I am really concerned about the vocal minority of powergamers and their effect on the industry.

The people I am concerned about do the following:

1) Ignore dialog and quest text

2) Reduce the game to spreadsheets

3) disparage casual players

4) reach max level for the sake of bragging about the time it took

5) Complain on forums that the game had nothing to offer

They do this within a week of every game launch and it's hard for the public to get an objective view of the game.

These hardcore gamers are entitled to play this way and their opinion is valid but should be weighted appropriately in public arenas to show that they are a minority.

Anyone have any ideas on how to differentiate these vocal hardcore gamers from the general game playing public?

But you also have those that play mmo's without a level system and make up their own content and shun the typical themeparks.

Yes those games do exist and fill a wonderful niche of the industry. Unfortunately the mass public has previously ignored such games or not been properly exposed to them. I work in promotion and marketing for indie games and it is always an effort to market to the proper people without gaining the disdain of other groups.

Which game were you thinking of?

I think part of the problem is as follows:

1. Dialogue and quest text are not worth the time to read. I'm guessing many of us MMORPG gamers actually read quite a lot on the side. The quality of quest text and the way it tries to tie into the plot in general is pretty below average. Over time, you start skipping it either because you've seen it before or it's just not good enough to spend time reading.

2. Reducing the game to spreadsheets is part of the fun for a lot of people. Chess players even study previous Chess moves and players to get a better feel for the game. It's no surprise that people want to overanalyze MMORPG mechanics as well. Are the players that try to excel at chess more obnoxious than the ones that settle for just being average?

3. Disparaging casual players is pretty common not just in MMORPGs, but in life. People that are worse at something than other people get looked down on by society. Are you not good at your job? Society judges you. Are you not good at communicating with others? Society judges you. Since casual players tend to be worse at playing MMORPGs, they tend to take the brunt of the criticism.

However, in every one that I've played, there are always plenty of outlets for people looking to just have fun. The rub is that those people have to accept that they are not as good as other players. And there lies the contention. Casuals tend to think of themselves as talented at playing games. This is almost always not the case. 

4. I've never seen anyone really brag about how quick they got to max level personally. These days, people recognize that it pretty much means they have no life and usually mention it in some joking way. Getting to max level fast = time commitment, not talent. Most people understand this these days.

5. There are plenty of reasons why people stop liking games. I really don't see why this would be surprising to anyone. There is nothing wrong with someone expressing their opinion about why they don't like a game. It gives the rest of the players perspective. Hopefully people are mature enough to read and understand what they are reading and not jsut react to what they are reading.

And the really strange thing I find about your post is that you feel like powergamers are the vocal minority. If anything, I feel like there is a wide amount of critisism and praise from powergamers and casuals alike - possibly tilting in the casual gamers direction. I feel like there is a pretty solid mix of gamers that are casual and powergamers.

Originally posted by huskie77

Yes those games do exist and fill a wonderful niche of the industry. Unfortunately the mass public has previously ignored such games or not been properly exposed to them. I work in promotion and marketing for indie games and it is always an effort to market to the proper people without gaining the disdain of other groups.

 

Which game were you thinking of?

It doesnt matter which game Im refering as it would take away from my point.  I just wanted the masses to know that there is the option for everyone to forgo that and focus on a "role" within the world.

Originally posted by huskie77

I am really concerned about the vocal minority of powergamers and their effect on the industry.

The people I am concerned about do the following:

1) Ignore dialog and quest text

2) Reduce the game to spreadsheets

3) disparage casual players

4) reach max level for the sake of bragging about the time it took

5) Complain on forums that the game had nothing to offer

 

They do this within a week of every game launch and it's hard for the public to get an objective view of the game.

These hardcore gamers are entitled to play this way and their opinion is valid but should be weighted appropriately in public arenas to show that they are a minority.

Anyone have any ideas on how to differentiate these vocal hardcore gamers from the general game playing public?

Regarding the portion I highlighted, do you have any statistics showing this? It's not my playstyle, but then it seems like everyone who disagrees with the way someone else plays a game insists that type of play is in the minority. There are many assumptions or presumptions regarding a nebulous majority of MMO gamers that I've never seen any proof of whatsoever and personally think are just made up in order to push an agenda.

Pierth,

Excellent point! Unfortunately MMO's don't give out their metrics but we can use observation and common sense. Even though the numbers are most likely innacurate, WoW claims somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million subscriptions and SWTOR is purported to have around 1 million. Do you honestly reason that more than 5 million of Wow's players are hardcore, spreadsheet grinders or that 500,000 SWTOR players are max level? Maybe they are and then my point is less valid, but my experience and the perspective of the companies I have worked with is that they are indeed a minority.

Companies are trying to find a way to placate and engage the hardcore(and vocal) gamers while still appealing to the majority of players who are more casual in nature. You can see evidence of this in the game design itself. Do MMO's spend most of their effort creating endgame content first, or in crafting a rich experience for the first half of the game?

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by huskie77

Which game were you thinking of?

It doesnt matter which game Im refering as it would take away from my point.  I just wanted the masses to know that there is the option for everyone to forgo that and focus on a "role" within the world.

I long for that as well. I used to love that about UO(to an extent) and have really been excited by new games like Island Forge that are experimenting with game mechanics. Unfortunately it remains a niche market, so we are likely to have fewer choices in games.

Originally posted by huskie77

Pierth,

Excellent point! Unfortunately MMO's don't give out their metrics but we can use observation and common sense. Even though the numbers are most likely innacurate, WoW claims somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million subscriptions and SWTOR is purported to have around 1 million. Do you honestly reason that more than 5 million of Wow's players are hardcore, spreadsheet grinders or that 500,000 SWTOR players are max level? Maybe they are and then my point is less valid, but my experience and the perspective of the companies I have worked with is that they are indeed a minority.

Companies are trying to find a way to placate and engage the hardcore(and vocal) gamers while still appealing to the majority of players who are more casual in nature. You can see evidence of this in the game design itself. Do MMO's spend most of their effort creating endgame content first, or in crafting a rich experience for the first half of the game?

 

I just completely disagree. 

I look at Guild Wars 2 for instance and see an extremely casual friendly game. The content looks to be meant for every level the player is without a focus on endgame. 

In addition to PVE/PVP servers there should be also Hadcore/Casual servers and all the problems will be gone.

Originally posted by colddog04

 

I just completely disagree. 

 

I look at Guild Wars 2 for instance and see an extremely casual friendly game. The content looks to be meant for every level the player is without a focus on endgame. 

Could you be more specific about which part you disagree with?

I also hope that GW2 is casual friendly and I am sure it is. Most games are intended to be as that is considered to be the largest target market.

Originally posted by Ewanis

In addition to PVE/PVP servers there should be also Hadcore/Casual servers and all the problems will be gone.

Great idea! How large of a population would a game need to support so many servers without feeling empty though?

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by huskie77

Which game were you thinking of?

It doesnt matter which game Im refering as it would take away from my point.  I just wanted the masses to know that there is the option for everyone to forgo that and focus on a "role" within the world.

I long for that as well. I used to love that about UO(to an extent) and have really been excited by new games like Island Forge that are experimenting with game mechanics. Unfortunately it remains a niche market, so we are likely to have fewer choices in games.

I am with you there.

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by huskie77

Yes those games do exist and fill a wonderful niche of the industry. Unfortunately the mass public has previously ignored such games or not been properly exposed to them. I work in promotion and marketing for indie games and it is always an effort to market to the proper people without gaining the disdain of other groups.

 

Which game were you thinking of?

It doesnt matter which game Im refering as it would take away from my point.  I just wanted the masses to know that there is the option for everyone to forgo that and focus on a "role" within the world.

Haha, nice escape... I would like to know which games as well, but overall this has zero to do with the OP's post, but oh well...

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by colddog04

 

I just completely disagree. 

 

I look at Guild Wars 2 for instance and see an extremely casual friendly game. The content looks to be meant for every level the player is without a focus on endgame. 

Could you be more specific about which part you disagree with?

I also hope that GW2 is casual friendly and I am sure it is. Most games are intended to be as that is considered to be the largest target market.

Well, the first thing is your idea that because there are less than 50% powergamers, that they are a "vocal minority." It is of course technically true that they are a minority, but what is not true is that they are the ones overwhelmingly on the forums and such. They are not any more "vocal" than the casuals.

I really don't understand why you view it that way, but you do and I disagree with that.

What I was specifically talking about in my post was your idea that companies are developing games based on the power gaming crowds concerns. When I look at SWTOR, I see a completely casual gamer driven experience. When I look at Guild Wars 2, I see an excellent place to fit in for casuals.

The idea that developers are catering to the powergamers, to me, is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by huskie77

Yes those games do exist and fill a wonderful niche of the industry. Unfortunately the mass public has previously ignored such games or not been properly exposed to them. I work in promotion and marketing for indie games and it is always an effort to market to the proper people without gaining the disdain of other groups.

 

Which game were you thinking of?

It doesnt matter which game Im refering as it would take away from my point.  I just wanted the masses to know that there is the option for everyone to forgo that and focus on a "role" within the world.

Haha, nice escape... I would like to know which games as well, but overall this has zero to do with the OP's post, but oh well...

The game doesnt matter. A roleplay community which actually can be done (and is done in any game, incl. wow), which focuses not on quests or levels, classes or endgame. Focusing on you and your guilds "story" in a game that has no levels or endgame. Its an idea the players have gotten away from. So all people notice is the above people mentioned by the OP. If you want me to name games without quests and levels I can but Im sure you have an idea.

Originally posted by huskie77

Pierth,

Excellent point! Unfortunately MMO's don't give out their metrics but we can use observation and common sense. Even though the numbers are most likely innacurate, WoW claims somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million subscriptions and SWTOR is purported to have around 1 million. Do you honestly reason that more than 5 million of Wow's players are hardcore, spreadsheet grinders or that 500,000 SWTOR players are max level? Maybe they are and then my point is less valid, but my experience and the perspective of the companies I have worked with is that they are indeed a minority.

Companies are trying to find a way to placate and engage the hardcore(and vocal) gamers while still appealing to the majority of players who are more casual in nature. You can see evidence of this in the game design itself. Do MMO's spend most of their effort creating endgame content first, or in crafting a rich experience for the first half of the game?

What I reason is that in most of today's MMOs I believe that a majority of the players are very competitive, thus they desire the best gear, specs, macros, anything that may give them an edge. They don't necessarily want to be the ones doing the dirty work but they will try to find that information- look at all of those people who rely upon third party sites for walk-throughs and such. There are a great many gamers in this genre (perhaps not a majority) that view leveling as nothing more than a tutorial and look down on it with disdain as busywork. They also don't want to be troubled with thinking or figuring out how to be successful on their own.

I don't see what negative effect those that pave the way for the casuals who want the TL;DR version are having on games. All I've seen is they put pressure on devs to speed up production of content for endgame. And making it "hard for for the public to get an objective view of the game"- TBH I really only see that as a counterbalance to all the paid reviews publishers put out sugarcoating today's deeply-flawed games. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Could you be more specific about which part you disagree with?

I also hope that GW2 is casual friendly and I am sure it is. Most games are intended to be as that is considered to be the largest target market.

Well, the first thing is your idea that because there are less than 50% powergamers, that they are a "vocal minority." It is of course technically true that they are a minority, but what is not true is that they are the ones overwhelmingly on the forums and such. They are not any more "vocal" than the casuals.

 

I really don't understand why you view it that way, but you do and I disagree with that.

 

What I was specifically talking about in my post was your idea that companies are developing games based on the power gaming crowds concerns. When I look at SWTOR, I see a completely casual gamer driven experience. When I look at Guild Wars 2, I see an excellent place to fit in for casuals.

 

The idea that developers are catering to the powergamers, to me, is ludicrous.

I think we have a misunderstanding on one point and a general disagreement on another. I view them as the vocal minority because they are indeed less than 50%(although we can't know what %) and vocal because the majority of posts on forums are negative(we can count them together if you want).

The other point of contention is that you think I stated that companies are catering to powergamers. I stated that they are trying to find ways to cater to them while maintaining the larger group of casual gamers. I think we are in agreement that games are designed to be enjoyed in a variety of playstyles, with more focus on the largest population of players.

I think people who don't read the quest text are the majority in today's games. I mean why read the text when the game shows you exactly where to go and what to do...

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by huskie77

Pierth,

Excellent point! Unfortunately MMO's don't give out their metrics but we can use observation and common sense. Even though the numbers are most likely innacurate, WoW claims somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million subscriptions and SWTOR is purported to have around 1 million. Do you honestly reason that more than 5 million of Wow's players are hardcore, spreadsheet grinders or that 500,000 SWTOR players are max level? Maybe they are and then my point is less valid, but my experience and the perspective of the companies I have worked with is that they are indeed a minority.

Companies are trying to find a way to placate and engage the hardcore(and vocal) gamers while still appealing to the majority of players who are more casual in nature. You can see evidence of this in the game design itself. Do MMO's spend most of their effort creating endgame content first, or in crafting a rich experience for the first half of the game?

 

I don't see what negative effect those that pave the way for the casuals who want the TL;DR version are having on games. All I've seen is they put pressure on devs to speed up production of content for endgame. And making it "hard for for the public to get an objective view of the game"- TBH I really only see that as a counterbalance to all the paid reviews publishers put out sugarcoating today's deeply-flawed games. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

 

Well reasoned and well said. I agree that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The pressure put on devs for faster endgame content means less focus on the main(or tl:dr version) which could lead to loss of positive experiences for that group. This is why MMORPG game design is as complex a field as it is. Games like GW allowed for everyone to compete in PVP at max level right away and that innovation should be looked at again. The only other alternative I can see is specifically designing a two different games with one focusing on hardcore PVP, Raids and Dungeons and another focusing on the levelling journey. Perhaps these already exist in design but we, the gamers, have been confused or misled by blanket marketing.