Originally posted by Byrhofen

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Byrhofen

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

As far as I'm aware (even though I'm no wow fan) Blizzard has been substantially up front with their numbers, on the other hand however, EA Games has been outright disingenuous with their numbers and thus misleading their playerbase (or idiots as others would describe them). As to your claim regarding GW2's supposed beta finagling, we're talking about a dev company trying to organize beta signups during advanced game development; much more room for error and continuous updates/corrections as opposed to outright intended deception on the part of EA Games. That my friend is called a "false comparison" (or "false analogy"), look it up, you might learn a thing or two.

Your attempt to compare GW2's beta sign up issues with the finagling of numbers is just as disingenuous as the companies that tweak/bend the numbers in order to save face.

So, where is the incontrovertible proof that EA lied about having 1.7M subscribers when they claimed they had them?

Thats what you are claiming right? that they lied, that is what you mean by "outright intended deception" isnt it?

Funny that, as I do not recall seeing anyone from EA  face prosecution, I mean, if they had lied as you claim, then that would be fraud, would it not?

As for comparing a finished product to an unfinished one, where have you been? do you live under a rock? how have you missed all the post's on this site about how unfinished SWTOR is? seem's quite fair to compare the two games to be honest.

Nice how you dodged the server merge comment though.

First thing first, I never said that EA Games lied. One thing is to lie another is to intentionally mislead people. By claiming to have 1.7 mil subs (which they do if they coun't inactive accounts) EA Games was misleading people as to the real numbers of actual players playing the game (approx 600-700k). When EA claimed they had 1.7M subs, they had just sold almost 2M boxes, and people were still in their free 30 day period, so while I personally would not count any of them as subscribers, I would not try to claim they lied about the number of them at that time and state it as a fact. Which is exactly what you did, no matter how you try to spin it now.

I believe that EA Games has been disingenuous and misleading by their outright intention to deceive people as to the grim reality of their ever shrinking actual player base. Based on their use of language, it is clear and evident that EA Games is indeed intetionally finagling their numbers. Aha, so you change from giving FACTS to your belief's, nice one.

As to the servers... I didn't comment cause I believe that they are clear evidence of their attenuating active player base, plain and simple. You claimed they were merging servers, of which there is no evidence at all, now you try and switch that around as well, another FACT that is incorrect, not doing well here are you.

If I'm living under a rock, you're in complete and hopeless denial. SWTOR has been released, GW2 has not. SWTOR was considered a finished product and sold in stores, GW2 is still being developed (please don't be ignorant enough to compare game release sales with pre purchase/ pre order sales). The nature of mmorgs makes them "ever changing/updating", but you are being outright disingenuous (or hopelessly ignorant) by  claiming that an update (1.2 in SWTOR) is equivalent to the pre-release developmental status of a game. For all your incontrovertible use of language, you're making quite a fool out of yourself.  I was not the one to start making comparisons, and if it is fair for GW2 fanboys to compare the unfinished, unreleased GW2 to SWTOR in the favour of GW2, then comparisons are fair all round.

In fact, I did not even compare the games, I just gave an example of "finagled" numbers in relation to GW2, which as you rightly pointed out is not even released yet, so if they are doing that now, what makes you think they will not continue to do so? oh thats right, it was just a harmless mistake, and in no way intentional, my bad ;)

 

I dont care for Swtor it bored me fast, however I know EA very well. They one of the most curropt gamming corpirations out there.

Hell they was even voted the worst corpiration in the usa.(which I dont agree with, there is a lot worse out there)

However unlike them ArenaNet have a good rep, since they made gw1. Theyve kept all there promise, they never show anything unless it. Already in the game and even for holidays they go out of there way to make new major content just for that holiday. 

ArenaNet have a good past, unlike EA.

Uh and you say way before, that if EA lied that would be considering as a lie and so they would get in trouble for Fraud.

Which is not true, Corpirations in the usa is consider a person. So tehy have the rights of one, and so they have free speech.

It was not that long ago, when a news corpiration(not saying it name, because it does not matter to this con) was tooking to court for doing false stories, and it was thrown out. Because they had the right to free speech and so they was allowed to say false things in there news.

Lastly can you plz tell me, where you get the info about how gw2 lied about how many beta sign up they had.

However I know it was open for only 48hrs, because I was there at the time watching.

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
 

A Poll like this isn't about how good a game is going to be, it is about peoples expectation toward a certain game.

I have been around long enought to know that, expectations about a game that hasn't been released are completely separate from how people feel about a game 6 months after release.

So... just by the supposed fact that you've "been around long enough" (whatever that means) we are to acknowledge any credence to your argument? In philosphical terminology, it is a fallacy commonly referred to as "appealing to authority" (or in your case, your own authority). Pretty conceited is it not?

When I say, expectations about a game that hasn't been released are completly seperate from how people feel about a game six months after release, it goes for all games, GW2 just happens to be the current game that people are saying will be the next greatest thing ever, after GW2 comes out, it will only be a matter of time before the next, greatest game ever, will be coming down the pike. Rince and Repeat

 

One thing is to learn from experience, another is to claim wisdom/knowledge simply because "you've been around long enough". Fools and wisemen alike benefit from experience, but experience alone doesn't make a fool a wiseman.

Ok, I'm sorry but wtf. You are claiming appeal to authority on because he is saying that given past experience he knows that expectations about the game before its released are different from feeling about the game after it has been released?

Here, I would like to introduce you to another concept... Res Ipsa Loquitur. Go look that up.

His claim is incontrovertible and self evident. Expectations of experience are completely separate from actual experience. That was ALL that he said...

And you know what? I can be described as a GW2 fanboy, cause I am hyped for this beyond belief... And I still cannot find any way to take umbrage at what he said, because it is self-evident, incontrovertible, and does not make any value call about what the actual experience will be, only that we cannot use expectation of experience as an actual guage for experience.

Since you seem to like philosophy, there is a wealth of literature covering that that you can look at.. Go read some wittgenstein, or one of the many others who've talked about wish vs. fulfillment, expectation vs. reality, etc.

Posts are getting pretty long so I'll try to keep my short.

Mors-Subita had you kept reading my post you would have seen that I ended up conceding the argument to Johnie-Marz, in that only time will tell whether GW2 will have been a dissapointment or whether it will have lived up to its "general" hype.

These forums are full of people touting their own relative experience (an implied authority) as a way to factually substantiate their arguments. Johnie-Marz was arguing based on his own experience and as such empirical arguments (such as Johnie-Marz's) are never incontrovertible (undeniable) and self evident (not requiring proof), however much we may agree. Unfortunately that's the limiting nature of sensory experience, it is restricted by the inherent limitations of one's subjective perceptions of reality. What does wish, fulfillment, expectations and our understanding of reality all have in common? They are based and limited by one's perception of reality.

Originally posted by Byrhofen

1) First thing first, I never said that EA Games lied. One thing is to lie another is to intentionally mislead people. By claiming to have 1.7 mil subs (which they do if they coun't inactive accounts) EA Games was misleading people as to the real numbers of actual players playing the game (approx 600-700k). When EA claimed they had 1.7M subs, they had just sold almost 2M boxes, and people were still in their free 30 day period, so while I personally would not count any of them as subscribers, I would not try to claim they lied about the number of them at that time and state it as a fact. Which is exactly what you did, no matter how you try to spin it now.

2) I believe that EA Games has been disingenuous and misleading by their outright intention to deceive people as to the grim reality of their ever shrinking actual player base. Based on their use of language, it is clear and evident that EA Games is indeed intetionally finagling their numbers. Aha, so you change from giving FACTS to your belief's, nice one.

3) As to the servers... I didn't comment cause I believe that they are clear evidence of their attenuating active player base, plain and simple. You claimed they were merging servers, of which there is no evidence at all, now you try and switch that around as well, another FACT that is incorrect, not doing well here are you.

4) If I'm living under a rock, you're in complete and hopeless denial. SWTOR has been released, GW2 has not. SWTOR was considered a finished product and sold in stores, GW2 is still being developed (please don't be ignorant enough to compare game release sales with pre purchase/ pre order sales). The nature of mmorgs makes them "ever changing/updating", but you are being outright disingenuous (or hopelessly ignorant) by  claiming that an update (1.2 in SWTOR) is equivalent to the pre-release developmental status of a game. For all your incontrovertible use of language, you're making quite a fool out of yourself.  I was not the one to start making comparisons, and if it is fair for GW2 fanboys to compare the unfinished, unreleased GW2 to SWTOR in the favour of GW2, then comparisons are fair all round.

5) In fact, I did not even compare the games, I just gave an example of "finagled" numbers in relation to GW2, which as you rightly pointed out is not even released yet, so if they are doing that now, what makes you think they will not continue to do so? oh thats right, it was just a harmless mistake, and in no way intentional, my bad ;)

I'll try to keep this one short as well...

1) Never said they lied, just said that EA was being misleading

2) I'm not a member of EA's board, thus, my analysis of them being disingenuous and misleading has been and is (obviously) my opinion. However, when Erickson said that "our overal population of players has not changed, but our peak concurrent users has changed" he was being misleading.

3) Erickson: "Right now we’ve got our character transfer stuff underway on this side. It hasn’t rolled out yet - it will soon, to allow people to move to servers that will be better to their liking, get communities together. Long term we actually have to look at servers as a whole. The nice part about it is we have doubled how many people we can put on each server since launch." - server mergers.

4) Yes you did; you started comparing both games and I was merely giving context to differing status of both games.

5) Not sure what's worse, a game in development developing their game (corrections, improvements, etc) or a game that has been released finagling their numbers. Just a thought.

Originally posted by EsLafiel

I dont care for Swtor it bored me fast, however I know EA very well. They one of the most curropt gamming corpirations out there.

Hell they was even voted the worst corpiration in the usa.(which I dont agree with, there is a lot worse out there)

However unlike them ArenaNet have a good rep, since they made gw1. Theyve kept all there promise, they never show anything unless it. Already in the game and even for holidays they go out of there way to make new major content just for that holiday. 

ArenaNet have a good past, unlike EA.

Uh and you say way before, that if EA lied that would be considering as a lie and so they would get in trouble for Fraud.

Which is not true, Corpirations in the usa is consider a person. So tehy have the rights of one, and so they have free speech.

It was not that long ago, when a news corpiration(not saying it name, because it does not matter to this con) was tooking to court for doing false stories, and it was thrown out. Because they had the right to free speech and so they was allowed to say false things in there news.

Lastly can you plz tell me, where you get the info about how gw2 lied about how many beta sign up they had.

However I know it was open for only 48hrs, because I was there at the time watching.

Byrhofen, you got an answer for this?

Originally posted by dave6660

Those polls only show there's going to be a lot of broken hearted kids when GW2 releases and it doesn't live up to what they have it built up in their minds to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oynJcSnLSI4

If WoW clones of various shapes and sizes can get 8, 8.75 for something truly new that also looks good isn't surprising.

Originally posted by Varthander

Originally posted by dave6660

Those polls only show there's going to be a lot of broken hearted kids when GW2 releases and it doesn't live up to what they have it built up in their minds to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oynJcSnLSI4

LMAO - nice!

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by DeaconX

Given GW1 sold over 6 mil boxes, and the fact that GW2 will be keeping the same business model while providing SO MUCH MORE for players, it has some serious potential :)

Of course, boxes sold do not mean active players... but I will say this from personal experience.

SWTOR, we're already seeing a lot of threads where people are talking about low server populations.  I logged into GW1 PHROPHECIES, and just about every outpost I visited had people standing around in some pretty high end gear and chat was lively.

A few corrections: the 6-7 mil boxes also includes all the expansions/standalones separately, all that has been sold over the past 7 years.

 

As for Prophecies, that's kind of a skewed comparison, because in essence the whole GW community plays on 1 server for NA and EU, spread out over like 20 city hubs. It's not that challenging to see people around when it's all happening basically on 1 server. Which I personally always found a pro of the GW 1-world model: no matter whether the world was mostly instanced, whenever you wanted to play with friends, you could always find them, no issues with them being on another server or such.

They sold over 6 million boxes, prophecies/factions/nightfall/eye of the north, till 2009....

No, it wasn't over the 7 years... It was in 4 years... For 7 years the numbers are even bigger.

Since the game was released on April 2005.

" In April 2009, NCSoft announced that 6 million units of games in the Guild Wars series had been sold"

Originally posted by Byrhofen

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by thedarkess

Gw2 has been top hyped game for 2 years now. But that hype is not as blind as some people might think. Everything Arenanet promised is in the game and players had a chance to experience it by themself. Gw2 didn't build hype by releasing some expensive CGI cinematics like some other mmos did.

Very true... SWTOR essentially built its hype around its CGI cinematics, thus misleading the player base. One of the biggest proofs for this is the fact that corporate EA has to finagle their sub numbers and SWTOR is having to merge servers and provide ridiculous incentives (free months) to keep their ever shrinking playerbase. Just a matter of time before a cash shop is introduced in SWTOR (if not already in place) and become a f2p game.

Unless SWTOR aggressively changes/improves its game design, it will only end one of two ways; the way of lotr or tabula rasa.

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

There was a live streaming of beta signups for GW2. It took them 48 hours to get over 1 million signups (I've seen the numbers go beyond 1 million), but then shortly after they closed the signups. Too bad the streaming was so glitchy at the time it got close to 850k that I had to find a streaming of a streaming to watch it from there xD

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

It's not hype when they've been completely open about everything including most recently the shop. Yep no more nda look it up.

and it's not hype when every person who has played the beta so far has experienced exactly what the devs have been saying about their game all along.

get over it people, they've actually been completely honest which is a rarity i know for a company but it's still true.

truth > hype

Originally posted by Varthander

Originally posted by dave6660

Those polls only show there's going to be a lot of broken hearted kids when GW2 releases and it doesn't live up to what they have it built up in their minds to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oynJcSnLSI4

loved that one! i might have to borrow it sometime!

I liked GuildWars Trilogy. Im certain Ill like GuildWars 2. And IF I DONT. I can always come back 6months from now and experience all the updates at NO COST. Take that SWTOR and your 'free' month.

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

good point haha

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

carefull with statements like this ... Play the game for a month and then come back here say it's polished.

In all honesty do I think that the score will be a lot more accurate after next beta test, when many of the fans actually have tried it for maore than 40 minutes.

Yeah, it seems great but we are still just guessing right now. A whole weekend of playing it will give more than watching all the vids in the world.

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

carefull with statements like this ... Play the game for a month and then come back here say it's polished.

The videos and commentary alone tell me its more polished than TOR.

Originally posted by Adalwulff

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

carefull with statements like this ... Play the game for a month and then come back here say it's polished.

 

The videos and commentary alone tell me its more polished than TOR.

I do believe that GW2 (still in development) is more polished that TOR. It truly is a shame how much EA and Bioware have dropped the ball with TOR, its almost incomprehensible

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by joocheese

server mergers? really?

And name one company that has not "finagled" sub numbers for their MMO.

Even Blizzard did it / do it.

Hell, GW2 is not even out yet, and they felt the need to stretch the truth about beta sign ups and the length of time it took to get them ;P

wow... are you really going to compare a finished product (SWTOR) with an unfinished one (GW2)? A little desperate aren't we?

Well... It's not that hard to compare GW2 with SWTOR regarding the level of polishness... GW2 is already more polished and ready for release than SWOTR will ever be :D :D The truth..

carefull with statements like this ... Play the game for a month and then come back here say it's polished.

I've already played it for 3 days and had a much better experience than I had in SWTORs 3 days weekend beta or it's full 1 month when it was released... Enough for me.

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Cuathon

I cannot wait for GW2. I don't expect it to save the genre, I just expect it to be fantastic, like GW1.

Agreed. GW2 is not the mmo messiah, but it is a very large step in the right direction. See ya'll in the Mists! :-)

You better hope I don't see you there first! :-P