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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Why Guild Wars 2 won't be an esport.

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69 posts found
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4817

4/18/12 9:35:52 PM#21

Who cares?

Going off this thread it sounds like none of you are part of the esport community. GW2 being an esport or not isn't a selling point for the game, from the standpoint of the average gamer. We don't play games because they are an esport, no one cares.

The only reason Anet announced this at all, is due to Anet wanting (as a longterm goal) to inject themselves into the Esport community. Furthermore, as has been stated already in this thread, complaining about balance in a game that is currently being balanced w/ no release date, is indeed monumentally stupid.

  Homitu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

4/18/12 9:37:10 PM#22

Even if one class was permanently 15% faster than all other classes, that would not "break" the class.  Speed could just as easily be a class mechanic, though it isn't in GW2.  You cited LoL as a balanced esport.  Every character has varying movement speed in that game.  Additionally, just like traits, you can choose to set your runes and masteries for speed increases with 100% uptime.  Just like everything else, though, there is a give and a take involved.  If you do that, you sacrifice stats elsewhere, just as it will be in GW2.  

  asianbboy101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 93

 
OP  4/18/12 9:57:16 PM#23
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Meowhead

So nobody read the interview that came out a week or so ago, where somebody from Arenanet pointed out that all the traits were severely imbalanced in beta and that they were currently working on them, and they were all placeholders and they realized most of them were balance breakers?

No?

...

Okay.  Carry on then.

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/traits-and-builds-interview-jon-peters

You mean this one Meowhead?  Don't forget to read part two!  It's an interesting article!

Oh, thanks Meowhead.  I appreciate the link.  I'll go read part two, right now.

thanks meowhead. gonna read it in a few minutes. i suppose that makes sense, they're just placeholders.

  asianbboy101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 93

 
OP  4/18/12 9:59:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by mackdawg19
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by DannyGlover

whether its balanced or not doesnt matter. just look at wow.

 

what are you saying...wow is very balance.

WoW is an MMO, so that in itself means its not balanced. On top of the fact they change something about each class every update. Nice try though.... :-)

Apparently he deleted the post where he claimed WoW is balanced.  Good, because that's a total lie.

i thought wow was pretty balanced. except one class here and there. such as the rogue.

  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1131

4/18/12 10:02:09 PM#25
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by mackdawg19
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by DannyGlover

whether its balanced or not doesnt matter. just look at wow.

 

what are you saying...wow is very balance.

WoW is an MMO, so that in itself means its not balanced. On top of the fact they change something about each class every update. Nice try though.... :-)

Apparently he deleted the post where he claimed WoW is balanced.  Good, because that's a total lie.

i thought wow was pretty balanced. except one class here and there. such as the rogue.

rogue? what are you smoking if you wanna call any class unbalanced, its the freaking paladin. least during wotlk they were, i'm pretty sure they kept their OPness through cata tho. they could tank the best in the most fights, best tank healers, and even topped dps charts on alot of fights too. rogues only had dps.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6144

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

4/18/12 10:09:37 PM#26

You guys still don't get it do you?  http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27150

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

4/18/12 10:13:28 PM#27
Originally posted by stayontarget

You guys still don't get it do you?  http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27150

An article several months old, based off of stuff that was outdated even in alpha, and where half the complaints were 'This isn't GW1'?

Okay.

 

  troublmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/11
Posts: 340

4/18/12 10:14:50 PM#28
Originally posted by aesperus

Who cares?

Going off this thread it sounds like none of you are part of the esport community. GW2 being an esport or not isn't a selling point for the game, from the standpoint of the average gamer. We don't play games because they are an esport, no one cares.

The only reason Anet announced this at all, is due to Anet wanting (as a longterm goal) to inject themselves into the Esport community. Furthermore, as has been stated already in this thread, complaining about balance in a game that is currently being balanced w/ no release date, is indeed monumentally stupid.

Unfortuantely this is not true.  Although esports isn't the only reason to play a game it is a huge sell value to continue playing the game.  This explains why so many people still play Halo 3, Modern Warfare 3, Battlefield 3, and Starcraft 2.

League of Legends took the DoTa community which might have been 450,000 players and now they have 10,000,000 players. eSports is a way to promote your game and give it meaning.  People like to play games that are competitive

Consider Starcraft 2 has had no DLC since its launch two years ago and it still has 6,000,000 active players in North America, 9,000,000 in Europe and 6,000,000 in Korea.

eSports does a few things.  First it shows people how to play the game, effectively removing the need to institute a lot of tutorials on how things work.  It also keeps the game fresh.  Since there is a prize bounty people are constantly looking at new ways to get a 1up on the competition.  It means that a nobody can come forward and marine/SCV rush his way to GSL finals.

Without eSports games have a really hard time surviving.  It is hard to keep something relevant when a game doesn't have fans.

Consider this, how many amateur criquet leagues are there in the United States?  Little to none, right?  How many are there in India... hundreds.  Quite simply America has no professional criquet teams and if it did, mroe people would play it.

America has had a BOOM in soccer in the last twenty years largely in part because of major European soccer players coming to play in newer American leagues and thus making them more competitive to watch.  As well you can look at Wayne Gretzsky's moving to America as a strong reason why hockey went from being a fringe sport to a very popular winter sport.

Guild Wars 2 might be able to survive if its not an esport but if it is... it will definitely do a lot better.

Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

4/18/12 10:17:57 PM#29


Originally posted by Kreedz
This was an insightful post which included many aspects which gave credence to your opinions and conjecture, thank you for posting such an indepth 'article' on why GW2 wont be an eSports.

Well, obviously, the TC is WCG CEO since he single-handedly decides what will be an eSport and what won't.
 
P.S. This board is getting more hilarious with each passing day.

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

4/18/12 10:20:46 PM#30
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by stayontarget

You guys still don't get it do you?  http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27150

An article several months old, based off of stuff that was outdated even in alpha, and where half the complaints were 'This isn't GW1'?

Okay.

 

Hahaha, yeah. Stayontarget was off target there.

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6144

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

4/18/12 10:25:03 PM#31
Originally posted by KhinRunite
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by stayontarget

You guys still don't get it do you?  http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27150

An article several months old, based off of stuff that was outdated even in alpha, and where half the complaints were 'This isn't GW1'?

Okay.

 

Hahaha, yeah. Stayontarget was off target there.

If you wish to believe that its ok by me but I do find it odd that some of the issues that were brought up in Nov still exist to date.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15845

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/18/12 10:33:35 PM#32
Originally posted by Meowhead

So nobody read the interview that came out a week or so ago, where somebody from Arenanet pointed out that all the traits were severely imbalanced in beta and that they were currently working on them, and they were all placeholders and they realized most of them were balance breakers?

No?

...

Okay.  Carry on then.

I certainly hope they have that taken care of before the 27th, these forums will be ugly if they don't.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

4/18/12 10:42:39 PM#33
Originally posted by stayontarget

If you wish to believe that its ok by me but I do find it odd that some of the issues that were brought up in Nov still exist to date.

10.  Professions have quite a lot of differentation.  You cannot do with an elementalist what you can do with a necro what you can do with a mesmer which you can do with an engineer.  There's definitely a difference between every profession, and that has been made more clear in beta.

9.  That's true.  It's not Guild Wars.

8.  Some elites appear to be unbalanced still, but many of the elites have been shown to be beatable and not as big a deal as they were originally made out to be (You can totally kill somebody in tornado mode, without using an elite)

7.  There's now more attributes and itemization in GW2, and there's quite a lot of choices shown in the traits.  Problem solved.

6.  This is actually point 9, and is actually a point in the favor of why GW2 PvP is designed to be an esport (A single format).  So this actually works against you.

5.  This is a combination of 'It's not Guild Wars' and 'I presonally had problems controlling things'.  They've also added things like on-cursor ground targetting, which speeds things up a lot.

4.  Haven't heard complaints on this lately, so either they fixed it in beta, or it's not as big of a problem as this guy made it out to be.  Or a combination of both.

3.  Profession cues being a problem isn't neccessarily that big of a deal.  It just means recognizing professions quickly becomes a skill.  Skill cues and status cues have both changed and been improved since they talked about it.  (So solved)   The racial cue thing seems weird to me.  Not that big of a deal, but whatever.

2.  Visual effects they already fixed up partially, and are still working on.  The numbers dont' seem THAT big to me, that's partly a matter of personal taste.  The thing about cross-class combos doesn't take into account that enemy/friendly fields are color coded now, so actually a problem that Arenanet dealt with.  A combination of solved, personal taste, and working on.

1.  Skills are still under iteration.  In fact, they did a major overhaul of necromancer weapon skills lately that really makes them balance much better and has cleaner themes on weapons.

C'mon dude.  ... and 80% of what they said can still be summed up as 'I don't like the way they did it because I liked the way it showed up in GW1', on TOP of what I just said about it.

Seriously.  You need better material if this is the best you can come up with.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

4/18/12 10:51:51 PM#34

I remember that article, it was frankly a bunch of biased bullshit, most people had already come to that conclusion it seemed, but fanboys of other games will do whatever they can.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

4/18/12 10:59:13 PM#35
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by mackdawg19
Originally posted by asianbboy101
Originally posted by DannyGlover

whether its balanced or not doesnt matter. just look at wow.

 

what are you saying...wow is very balance.

WoW is an MMO, so that in itself means its not balanced. On top of the fact they change something about each class every update. Nice try though.... :-)

Apparently he deleted the post where he claimed WoW is balanced.  Good, because that's a total lie.

i thought wow was pretty balanced. except one class here and there. such as the rogue.

Try the hunter from level 10 to 75.  If one team had more than 2 'loomed hunters, they'd pretty much roll you.

  Spezz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/09
Posts: 144

4/18/12 11:01:45 PM#36
Originally posted by asianbboy101

 

Dude, I prepurchased this game on the day it was released...25 ce copies.

 

And i still continue to play gw1 couple hours a week.

 

Why did you buy 25 CE copies?

  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

4/18/12 11:01:50 PM#37
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by stayontarget

If you wish to believe that its ok by me but I do find it odd that some of the issues that were brought up in Nov still exist to date.

10.  Professions have quite a lot of differentation.  You cannot do with an elementalist what you can do with a necro what you can do with a mesmer which you can do with an engineer.  There's definitely a difference between every profession, and that has been made more clear in beta.

9.  That's true.  It's not Guild Wars.

8.  Some elites appear to be unbalanced still, but many of the elites have been shown to be beatable and not as big a deal as they were originally made out to be (You can totally kill somebody in tornado mode, without using an elite)

7.  There's now more attributes and itemization in GW2, and there's quite a lot of choices shown in the traits.  Problem solved.

6.  This is actually point 9, and is actually a point in the favor of why GW2 PvP is designed to be an esport (A single format).  So this actually works against you.

5.  This is a combination of 'It's not Guild Wars' and 'I presonally had problems controlling things'.  They've also added things like on-cursor ground targetting, which speeds things up a lot.

4.  Haven't heard complaints on this lately, so either they fixed it in beta, or it's not as big of a problem as this guy made it out to be.  Or a combination of both.

3.  Profession cues being a problem isn't neccessarily that big of a deal.  It just means recognizing professions quickly becomes a skill.  Skill cues and status cues have both changed and been improved since they talked about it.  (So solved)   The racial cue thing seems weird to me.  Not that big of a deal, but whatever.

2.  Visual effects they already fixed up partially, and are still working on.  The numbers dont' seem THAT big to me, that's partly a matter of personal taste.  The thing about cross-class combos doesn't take into account that enemy/friendly fields are color coded now, so actually a problem that Arenanet dealt with.  A combination of solved, personal taste, and working on.

1.  Skills are still under iteration.  In fact, they did a major overhaul of necromancer weapon skills lately that really makes them balance much better and has cleaner themes on weapons.

C'mon dude.  ... and 80% of what they said can still be summed up as 'I don't like the way they did it because I liked the way it showed up in GW1', on TOP of what I just said about it.

Seriously.  You need better material if this is the best you can come up with.

True story.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Skyy_High

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/10
Posts: 140

4/18/12 11:02:59 PM#38

Came here foolishly expecting a thread about Conquest as a format, or at least something worth talking about.

I got an OP bitching about imbalance in the trait system, in beta. Because THAT CAN NEVER BE CHANGED EVER!

Seriously?

[edit] Oh someone just posted that QQ forum thread? Joy, I get to repost something I just said about 5 minutes ago:

 

10 - Profession overlap really isn't a problem. A warrior is going to do long range AoE damage differently than a necro; a thief has a much different toolbox than a guardian or ele. Everything can be simplified to "exactly the same", it just depends on how much reductionism you're willing to employ. 

9 - Most of this is subjective, and the parts that aren't subjective (ie, "no more juking Bull's Strike") can't really be argued against until GW2 is mature enough for players to see if they can develop similarly skill-rewarding tactics. Considering the huge toolbox of skills we have to work with, I think that's a given, but either way it's not something that can be profitably argued one way or the other right now. 

8 - Elites have been incredibly toned down in power. Look at Lich Form now, it's a shadow of its former self at the time that this post was made (and thank goodness...). Elites initially had CDs in the 12 minute range; now they're much less powerful, but they have CDs in the 1-3 minute range. 

7 - This entire argument is based on the notion that attributes can be optimized. This remains to be seen. Even if that IS the case, how is that different than GW1, or indeed any other competitive game with stats? The weapons argument is bunk; building a universal bar in GW1 was impossible because the skills were so narrow in function, and the difference between one skill and another was often small but important. GW2 weapon skills are NOT your entire build, and they're designed to be at least somewhat useful in every situation. Traits are given two sentences worth of mention; since this article was written, the new trait system has been rolled out, and it provides a ton of build-making opportunity. 

6 - He cites a number of problems with the capture point format, and frankly this deserves its own thread. I don't agree with the people who think CP is a terrible competitive PvP format; I think it'll accomplish the goal of getting people to fight at centralized locations while still rewarding large-scale mobility and split tactics that GW1 GvG did well. I also think it'll be more easy to pick up and learn than GvG, which is important to getting new blood into the format. I DO wish, hope, and think that they'll add more formats to competitive PvP in the future. 

5 - Uh....this is flat out stupid. GW2 has probably four more keys necessary than GW1: skills 9 and 0, your dodge, and your weapon swap. F1 - F4 were used for weapon swaps in GW1, and everything else (tab, ctrl, etc) is basically exactly the same. 

4 - Again, fucking stupid. First off, GW2 does an amazing job of targeting the player / enemy that you're attacking without you ever clicking on them or pressing tab; just start wailing on him with your attack skills (aimed, naturally), and you'll auto-target. Secondly, seriously, how is this different than GW1? If you want to target something, you click it!

3 - People learned animations in GW1, they'll learn them in GW2. The giant red circles of death are a pretty easy indicator for you to NOT STAND HERE, honestly. Professions WILL be more difficult to determine, yes, but that'll only last for the first 5 seconds of a match. The redundancy question with conditions has been solved by the recent boon and condition revamp, and conditions are really quite easy to spot visually without looking at healthbars.

2 - Yeah, they know the particle efffects are a bit much. Expect them to be turned down, and expect them to give you a slider to allow you to turn them down further. Health is pretty darn easy to see, in practice, because that health orb is glowing and animating as you lose health. 

1 - Monotonous skill design...you're looking at these skills incorrectly. You can't one-for-one compare GW1 skills to GW2 skills. In GW1, skills were pretty much ALL you could do. Yeah, you could move around a bit, but for the most part everything useful was done via skills. You are required to move and think about your positioning SO much more in GW2 (and I'm just talking PvE here; NOBODY has enough experience with GW2 PvP to do a fair comparison). Splitblade is not just "projectile damage in an area"; you need to AIM that thing, you need to use it at the proper range and from the right angle to hit the right number of people / mobs, you need to decide if you want to use it as a ranged AoE or as a single-target shotgun bleed applicator. In GW1, "ranged AoE damage" is a fireball. Those kind of "fire and forget" simple skills are your "1" skills. Everything else can pretty much be spammed on recharge for some useful effect, OR they can be used properly for much greater effect. The only skill on a ranger's axe + warhorn set that might use some spicing up is Hunter's Call, because it's really just a simple DoT and it could really  use some additional control effect (at least a blind).

I totally agree that playing with opportunity costs should be a thing...but they already do that. Mesmer mantras, channeled skills (god help you if you use one of these right before you need to dodge, you just completely wasted that skill), stances and other buffs with incredibly short effects, signets that turn off their passive buffs when you activate them, skills that have an additional effect on a succesful block, weapon skills on 30s+ recharges, weapon skills that have additional effects if you hit from behind or the side, etc, etc...there are plenty of ways in which they reward proper skill use through opportunity costs. 

 

TL;DR: it's a huge theorycrafting post that is equal parts outdated, subjective, and speculation. 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4817

4/18/12 11:04:11 PM#39
Originally posted by stayontarget
Originally posted by KhinRunite
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by stayontarget

You guys still don't get it do you?  http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27150

If you wish to believe that its ok by me but I do find it odd that some of the issues that were brought up in Nov still exist to date.

They exist, because those complaints are based entirely off of theorycrafting instead of actual ingame experience. One only has to look at the last page of that same thread to see that.

Why do we see some of the same flawed arguments cropping up now? Because ignorance doesn't go away. There is never a shortage of people who would rather spew nonsense than take the time to do some research. That's too much like actual work.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4817

4/18/12 11:15:31 PM#40
Originally posted by Meowhead

4.  Haven't heard complaints on this lately, so either they fixed it in beta, or it's not as big of a problem as this guy made it out to be.  Or a combination of both.

It's not (and I don't think this was ever a problem for as far back as i've been following the game). You tab through enemies, not through random objects. (Interactable objects usually have a colored shader applied, but you have to walk up to them and hit 'F' to interact with them. As for friendlies, I'm not sure if there is friendly tab targetting / target of target, but you can see their health bars, and their are no targetted heals anyway so it's not as necessary.

3.  Profession cues being a problem isn't neccessarily that big of a deal.  It just means recognizing professions quickly becomes a skill.  Skill cues and status cues have both changed and been improved since they talked about it.  (So solved)   The racial cue thing seems weird to me.  Not that big of a deal, but whatever.

This is another non-issue to be honest. There are so many different cues per-profession that if you can't tell what you're facing, you woul have to be blind or a complete retard to be honest. Some examples: Engineers always run around with a large backpack (exclusive to them). Necros always have minions or dark smoke of death floating around them (or flies). Guardians always have bright blue attacks, and a shield boon that you can see on their arm. Rangers have their pets and leather armor, thief also wear leather but generally have a different look and different weapons from the ranger & engineer. Eles... well, come on who can't spot an ele a mile away. The only one that really doesn't have anything distinct per-se is the warrior. And that is exactly what makes him distinct, lol. He's the only class that doesn't have anything special following him around.

2.  Visual effects they already fixed up partially, and are still working on.  The numbers dont' seem THAT big to me, that's partly a matter of personal taste.  The thing about cross-class combos doesn't take into account that enemy/friendly fields are color coded now, so actually a problem that Arenanet dealt with.  A combination of solved, personal taste, and working on.

1.  Skills are still under iteration.  In fact, they did a major overhaul of necromancer weapon skills lately that really makes them balance much better and has cleaner themes on weapons.

C'mon dude.  ... and 80% of what they said can still be summed up as 'I don't like the way they did it because I liked the way it showed up in GW1', on TOP of what I just said about it.

Seriously.  You need better material if this is the best you can come up with.

Just wanted to elaborate on a few points in green.

The only point of his which still remains valid is 'you are locked into the skills each weapon provides'. Which again isn't a flaw as much as an 'I want my old GW 1 skill system' rant.

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