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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Bioware just made the same ol' mistake.

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69 posts found
  TwwIX

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/05
Posts: 213

4/18/12 5:41:24 PM#21

They've completely ruined the leveling experience for me. Why flawed, i saw a lot of potential and had high hopes for this game during its many betas. For one, it was a fun and enjoyable experience and not a terrible credit sink it has become now. The cost for things like training, traveling, removing mods etc. needs to be either severly reduced or completely removed altogether. I am now forced to go farm mobs because i can't even afford to train my characters anymore just by questing alone. I'd be able to ignore that if the loot system wasn't complete and utter crap. The drop rate is just simply terrible. Especially for Elite and higher level mobs. The economy in general is poorly balanced and inflated as hell.

Sadly, BioWare's too arrogant to listen to any constructive criticism. Those year long closed beta tests they held are a perfect example of that. They seem to be under the impression that nerfing various aspects of the game and adding to the grind is going to improve this game's fun factor and longevity.  Guess what? It hasn't and it never will. Grouping is also a big pain in the ass while leveling. I don't even bother going to the Fleet for the Flashpoints anymore. It's futile unless you are a level 50. How the hell do you not implement a basic LFG tool when it was requested numerous times during your beta tests? The game, in general, lacks a lot of basic MMO features. They've completely neglected the early leveling and overall PvE experience in favor of catering to the PvP folk and farmers.

Then there's the whole population issue that they continue to ignore even though people have been requesting server merges or character transfers for months now because they are sick and tired of rerolling on more populated servers. People have quit the game just for this reason alone. It's just another fine example of how dismissive and arrogant BioWare is.

 

 

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2445

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/18/12 5:51:52 PM#22
Originally posted by Volarin

You totally missed the main point that SWTOR did not work - that is the same old mmo game reskinned for star wars. People are sick to death of playing the same game, call it wow, tor, aion, it is all the same.

No originality, qyest, level, shit point and click combat, no death penalty, pointless concequenceless gameplay.

Thank God for PlanetSide 2, Eve and the Indi developers that are trying to drag this tired genre out of the mindless grip of Wow and it myriad of reskinned clone. Go fetch x of y my ass!

Exactly, I know I was tired of  playing WoW years ago, and quit. I have been disappointed so many times over the years of the poorly done WoW clones that have came out. I loved WoW while I played it, but as mmo's get, it grew old and repetative. I'm looking for something completely different than the WoW clone. Hopefully, GW2 will be that, it seems a little bit like my favorite mmo of all time DAOC. We shall see.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  fundayz

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/14/10
Posts: 471

4/18/12 5:54:19 PM#23
Originally posted by DeaconX

But hey, what were they to do, change 90% of their design? :p

This. The game just was not well designed from the very beginning; changing the foundation of such a massive project even halfway through is night impossible.

  Sora2810

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 567

4/18/12 6:02:46 PM#24

 

If bioware wants to stay in the stone age and cling to retro-systems of chat-channel groups; so be it. If they wanted to improve their system, they could make a same-server queueing function which allows players to choose what FP's or Heroics they are interested in, a party leader can view all the available players LFG for that FP/HM, and send them invites. Players can leave their comments to describe their role since they feel 'community' blah. 

I play 'hardcore' MMO's. I even play some that are based on time. But waiting around for one reason is fun, waiting for a party is not. If we have to be immersed into our character, why not add a hunger/thirst system if we're going to count the waiting game /sarcasm. 

Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  Corehaven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 1574

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

4/18/12 6:05:23 PM#25
Originally posted by Merdur

It's people like this that make mmo's fail, you want everything to be 100% WoW, well WoW wasn't built in a day. It took WoW 5 years and TONs of bitching from the playerbase for them to do ANY of that. I remember in BC when you couldn't even put heroics. I remember in vanilla, BC, WOTLK, and cata when lower level dungeons were a thing of the past and NO ONE RAN THEM so finding a group was impossible. How do you suggest a game developer MAKES people play the lower level instances? If you wanna run them then find a guild a get some friends in there to burn your thru it otherwise GL finding one. Oh and the needing on loot in heroics thing isn't that big a deal, if you don't want it to happen then don't run with them.

 

No see thats the problem.  That was Bioware's huge mistake, but they arent the first developer to do it. 

 

You cant make a successful WoW clone, very much due to the reason you stated.  On one hand you have WoW which has the better part of a decade worth of polish, and then you have a game like Swtor. 

 

If I open up a burger joint in town, and Im competing with another very established burger joint while Im still trying to get my act together, its going to fail.   The other burger place already knows what they are doing.  Im still trying to figure it out and I cant afford too.  If my burgers arent better than theirs, and very noticeably so, Im dead in the water, and of course thats not going to happen.  Now if I had opened up the only pizza place in town on the other hand, Im in the money. 

 

Variety is the spice of life.  You have to be different, and you have to be good.  Then you'll be fine.  You can NOT make a WoW clone and have great success.  If you are lucky you will get by modestly, if not, you will fall right into the gutter.  Had Swtor been a breath of fresh air, and been different or even drastically so from WoW, they'd have had far greater success. 

 

When Bioware made some kind of comment regarding its too dangerous to deviate from WoW while they were developing Swtor, I knew right then and there it was going to suffer.  Thats the opposite of a good philosophy.  

 

On a side note I like console gaming as much as PC.  Almost every title I own is drastically different from one another.  Red Dead Redemption is nothing like Oblivion, and neither are anything like Batman Arkham City for example.  I buy games to get a variety of fun play experiences.  The problem with the mmorpg genre, is for the most part, they are failing to grasp the concept that the rest of the successful gaming industry fully understands. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19524

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/18/12 6:14:06 PM#26
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Merdur

It's people like this that make mmo's fail, you want everything to be 100% WoW, well WoW wasn't built in a day. It took WoW 5 years and TONs of bitching from the playerbase for them to do ANY of that. I remember in BC when you couldn't even put heroics. I remember in vanilla, BC, WOTLK, and cata when lower level dungeons were a thing of the past and NO ONE RAN THEM so finding a group was impossible. How do you suggest a game developer MAKES people play the lower level instances? If you wanna run them then find a guild a get some friends in there to burn your thru it otherwise GL finding one. Oh and the needing on loot in heroics thing isn't that big a deal, if you don't want it to happen then don't run with them.

Exactly.

I love the people that complain about the lack of group mechanics and yet don't join guilds. If you guys really care that much about grouping and being able to play with your "type" of player, why aren't you in a guild?

It's like people that complain about there being no open PVP. Head over to Tattoine right now and visit Outlaws Den. Before this Rakgoul thing very few people were using it. Now that there is an objective directing you there more players are going and having fun. The quesiton I have is, why do players need an objective or reward to participate in PVP? What happened to PVP just for fun? Long as I have a designated place that I know is a PVP area, I'm happy to pop in and mix it up with the other side.

I have never enjoyed PVP "for fun", in fact the only reason I will ever PVP is to fight for cause.

Be it defense of "my " territory, control of valuable resources, or to just power up my character, I only PVP if the rewards appeal to me. (and revenge is a cool motivator as well).  Better have some risk vs reward and punish people for dying rather than surviving.

As much as you don't understand me, I can't for the life of me understand your motivations in gaming, different strokes for different folks as they say.

As as for joining guilds, I joined one right away and I got to run like maybe one or two groups runs with them. Due to the level based story content, we were never in sync and rarely did we even match up for flashpoints or what not. 

Most of them rushed to 50 far faster than I could and other than listening to their raid encounters in Vent, I could not participate.

To really be successful, a game designed like SWTOR must have easy group finding tools based around Pugging and a DF is the perfect answer to the problem.

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Demmi77

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/08
Posts: 224

4/18/12 9:36:07 PM#27

here is a simple truth that people have to understand. I played the game to 50 and quit shortly after. Fanboys will argue but these are facts, facts which ruined the game for alot of people.

 

these are in no order of importance.

the space combat is a minigame, with zero depth. Some people don't mind, but a decent sized percentage of players were insulted by the space combat. Their argument "its star wars" , space combat is a big part of the star wars universe. In my personal opinion , space combat wasn't a make or break feature.

Most of you have played wow. You know how you roam around and there's boars, and random monsters. When you get to your quest there are the mobs you kill. Some of them have preset spawn points,. a few roamers. The mob layout does have some variety though. IT is a layout of  mobs, but alot of them have random spawn locations etc. Swtor, copies this layout but does it worse. Remember westfall, the gnoll camps. Every mob in every dungeon follows the exact same format throughout the game. Combat starts to lose it's luster at around lvl 30. You realize where you are going, there will be silver +2 normals, or 3 normals sometimes four. It never changes ever.

There is always an elite in a dungeon or some harder mob , in every dungeon, same layout, open world same layout.  this is what drives alot of players to get that "dead world" feel. There is not much interaction within the world. Everything feels so "still".

 

the world and community. The game is sharded, fact. The game cannot handle, populated areas i guess, i am not techically savvy to understand why this had to be. There is a very large lack of an open world. THe problem is the worlds are huge, this adds to the emptiness feeling. Big world , lack of people.

 

pvp. i played solely for pvp, i enjoyed it for a while. Problems, open world was in a terrible state. So bad they shut it down as a objective. There are a ton of issues with gear,  balance (1.2 did the exact opposite of what the community wanted). I do enjoy the combat but the amount of keybinds you need is horrendous. So the game has about 15 unique ablities that are used frequently on my marauder. With no macros, it becomes a chore. Even with everything bound i feel like im stretching one eye to look at my cooldowns. WIth no ui customization and macros it made competitive pvp a nightmare to even think of.

alot of my pvp feelings are personal, it is ultimately why i left the game.

 

the story is great, but that's all the game is to alot of people. You play the story and you are done. I know myself, my guild and a handful of friends, didn't want another wow. The game is an exact replica of the wow model. Get to 50, dailies, groups, raids,. tokens/raid gear. we, as gamers, have gone through this model for the past 10 years in mmos.

crafting, lack of sandbox, off - the - rails progression, etc.. are just a few of the reason that put alot of people off. Star wars fans want alot of depth, a social atmosphere, a world where they are free to build their own adventure. Star wars the old republic lacks all of this.

I am sure it will hold a niche crowd hoping for a better world in bioware's galaxy. I myself have been done, but i enjoy reading constructive thoughts on games, that i want to succeed.

 

i just wish sincerely they'd look at what people want in an mmo.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

4/18/12 9:48:54 PM#28
Originally posted by Merdur

It's people like this that make mmo's fail, you want everything to be 100% WoW, well WoW wasn't built in a day. It took WoW 5 years and TONs of bitching from the playerbase for them to do ANY of that. I remember in BC when you couldn't even put heroics. I remember in vanilla, BC, WOTLK, and cata when lower level dungeons were a thing of the past and NO ONE RAN THEM so finding a group was impossible. How do you suggest a game developer MAKES people play the lower level instances? If you wanna run them then find a guild a get some friends in there to burn your thru it otherwise GL finding one. Oh and the needing on loot in heroics thing isn't that big a deal, if you don't want it to happen then don't run with them.

Bioware said they wanted to make it like WoW.  Well guess what?  You try to compare yourself to WoW, people are going to expect WoW.

And again, enough with the tired line about how WoW was at launch.  This ain't launch.  And it isn't 2004 anymore.  You gotta take care of this stuff at launch, not 5 years down the line.  Simply put, the majority of MMO's will not see a stable population 5 years down the line.  At the rate they are going, that includes TOR, which will almost certainly be F2P within a year, and not one of the cash cow F2P ones.

  User Deleted
4/18/12 9:54:51 PM#29

Considering EA Bioware is the worst labeled company on the planet I wouldn't expect any less than lying, screw ups and false advertising from them. EA is such a terrible company that they out beat Bank of America as the worst company in the world by anonomous votes. SWTOR = single player RPG not an MMORPG. I beta tested as well, and everything bug or exploit I wrote up never got fixed. EA Bioware just needs to go bankrupt, they're incomptence is revolting.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

4/18/12 10:02:49 PM#30
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Kitane

Isn't it funny how guilds have gone from being a group of  friends playing a game together, to just tools that one is supposed to join so as to be assured of having a ready group at hand. In other words, just people to use.  No wonder most guilds these days quickly crumble under the wait of bickering and bad feelings.

Never mind that the "just get in a guild" solution simply doesn't work anyway. You need to join a massive guild, with players at all level ranges, and be extremely lucky to have enough people that are at your level range and play the same times you do. The "just join a guild" stupidity is just an easy pseudo solution thrown out there by people that either are in a long standing guild already, and so didn't face the issues most players faced, or people that simply don't have a clue, and like to repeat inane catch phrases they read somewhere else.

What a bunch of B.S. My guild has at most 30-40 people playing at one time. It is hardly "massive." Yet there is usually always someone there to help out with a quest or heroic(regardless of level) and there is regularly scheduled group activities every week for the operations. No one is feeling "used."

If someone is going to whine about developers not creating enough tools to help them group, then it's reasonable to ask why they aren't using the ones available. Why wouldn't someone who likes doing group related content join a guild? That's like someone  who wants to be an actor refusing to join the screen actors guild and then complaining about not getting any work in hollywood.

 

 

You missed his point.  Guilds are supposed to be more than just "Group b**hes."  They are supposed to be like-minded players set on certain goals, providing fellowship and working towards a common goal.

Some guilds are pvp-centric.  Others are eco centric (though not really in this game.)  Some are focused on nothing but uber raids.  Others are RP guilds.  And still others are just casual screw around guilds for leveling purposes like you describe.  With the exception of the RP guild, I've led or helped manage every type listed.  Right now in TOR there is lacking any real reason for a dedicated guild to form and stay together.  There isn't enough interdependency in econ.  There isn't any motivation for pvp outside of running the same tired BG's over and over again, and since the open world aspect is seriously lacking, there's few chances for genuine pvp rivalries to develop.

The endgame raids aren't compelling enough to keep people running them again and again, even on "hardmode" or "nightmare" (raid guilds were blowing through even nightmare content without any pause just a few weeks after launch.)  There really aren't any moments where you are in awe of the scriped pve or tactics involved.

There are no guild halls, as of yet no guild ships, no guild projects, etc.  So social/RP guilds don't feel a reason to join a guild.

Outside of finding someone to do groups, there really is a lacking purpose for guilds.  And most guilds that last beyond 2-3 months are more than just a glorified LFG tool.

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1763

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

4/18/12 10:08:58 PM#31
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Alders

I've said this before and i'll say it again:

The 4-man party size is stupid and contributed to most of the issues brought up here.  When you only have 2 dps per tank, you're going to have issues finding groups.

Sorry the problem is the Holy Trinity.

 

I have said it time and time again, SWTOR was a game begging to be made with the removal of the Holy Trinity in mind.

 

 

To late to fix that now, the only soution is to create a dungeon finder ASAP.

 

Oh i completely agree with you but it was never going to happen so i didn't bring it up.  Party size on the other hand should have been obvious to any dev that actually plays MMO's.  4 just doesn't work within the trinity system.

  Fennris

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/07
Posts: 273

4/18/12 10:14:51 PM#32

The only thing I'll give the OP is that there should be a cross-server lfg for flashpoints (and warones with brackets) like Wow has.  I know that BW wants to add versions of them but I think that they said they don't have the hardware for it yet. 

Making money isn't a problem.  And they have added numerous things to spend it on since release.

The auction house is not fancy but it is usable if that's your thing.  I don't see it as a core feature of the game and seriously doubt that most people do (but yes, some like playing auction house games).  Crafting is broken but is not a crisis; it's obviously not meant to be a core part of the game either, just a nice to have for those that want to do it.

 

  Drakxii

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 599

4/18/12 10:32:35 PM#33
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Merdur

It's people like this that make mmo's fail, you want everything to be 100% WoW, well WoW wasn't built in a day. It took WoW 5 years and TONs of bitching from the playerbase for them to do ANY of that. I remember in BC when you couldn't even put heroics. I remember in vanilla, BC, WOTLK, and cata when lower level dungeons were a thing of the past and NO ONE RAN THEM so finding a group was impossible. How do you suggest a game developer MAKES people play the lower level instances? If you wanna run them then find a guild a get some friends in there to burn your thru it otherwise GL finding one. Oh and the needing on loot in heroics thing isn't that big a deal, if you don't want it to happen then don't run with them.

Exactly.

I love the people that complain about the lack of group mechanics and yet don't join guilds. If you guys really care that much about grouping and being able to play with your "type" of player, why aren't you in a guild?

It's like people that complain about there being no open PVP. Head over to Tattoine right now and visit Outlaws Den. Before this Rakgoul thing very few people were using it. Now that there is an objective directing you there more players are going and having fun. The quesiton I have is, why do players need an objective or reward to participate in PVP? What happened to PVP just for fun? Long as I have a designated place that I know is a PVP area, I'm happy to pop in and mix it up with the other side.

Till after wow I never hear that you need to join a guild to find groups.   Picking up groups in EQ, SWG, and yes even WoW was easy.   You know why?   Because on like the morons on at SWTOR they put the level 10 group content in the same area as the level 10 solo content.  Did SWTOR do this?  Nope all the heroics are many zones away from the solo content because...?   Not mention that if you did want do the little heroic content that was in the correct zone you had to both find a group but get them in the same damned shard because being the same zone just wasn't enough. 

 

As for pvp.   What do you expect when you make a game about leading people down tunnels do you really expect people just do things for the heck of it?   Nope the people that are still going to play SWTOR are the ones that want to be lead by the hand, because swtor scared of the rest way before they were even allow to open pvp.

 

Also while I get that that not every MMO should be like WoW.  If you going to make your game so fing close to WoW like SWTOR did at the very least you take the good things about WoW as well as the boring static worlds and classes.  

 

(Also cross server LFG tools kill communities... not that SWTOR had one to began with it's solo stories and way out of the heroics.)

I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

4/18/12 10:34:38 PM#34
Originally posted by Drakxii

 

(Also cross server LFG tools kill communities... not that SWTOR had one to began with it's solo stories and way out of the heroics.)

Yeah.  They might kill them, but you really can't kill what is already dead.

  User Deleted
4/19/12 3:27:03 AM#35

PvP was "fixed"? When?

They are "fixing" PvE, without ANY consideration for PvP, and they actually reduced PvP to sideattraction for PvEers.

You got something wrong way around, sorry.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

4/19/12 8:01:20 AM#36

The arrogance of the developers is the #1 reason why 1.2 failed and why SWTOR is dying faster than any other MMO in history.

My server was ok before 1.2, after 1 week it is now totally dead.

  mbrodie

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 823

4/19/12 8:27:18 AM#37

the whole.. "look at WoW at launch" argument is kinda invalid, look at it like this, lets say another game came out back in 2004 and paved the way for MMO's today.. blizzard wouldnt say hey we're making an MMO copy that one.. they would do what they did with what was available back when they created WoW.. look at all the features of the current MMO's and create a game cetralized around compononents from each game... and i garauntee they would release with QOL features expected by todays standards

  User Deleted
4/19/12 8:36:40 AM#38
Originally posted by Greyhooff

The arrogance of the developers is the #1 reason why 1.2 failed and why SWTOR is dying faster than any other MMO in history.

My server was ok before 1.2, after 1 week it is now totally dead.

 

To me the sad thing is that during beta the actual employees I dealt with a few times... were great people (not arrogant/knew what they were doing).   There were three issues I reported where they emailed or messaged me to meet them in game to recreate the issue.

 

The arrogant and completely clueless about MMO people... are the ones "in charge" that you see posting.   Not all of them... but the people who should not be in charge are pretty obvious. 

 

Being the creative director of a single player game really has no relevance to being in charge of anything with an MMO.   In my opinion its pretty obvious why it has no relevance when you look at TOR.

 

I do honestly think that TOR is a great game if you look at it from a non MMO viewpoint or as a single player game with an online multi-player option.   If they had someone that really understood long term retention and the kinds of interactions an MMO needs... I think TOR would have been much better as an MMO.

 

this is of course all just my opinion...

 

*edit* to me it just kind of goes back to a story that was told once on a forum.   If the guy in charge asks you to put a toilet in the middle of the kitchen floor... that's what you do.   You know it really doesn't make sense but if you want to be employed that's what you do.

 

This is why the people in charge have to have MMO experience.   They are the ones directing everyone else and it doesn't matter how good your workers bees are.. when you have a moron in charge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Giddian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 431

4/19/12 8:38:12 AM#39

Do people have nothing beter to do than to post negative things about a game they clearly don't like?  Does it do anything?  I play the game because I enjoy it. and there will be those who don't.  So my suggestion to all those people who think their opinion is in the Majority, Make that perfect game yourself since you know so much more than the Devs. I would love to see what you come up with. Last I saw SWTOR had 1.7 M Subs. that's NOT a Fail. has the numbers gone DOwn? Yes, Are some servers baron? Yes. They will combine servers and all will be good. But it doesnt matter. Negative people will continue to complain to make themselves feel better.   Play a Game you Like and quit complaining about ones you don't. Do us ALL that favor

  Mechanism

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/21/09
Posts: 105

4/19/12 8:59:36 AM#40
I'd love for swtor to be a better game but how will my silence about its issues do any good?
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