what happened is that they tried to figure out why so small a percentage of people were bringing the raids to term and they may have assumed in error that people prefered to get their gear from PvP instead of participating in raids, and tried to separate things as to provide people incentive (force) to participate in both.

Recently they realise that the reason is simply because most people do not want to go through the hassle (and it is a hassle) of preparing with proper potions and other supportive elements, without ignoring macros addons (another can of worms there), to suceed. It is a Hypothesis but it is a possibility, and they lost many players in the process of trying to understand the psychology behind player behavior.

But all this, is also an issue, I want to play in a World where my senses are stimulated by this medium of entertainment by the freedom of choice and possibilities it offers. I am not interested being someone elses subject of studdy trying to figure out my behavior so they can steer me in partaking in the rides of their game.

Devs should be making games not trying to play Psychologists.

GW2 is my last Themepark attempt, if it does not pan out, Themeparks are written off my list for the rest of my lif, i'll play casually MMO such as WoT and Single player games untill a descent World MMO comes allong.

 

 

 

- Duke Suraknar -
Order of the Silver Star, OSS


ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  Dissolution

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/12
Posts: 210

Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.

4/19/12 3:58:57 AM#25

I have been wanting this for a long time as well. Particularly based in an MMO setting.

I am not really interested in MOBAs, and anytime I ask about PVP games these are what are generally reccomended.

I am a PVP fanatic, and love the third person MMO based gameplay. However, I also want a progression for PVP that doesnt mean switching PVE gear for PVP gear when I want to do PVP. The concept is silly. What character in the context of a fantasy world would carry a special set of gear to kill another person as opposed to the monsters in the area?

Darkfall 2.0 looks interesting but I am not going to set my hopes too high either. For now I play a game I like for PVE, and look for PVP elsewhere. I have yet to find one that works both well in one environement.

Even the games that do PVP well tend to focus on PVP as a second thought. And nearly all the games that do PVP well have an instanced PVP segment of the game making it a completely seperate entity from the game itself and making it useless and a waste of time to PVP in the open world.

If you find one let me know, Ive got my bags packed and waiting.

  Quirhid

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/19/12 4:15:29 AM#26
Originally posted by Dissolution

I have been wanting this for a long time as well. Particularly based in an MMO setting.

I am not really interested in MOBAs, and anytime I ask about PVP games these are what are generally reccomended.

I am a PVP fanatic, and love the third person MMO based gameplay. However, I also want a progression for PVP that doesnt mean switching PVE gear for PVP gear when I want to do PVP. The concept is silly. What character in the context of a fantasy world would carry a special set of gear to kill another person as opposed to the monsters in the area?

Darkfall 2.0 looks interesting but I am not going to set my hopes too high either. For now I play a game I like for PVE, and look for PVP elsewhere. I have yet to find one that works both well in one environement.

Even the games that do PVP well tend to focus on PVP as a second thought. And nearly all the games that do PVP well have an instanced PVP segment of the game making it a completely seperate entity from the game itself and making it useless and a waste of time to PVP in the open world.

If you find one let me know, Ive got my bags packed and waiting.

I want to hear about one too. I haven't found any good (average maybe, good no) open world PvP. I'm beginning to think its a myth - right alongside pink elephants, unicorns and sandboxes with high production values.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
4/19/12 4:29:24 AM#27
Originally posted by mrcjevans

Darkfall will be relaunched into Darkfall 2.0 and I think mmo's in general will be saved! It's looking awesome

Hopefully 2.0 comes out for darkfall soon. It was suppose to launch last year and we still have no word on it. If 2.0 comes out I'll be going back to it. Most likely we won't see 2.0 for at least another ten years. :|

  nfefx

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/10
Posts: 30

4/19/12 6:58:54 AM#28
Originally posted by LEmmopeasant
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

What's wrong with DF or MO?

They are shitty games

Why?

 

Where would you like to start?

 DF:

- Empty, dead as fuck because it is a shitty game

- No skill cap so everyone basically has everything, there's no uniqueness or any builds at all.  Veteran players are basically walking gods, with high or max levels of every single skill in the game. This is something UO got right A DECADE AGO and aventurine still managed to fuck it up.

- Horrific UI. You need autohotkey macros just to make it fucking functionable and even then it's below par.

- Bugs, there's  a fuckton of them. You have a 75% chance of getting an error message upon trying to even start the game for the first time. Google the error and you will basically read "Yeah.. that happens.. just keep trying it until it works". Load lag occurs anytime you are in an empty area and players enter your region, you lag for asec as they load in and it's basically a flashing bright sign that says "you bout to get ganked bro".

- Exploits.. dupes.. speed hacks.. teleport hacks.. aimbot. Welcome to Darkfall.

- Grind. Since there is no skill cap.. you have to get EVERYTHING to be competitive.. because everyone else who is ahead of you did. To receive all the glories I listed above of this wonderful game, you get to grind your ass off for months while avoiding PvP like the plague because everyone else in the game is head and shoulders above you and will go out of their way to gank and loot your 50 reagents and 200 gold. Not because they need it, just because they are bored because as stated in point 1: the game is fucking empty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-hOGgrl5V4

- Bunny hop script

I could go on. You should get the point by now. Darkfall 2.0 isn't going to fix shit, Aventurine couldn't hit the mark the first time and there's no one left to care for the second go around.

Don't get me wrong.. I don't WANT Darkfall to be garbage.. the concept/world/mechanics are my dream MMO. They are just terribly implemented, AV doesn't have the budget nor the knowledge to make it work. Everytime one of these games comes out nowadays I get my hopes up and then it turns out to be utter shit. Shadowbane reloaded is my new hope, i'm sure it will end up trash as well. Back to Mount&Blade.

 

 

  KatlaOdindottir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/10
Posts: 150

4/19/12 11:35:46 AM#29
Originally posted by madazz

I havent read up on it too much yet, do you know if they are going to limit the amount of skills you can max out? I wasn't far behind many players, so I wasn't getting owned by others who had tons of magic and melee. I just didn't care for that aspect. But if 2.0 fixes a lot of other issues I will probably be able to get over it ;)

 

Yup, instead of everyone being able to use all magix and be like gandalf... there will be choices... the armor or robe you put on will determine what you can and can't cast for example if you use a fire robe yo'll be a fire mage and unable to cast other schools although there are two schools that everyone will have access to with basic spells.

 

People posting that video about why you shouldn't play should only spread optimism.

 

For example bunny hopping will be fixed... If someone tries to bunny hop like they do now and they have less than 90hp or the damage taken from bunny hopping exceeds your health then they will become incapacitated for a short time and gankable. AV do listen to people but it just takes time and Recently tasos said it's out in the next couple of months, so I'm guessing within the year.

www.daneslaw.com

@GamerKurisu

Awaiting Darkfall Unholy Wars

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

 
OP  4/19/12 6:33:18 PM#30

I'm not sure that making your skills limited by your clothing is such a good idea. Actually sounds annoying to me lol.

  KatlaOdindottir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/10
Posts: 150

4/19/12 9:39:00 PM#31
Originally posted by madazz

I'm not sure that making your skills limited by your clothing is such a good idea. Actually sounds annoying to me lol.

It's an example mate... and I would rather that... than evryone using all spells etc, and i'm sure 90% of peopel would agree including you ;)

www.daneslaw.com

@GamerKurisu

Awaiting Darkfall Unholy Wars

  LEmmopeasant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 46

4/19/12 11:13:59 PM#32

That sounds horrific!

  Dissolution

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/12
Posts: 210

Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.

4/20/12 12:17:28 AM#33
Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

That sounds horrific!

 

No doubt. I cant even stand the concept of seperate PVE and PVP gear. If I need to carry a bag full of gear to accomodate 6 or 7 different class types I would just assume shoot myself in the face.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

4/20/12 12:30:17 AM#34

There is a reason that many games have splitted PvP from PvE.

The 2 playstyles are very different from eachother, since you use different tactics you need different gearand different builds.

The alternative is to make PvP and PvE closer, which would mean that you have to kill off the holy trinity combat and make a PvE AI that at least act somewhat human. I think many devs fear that they would distance the PvE:ers if they do something like that but it is really the logical way to proceed if you want to mix PvE and PvP.

There have been a lot talk about griefing and that would be the reason to not mix things up and even if that is a part of it I believe that it is more the MMO mechanics that is the problem.

As long as PvE and PvP are 2 different mechanics mixing them never will be really good. That is also the reason that so many companies are interested in MMOFPS since the 2 are a lot closer there, but you can really make a good MMORPG with the right mechanics as well.

Why do you think that most MMO players prefer PvE while most people who play FPS and RTS prefer PvP? It is because those games do PvP better while most MMOs do PvE better.

PvP was added as an afterthought to the genre, Meridian 59s beta testers wanted it so they added it but the trinity mechanics was made for PvE.

  LEmmopeasant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 46

4/20/12 12:33:15 AM#35

Oh actually I was talking about the shortcomings of Darkfall. I forgot to quote nfefx.

But, yes, separate PvP/PvE gear is definitely a no-no. I won't play a game like that. Never ever, ever. It's horrific as well.

Too much horrificality!

  LEmmopeasant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 46

4/20/12 12:44:38 AM#36
Originally posted by Loke666

There is a reason that many games have splitted PvP from PvE.

The 2 playstyles are very different from eachother, since you use different tactics you need different gearand different builds.

The alternative is to make PvP and PvE closer, which would mean that you have to kill off the holy trinity combat and make a PvE AI that at least act somewhat human. I think many devs fear that they would distance the PvE:ers if they do something like that but it is really the logical way to proceed if you want to mix PvE and PvP.

There have been a lot talk about griefing and that would be the reason to not mix things up and even if that is a part of it I believe that it is more the MMO mechanics that is the problem.

As long as PvE and PvP are 2 different mechanics mixing them never will be really good. That is also the reason that so many companies are interested in MMOFPS since the 2 are a lot closer there, but you can really make a good MMORPG with the right mechanics as well.

Why do you think that most MMO players prefer PvE while most people who play FPS and RTS prefer PvP? It is because those games do PvP better while most MMOs do PvE better.

PvP was added as an afterthought to the genre, Meridian 59s beta testers wanted it so they added it but the trinity mechanics was made for PvE.

I have to disagree. Some old P&P rpgs are 100% PvP. So, maybe for some games it is an afterthought. When it is an afterthought, it's like you say. The game is built upon PvE, so the skills-n-builds are really dependent on aggro, taunting, tanking. None of that exists in PvP because players are smart enough to target DPS. I don't think that alone justifies separate PvP gear, skills, etc. If PvP is an afterthought, just let the players PvP with their PvE characters. Whatever twisted combat emerges from that will probably be just as fine as any mediocre PvP game frankensteined onto a PvE game.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

4/20/12 12:51:39 AM#37
Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

I have to disagree. Some old P&P rpgs are 100% PvP. So, maybe for some games it is an afterthought. When it is an afterthought, it's like you say. The game is built upon PvE, so the skills-n-builds are really dependent on aggro, taunting, tanking. None of that exists in PvP because players are smart enough to target DPS. I don't think that alone justifies separate PvP gear, skills, etc. If PvP is an afterthought, just let the players PvP with their PvE characters. Whatever twisted combat emerges from that will probably be just as fine as any mediocre PvP game frankensteined onto a PvE game.

Yeah, there are some games where PvP is the main focus instead, but those games usually have bad PvE instead.

Separating things is the alternative to creating a good mechanics that work as well for both playstyles.

I been playing plenty of games since I started in 1996 and never seen one that isn't a lot better at one thing or the other. PvE is commonly best but some games have a lot better PvP instead.

  AryanRo

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 30

4/20/12 1:21:19 AM#38

Fair pvp doesnt exist and this mix of pve-pvp sucks plain and simple.. Pvpeers jump games like changing underwear and if you put all the pvp community together you gonna notice is very little compare to pve and all they wanna do is pvp gang rape the lower levels.  Happen to me in Tera I did not know I was in pvp server and I was trying to cross the land to get to a city where I can get back to newbb zone and I was gank by 2 high levels player they could see I was no match to them but I was killed. In the end I went to pve server and made a new toon.. but that story I seen it repeatedly in every game I go... a day ago I was ask for a duel in Aion newb zone I was 8 and the one asking was 22. Since in Aion you can see player level I can see he had the upper hand and I decline overrall I suck at pvp but I always get ask to duel by people who have an unfair advantage over me. 

Still is always the same story people now are paying attention to bulling in school but virtual bulling have existed in all pvp mmo's.. To me have to a realization that all pvpeer are cowards in fair fight they run or in fight where you need skills rather the butch up armor or stats they end up failing. I have not found a game where I can say pvp is on equal grounds except Planetside but in the end fail the same way I thought I was on equal grounds with other  and I end up being killed faster then I could kill problem I saw was that the winning nation had the advantage of better equiped players. I depending on if I get on beta I may go up again on version 2 lol.. 

Tabula Raza was another good pvp type game but again higher level toons in lower level zones made it hard for the player base to go up and pretty much kills the game..

 

Pretty simple Pvp = Open Bully System. I would love to see a game where the AI  would calculate base on score x who can pvp who, so anybody on 50% equal chance winning have a fair fight  and no unfair advantage. The minute the Ai notice someone armor having an unfair upper hand advantage end the fight or not allow it.. Strong killing the weak offers no challenge only create a bigger bully with points.

  Niffi

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 36

4/20/12 1:48:11 AM#39

@Loke666: The Trinity is not a problem in pvp. Of course your aggro-/hatred-skills are useless but the tankclasses normally have advantages with their high defence. Most tankclasses ive seen have strong group-protection-skills, too.

@AryanRo: There was a very simple solution for this problem in Runes of Magic. If you get killed, you get a buff, which protect you for being attacked for 5 minutes (if you got killed fast after this for 10 and after this for 15 minutes).

Greets Niffi

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/20/12 6:51:09 AM#40
Originally posted by madazz

 

... Guildwars 2 seems interesting, but from what I read its not open PvP and when you do PvP it is instanced...

There are two types of PvP in GW2... the instanced like you mentioned, which is 5v5 competitive style, and the zoned, persistent World v World, which will be three servers against each other for two week long wars to control four massive maps. You can completely level up to 80 there, players drop loot as though they were mobs, and they'll be level appropriate for you, your base stats are boosted to level 80 so you won't have to fear the one-shot, there's PvE to be had there as well if you wish... yes, the main set of PvE zones are separate and PvP free. But you may find you enjoy living in the Mists.

Oderint, dum metuant.

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