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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » PVP moves to the forums

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69 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15331

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/16/12 3:22:35 AM#21
Originally posted by Alders

I'm not saying build a game around hardcore players, i'm just saying they know the game better than anyone else, including BW.

 

Knowing how to play a game, isn't the same thing as understanding how the game is put together. I only MOD games myself, but some of that requires a level of work you find in everyday development, depending on how much scripting you need for your mod.

The main thing you learn is that one thing can break many things even when its focused on the most simple or basic function.

As an example one wrong variable in a dialogue script can break every single piece of dialogue as well as the npcs in general associated to the questline its tied to in Skyrim. That mistake could be something so simple you don't think about it. Kind of like writing their instead of there when you're in a rush.

When it comes to combat, it can get a lot more delicate than in those areas above. Many gamers just don't seem to understand building a game is not as they think it is. If they did we wouldn't have all of these "how can one patch break so much stuff!!" threads we see for every game.

They don't understand in many cases a feature is working during testing, but something else bugs outs or breaks else where during the transition to a live build, and the feature comes out broken. It happens all the time whether it is a major or minor mishap.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2678

4/16/12 3:22:52 AM#22

The devs won't listen and the fanbois give them some (poor) excuses to do so. I only ever played one beta weekend of SWTOR and I knew after that first weekend that the game was complete and utter shit, I've played MMOKRPGs with more of a reason to keep you in em than SWTOR had.

 

From my POV I hope SWToR crashes and burns and takes BW and a good piece of EA with it, it is just better for everyone involved.

 

To anyone getting ready to lynch me for saying BW should go up in flames: It is very likely that the BW you know and loved has been dead for some time now, it tanked ME3's ending, it shit all over the carpet with TOR and if this is how things are looking I'd rather never see a Dragon Age 3 (loved the first, enjoyed the 2nd).

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/16/12 7:05:19 PM#23

The person who posted the original thread on the swtor forums was banned for making the thread and can no longer post.

  Deewe

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 1976

4/16/12 7:11:58 PM#24
Originally posted by spookydom
Originally posted by Praetalus

 
That entire post reeks of arrogance. It's obnoxious.

Seems to me to come from a very frustrated person with a lot of passion for the game.

Could be but he's right PvP is quite a mess in TOR right now and Gabe is lost in the process.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/16/12 11:29:52 PM#25

The error in your thinking is this:

"If only EA would make better games, they would make more profit."

They know they sell tons of games, no matter how mediocre their games are. They make their profit, because 90% of all gamers never go to any forums and just buy from hearsay or because they know and love the IP. That is why EA mostly buys existing and succesful studios, milks their franchises as long as it lives from former glory and then buy the next studio when it stops working. Expect them to buy the next studio soon, since Bioware apparently doesn't deliver as expected anymore.

They don't need to make good games to have their profit. They just need a majority to believe it long enough so they sell enough copies. They brush you off because they can, and we few critical gamers are a minority, and 90% of all game mags in their hands as well. As proven by the absurd high ratings of games lik DA2, ME3 and SWTOR. Even if you like these games, NONE of them was worth the 90%+ ratings by far. The Empire of Evil aka EA has enough power and influence that we critical gamers no longer matter.

 

Originally posted by Greyhooff

I know the person who posted the original thread on the swtor forums, he was banned for making the thread and can no longer post.

If that is true, it just shows how this company has fallen.

The principle for fair debate has been for over 2000 years "audiatur et altera pars" - the other side may be heard as well. If you kill that principle, you ruin reason itself.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/17/12 3:04:56 AM#26

This was posted by the original poster redmarx on darthhater.com (a SWTOR fansite run by Curse) and was also deleted (guess darthhater got an email from EA):

wowmarx wrote:

I only posted it once, and didn't repost it anywhere. I didn't even add to it, I simply let others discuss the thread, which they did, and the discussion was fantastic, cooperative and constructive.

Dozens - really, dozens - of people said it was the "post of the  year" and "the best PVP post" and "Bioware should hire this person", etc.

It had hundreds of posts agreeing with it. I wanted to thank people at some point in the thread, and reply to my PMs etc, but I was banned before I could.

The entire thread was quietly deleted. I can't even reply to all the PMs I got thanking me for writing the post and saying that they agreed.

They even deleted my forum signature, when I click on that feature it says "Sorry, you are not permitted to have a signature."

This seems like rather special treatment.

Someone posted about the deletions of both the original post and the re-posts others did of the original post - and that thread got closed, no doubt it will be deleted shortly also:

 


ErthAnjil
Joined: Dec 2011
Mods Banning players | Today , 04:37 AM
   
Is there anything we can do about the mods abusing their power permanently banning anyone for posting redmarx post? I think it's getting out of hand with them trying to silence us for a post of constructive criticism that a majority of the players agreed with.
  
Vaipyr's Avatar
Vaipyr
Joined: Jan 2012
Today , 04:40 AM
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErthAnjil
Is there anything we can do about the mods abusing their power permanently banning anyone for posting redmarx post? I think it's getting out of hand with them trying to silence us for a post of constructive criticism that a majority of the players agreed with.
The same 12 or so people spamming it over and over =/= majority. Also the bans were well justified.
 
http://sigs.enjin.com/sig-swtor/dd2c081cbedbe6c4.png
 
ekaikaforge's Avatar
ekaikaforge
Joined: Jun 2011
Today , 04:41 AM
   
What is wrong with a thread of ideas to fix PvP?

Can a yellow name please explain why that discussion violates the forum rules? There are a hundred other idea threads out there.
   
 
Ardim's Avatar
Ardim
Joined: Sep 2009
Today , 04:42 AM
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaikaforge
What is wrong with a thread of ideas to fix PvP?

Can a yellow name please explain why that discussion violates the forum rules? There are a hundred other idea threads out there.
This. Honestly :/
 
The Alabaster Legacy
Server: Canderous Ordo
Isaac: Sith Marauder Skradin: Mercenary Washington: Operative
 
Arzhanin's Avatar
Arzhanin
Joined: Jul 2010
Today , 04:53 AM
   
Hello folks,

While we understand you can get frustrated at moderation actions taken which you do not agree with, please note that discussion of specific moderation actions is not allowed on the forum. This includes discussion regarding content that was part of a post that was moderated.

If you have a concern about moderation or specific moderation action taken by us, you may feel free to e-mail communitysupport@swtor.com, so that we can receive your concerns directly.

We'll be closing this thread now. Thanks for your understanding.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6827

4/17/12 3:10:48 AM#27


Originally posted by cahenderson

So, there's some guerrilla forum posting going on over in the PVP forums on the Official site. One of the subcribers posted a constructive thread where he made suggestions on what they could change to 'fix' pvp. His original post was outright deleted after significant community activity. Now, various posters are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole with the mods (always a good sign) and continue to post the original thread content in differing titled threads. Here's the original post:
 
 
When mods get down into the dirt like this, it never ends well. Teala was right, "TORtanic" indeed.


Do you find that post constructive? I think I just found your problem...


Adequate moderation, I say.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/17/12 6:59:39 AM#28

Quite an interesting conversation in this video with Totalbiscuit's friends about the issue, clearly this is not the only example, just the most recent one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pugsvos4y5g&hd=1&t=5m53s

 

"when it [swtor] did the beta... and you came up with any criticism on the beta forums... they just banned you... because of course you're a troll"

  DanitaKusor

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/17/09
Posts: 530

4/17/12 7:17:52 AM#29

That isn't a full quote of the post that was deleted.  That's actually a quote of the second post in the thread.  The first one was twice as long and was basically "I told you so" where the poster quoted comments he had made in pervious weeks.  Then he posted what the opening poster here has quoted.

A lot of valid points in his second post, just kinda ruined by the big "I told you so" post he did first.  Had he posted just the second post it might not have been deleted.

The Enlightened take things Lightly

  User Deleted
4/17/12 7:28:38 AM#30

It sounds like the real Republic is the forum posters, and the Imps are the staff censoring them. Rise up Rebels, overthrow the Tyrant! Pvp in that game is a series of ranged stuns. One time my Smuggler hung in the air being stunned long enough for me to walk the dog it seemed.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/17/12 7:56:51 AM#31

In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/17/12 8:09:26 AM#32
Originally posted by Icewhite

In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

 

I'd agree with that.

 

I'd also say I'm not sure what bringing the discussion here is supposed to accomplish.   If the community over there *points at TOR* is really that upset... you know how you send a mesaage?   You all cancel your accounts and see how much the mods love their forums with no income.

 

Its really pointless to complain about how a company runs a game.. which you don't have to play.. while you keep funding their ability to act the way they do.

 

Its like these forums .. likely the largest complaint is what the MMO market has turned into.   Yet we keep buying the games (I'm very guilty of this too).   The only messages companies understand are...   +$  and -$....   -$ sends the best message  when you are unhappy.

 

*edit*  I'd also say this works best when nobody actually posts they are going to cancel.   They simply cancel and leave.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/17/12 8:13:09 AM#33
Originally posted by Antarious
Originally posted by Icewhite

In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

 

I'd agree with that.

 

I'd also say I'm not sure what bringing the discussion here is supposed to accomplish.   If the community over there *points at TOR* is really that upset... you know how you send a mesaage?   You all cancel your accounts and see how much the mods love their forums with no income.

 

Its really pointless to complain about how a company runs a game.. which you don't have to play.. while you keep funding their ability to act the way they do.

 

Its like these forums .. likely the largest complaint is what the MMO market has turned into.   Yet we keep buying the games (I'm very guilty of this too).   The only messages companies understand are...   +$  and -$....   -$ sends the best message  when you are unhappy.

 

*edit*  I'd also say this works best when nobody actually posts they are going to cancel.   They simply cancel and leave.

 

What if you don't want to damage the game and actually want the game to succeed? Unsubbing doesn't help that.

Redmarx did also have a post "I told you so" attached to the post in the OP.

In it, he quoted his old posts from the PTS forum from several weeks before 1.2 came out, in which he accurately predicted all the problems with 1.2 and what the complaints would be.

It showed he had a good grasp of the problems and warned Bioware on the test server.

  kb4blu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/10/03
Posts: 658

4/17/12 8:24:50 AM#34

"stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice

That would be a big mistake.

Translation...

Make the game the way I want it. Screw everyone else.

SWTOR is not a game for the Hardcore.  Its was made for casuals.

Get over it.

 

  Kaocan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/09
Posts: 1312

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.

4/17/12 8:47:21 AM#35

The gear imblance at cap is the primary problem with PvP in SWTOR. When someone new entering the 50 bracket comes in, hits a power, that on the tooltip says it does 1800-2400 damage over 3 seconds, and sees it hit 5 people for no more that 75 points each on 3 ticks.... I dont care how much class and power balancing you do, it wil never matter to the new guy coming into that bracket if they never have a chance in hell of even being a productive part of a match. Their only hope is to do enough warzones to finsh enough daily and weekly quests to get some gear that will help. But since Tier I PvP gear might as well be paper compared to BM gear, that uselessness for new level 50s will NEVER go away. BW designed level 50 gear with too steep of a stat climb. Thier changes in 1.2 made it even more of a problem, because now those without much of a chance of helping in the match due to the gear disadvantage now get nothing for rewards in a match. Instead of thier new system being something to punish the AFKers, what it did is kil the new level 50s who dont have the gear yet. A broad sweeping change to fix a problem without looking at the side effects beofre it was implimented. They screwed up, and as a result, they are going to lose a TON of players.

(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/17/12 12:49:20 PM#36

Looks like lots of posters are playing ban-chicken with the mods in protest of the censorship of constructive threads about the 1.2 patch on swtor.com

Dozens of these keep appearing and getting whack-a-mole deleted:

 

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

4/17/12 1:19:36 PM#37

They are definately listening to the wrong person. You want to get ideas for Content or expansion or retuning of instances you listen to casuals you want to do PVP you do NOT listen to casuals. BW Deserve what they got, they earned it.

 

  Barbarbar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/10
Posts: 258

4/17/12 10:13:49 PM#38
Originally posted by cahenderson

So, there's some guerrilla forum posting going on over in the PVP forums on the Official site. One of the subcribers posted a constructive thread where he made suggestions on what they could change to 'fix' pvp. His original post was outright deleted after significant community activity. Now, various posters are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole with the mods (always a good sign) and continue to post the original thread content in differing titled threads. Here's the original post:

 

 

 

Originally Posted by redmarx
allow me to preempt the responses: 

"biowarea and 1.2 are awesome you just haven't gotten used to the changes yet, well fine you predicted all the issues so biowarea should hire you and fire their lead developers, stop being an egomaniac, you're wrong, i'm an ea employee and i'm loving 1.2 and so are all these fictitious friends of mine, etc..."

here's the most important response: What is done is done, no use crying over 1.2 now, so what would you do to fix it?

Fine, i'll give it a shot. I expect to get flamed but alea iacta est, here we go:

General:

- put all the ctrl+x type keybinds on the keybinds menu so they can be changed. (looking at you "ambience")
- add option to remove or move the red text spam in the middle of the screen and its accompanying noise.
- allow buffs/debuffs to be resized and moved independently from unit frames.
- reduce some of the costs on the legacy stuff, as an aggregate it is simply too much, this isn't korea.
- merge the servers: Time to stop being arrogant, admit that you screwed up and the game needs this step to improve and draw new players. Cross-server queueing will only help if people have healthy guilds and a server community to come back to after the warzone is done.

Pvp rewards:

- rewards for losing become 75% of the rewards for winning in non-rated, 50% of the reward for winning in rated.
- if you get vote-kicked or leave a warzone early, you earn no rewards.
- reduce cost of pvp consumables.
- return to same credits, xp, etc rewards for warzones as pre-1.2.
- let unbalanced warzones shut down like they should.
- reduce the gap between recruit gear and bm gear by boosting the stats on recruit gear to help new players.
- add mods and enhancements to the pvp vendors covering stat combinations such as crit/surge, crit/power, etc - each costing 1/2 of the value of a bm or wh set piece.
- add a symbolic +1 to every stat on high rated warzone gear so it is ever so slightly better than war hero gear.

Class balance:

- equalise the expertise benefits to mitigation/healing/damage to the same ratios as pre-1.2.
- revert all class balance changes to pre-1.2 when the overall balance was frankly a lot better.

- after that (so going from pre-1.2 class balance), specific class balance changes for empire and republic mirror classes (i'll use empire terminology from here on) like so:
- reduce the duration of the uninterruptible buff on healing spec bounty hunter energy shield from 12 to 6 seconds.
- increase the number of targets benefiting from kolto missile to 8, increase the heal by 20%, reduce kolto residue to 3%/6%.
- reduce the cooldown of jolt for deception assassins to 6 seconds talented, and swap the positions of the talents fade and disjunction in their respective trees.
- for powertech, move puncture talent up to 4th tier of the advanced prototype tree.
- give snipers the 20% heal debuff, they do need it.
- remove friendly force pull extrication from sorcerors, give it to healing spec operatives with the same graphic as powertech grapple, replace extrication with a 25% damage reduction for 6 secs every 2mins defensive cooldown.
- reduce the damage of chain lightning by 10%.
- make thundering blast instant-cast and creeping terror do the same damage but over 6 seconds instead of 18 to encourage non-hybrid specs.
- reduce the damage of operative backstab by 20%, reduce its cooldown from 9 seconds to 6 seconds.
- since they cannot code an actual fix to the double hidden strike bug and the double force bending bug, simply use this bandaid: Dark infusion and hidden strike both have a 1.5 second cooldown (will prevent double dipping)
- increase the cooldown of undying rage to 3 mins with a talent in tier 4 of carnage tree to make it 90secs, keep camouflage at 50% with no booster talent.
- change juggernaut talent decimate to increase damage of smash by 5/10% rather than 10/20%.

Those are all the changes i feel qualified to make. There might be others that i have missed, i'm just writing this post as i go along. Evaluate the changes for 1 week, tweak class balance, then introduce rated warzones pre-season. Evaluate again for 1-2 weeks, tweak class balance, and then launch season 1.

Finally 2 very important things for biowarea:

- let people make level 50s on pts: There was no testing done for 1.2 because of this simple yet somehow inexplicably lacking process, give players the tools, add a npc that sells xp for free, it's that simple. The ranked warzone failure was due entirely to this, because all your "ranked warzone focus testing" on 1.2 pts had no participants.

- stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice: They know your game better than you do. You might think you have solid internal metrics but you are wrong, your metrics are ****. Your best players analyse the metagame better than you can, with better contextual knowledge from actual gameplay experience, so listen to them carefully and you won't make mistakes like 1.2 again.

So many negative changes occurred because biowarea listened to the players who don't really understand the game and don't approach pvp in an analytical manner - learn to filter the feedback so you can ignore the whining of bad/inexperienced/incoherent players and listen to the analysis and experience of good players. 

How can you differentiate the two? 

You need to listen to people who have been level 50 in dedicated pvp guilds for a long time, who play in premades and spot the imbalances, and further down the line those with the highest ratings - engage with them and turn pvp class balance matters into a dialogue rather than a soliloquy.

...


Ps: Get ilum working. There's a long and well-written thread on this pvp forum for you to read and use for a full ilum redesign. Why have you ignored that thread? Swallow your misplaced pride, use the solutions savvy players are offering you for free, and get it done.
 
When mods get down into the dirt like this, it never ends well. Teala was right, "TORtanic" indeed.

Some guy saying they should do as he say, not as their devs say or other people on the forum, cause they are all dumb. Yeah right.

  Coltaine00

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/12
Posts: 51

4/18/12 7:58:36 PM#39
Originally posted by Barbarbar
 

Some guy saying they should do as he say, not as their devs say or other people on the forum, cause they are all dumb. Yeah right.

To be fair to the poster, Gabe has ruined PvP as the lead in more games than he has.  So it might not hurt to actually listen to your posters.

 

It is also a mistake to assume random forum poster = dumb.  This poster has probably logged more hours in SWTOR than 90% of the dev team.

  TwwIX

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/05
Posts: 213

4/18/12 8:21:23 PM#40
Originally posted by kb4blu

SWTOR is not a game for the Hardcore.  Its was made for casuals.

Get over it.

 

Actually, it's neither. It's a poorly balanced mess and BioWare has not f'ing clue who they should cater to.

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