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News & Features Discussion  » General: The Barrier Called 'Free'

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70 posts found
  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

4/18/12 2:49:20 PM#21

I don't understand the hate about games that either start as F2P or end up going that route.  Yes, I get that some F2P games are crap, but from what I understand, there are plenty of P2P games that are crap as well.  With F2P, when you find out it's crap, it doesn't hurt so bad.


 


I say, just take each game on its own merits.  If you feel it has a Pay2Win CS (whether P2P or F2P), then don't play.  If it's an F2P and you find it fun and even want to spend some cash in the CS then, have at it.


 


My personal opinion is that B2P is the best way to go - it's good for the devs and good for the players.  In most cases, you get a quality game that is fun to play and the devs make some money to pay for the costs of the game + develop a new one.  Just like console games, or most other PC based games.


 


2nd to that for me is the hybrid model like the one in LotRO.  There you have P2P and F2P players playing the same game and the F2P people, with some frugality can even get many of the "bonus" areas/quests without paying a dime.  And the P2P people get a bunch of perks.   Works for me.


 


One disclaimer:  I tend to be more PvE oriented so some things that seem to others as Pay2Win in a CS don't seem that way to me.  So, that could be a difference for some.  But, like I said, check out each game and judge it on its merits.  If it doesn't suit your needs in a game, move on to something that does.


You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1033

4/18/12 3:49:39 PM#22

Originally posted by Superman0X

For those of us that have been around long enough, this is nothing new. The best example of this is email. At one time, free email was percieved as lower quality. Now it is considered the standard. In 5 years the same thing will have happened for gaming.




 




 





 


I nerver get my e-mails to ask me to buy extra space or new fonts, or color for fonts, also he never blocked me to send a e-mail to someone because I didn't have the permition and have to buy it.


FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  BMoor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/05/10
Posts: 199

4/18/12 4:22:37 PM#23

Originally posted by alkarionlog




Originally posted by Superman0X




For those of us that have been around long enough, this is nothing new. The best example of this is email. At one time, free email was percieved as lower quality. Now it is considered the standard. In 5 years the same thing will have happened for gaming.








 








 











 




I nerver get my e-mails to ask me to buy extra space or new fonts, or color for fonts, also he never blocked me to send a e-mail to someone because I didn't have the permition and have to buy it.





 




But email systems like that exist.  For example:


Yahoo! Mail Plus - Gets you offline POP, 100 more filters, Live Customer Care (sounds familiar), Mail Forwarding, Disposable Addresses, and No graphical ads.


GMail - More space is the only thing that comes to mind at the moment.  Reminds me of buying inventory space.


Hotmail Plus - More space (sounds familiar), No account expiration, No graphical ads.


 


Of course, you could also stick to the email system that your subscription based ISP provides.


  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6667

4/18/12 4:30:40 PM#24

Nothing wrong with F2P games, but there are huge differences in this segment.  Many have little or no support mechanisms, those I tend to avoid.  It is nice to be able to try out a game without forking over a box price.  I have been burned by some games where I bought the box and found out I did not like the game.  Aion is a good example there.

As to Pay-to-Win, I only associate that feature with PVP, who cares if someone can do better PVE than you, hence there are a lot of F2P games out there that are not Pay-to-Win in my mind.

Personally I have found the games that offer a hybrid model, like Lotro or DDO to fit my playstyle far better than other things out there.

Some of the F2P like Perfect World and Runes of Magic were initially really fun, but once you got to the upper levels of those games it became almost mandatory to start spending in the cash shop.  Don't mind spending a little in the cash shop, but games like those mentioned above quickly get expensive.

  nuttob

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/11
Posts: 229

4/18/12 5:05:03 PM#25

I saw rant after rant that Aion is P2W.  If I look over what they have to offer, there is not a single P2W item there from what I can tell.  Can one of you ranters point out which actual items are P2W? 


  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

4/18/12 5:26:56 PM#26

Free to play is nice because it is easier to convince friends to play it with me.  Free to play can be dangerous though, I easily spent over a hundred on Atlantica Online in a few  months  (a great game though).   There are a lot of REALLY bad F2P games which is where the stigma comes from, generally Korean grinder clones.  


Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1925

May the game be ever in your favor.

4/18/12 5:29:59 PM#27

Originally posted by nuttob

I saw rant after rant that Aion is P2W.  If I look over what they have to offer, there is not a single P2W item there from what I can tell.  Can one of you ranters point out which actual items are P2W? 





 


None. People just enjoy ranting. Ignore them and they might go away (I doubt it but still).


Smile

  lifesbrink

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/09
Posts: 554

There are 2 kinds of people in the world: those who don't like dragons and those who enjoy living.

4/18/12 6:42:01 PM#28
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by mnemic666

I'm just so frustrated by people  who blindly hate on free to play/hybrid games and smuggly look down their noses at those freeloaders while they pay their glorious subscription. The subscription doesn't make the game any significantly better, it's the company that develops the game.

 

People don't blindly hate on P2W games.  You just choose to ignore the game mechanic modifications that players can purchase through the cash shop.  

P2W games by design are inferior to subscription based games.   All aspects are designed around the idea that they may be monetized in the future.   Developers are building their game so players can " Buy Fun ".

Hardly.  Most games out there that are free to play cost so little to play if you play it smart.  The nicest part is that you essentially do one-time purchases of content.  Pay to win...haha.  That is just ignorance to think, considering people that pay to get to max level quicker is hardly something that would be considered winning.

My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.

  Betaguy

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 2634

Some folks are like Slinkies, totally useless but great fun to watch when pushed down stairs

4/18/12 6:58:06 PM#29

Doesn't matter what you talk about, NOTHING is free without some kind of shameless plug or cash shop.... just saying.


  victorbjr

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/13/10
Posts: 162

4/18/12 7:46:21 PM#30
Hi folks.

Just checked comments now, so I apologize for the delay. Am currently visiting family in a different country, so I'm using a different connection and a netbook.

The picture with the ships is from a browser based MMO called Kultan, and may not be completely representative of the game, in my limited experience (My travel laptop is dreadfully slow and crashes when I try to run some games, such as Kultan. Not the game's fault, but the netbook's age showing).

Regarding the pay-to-win arguments mentioned here, I reference it when I talk about most games having some cash shop items that don't significantly impact and create a long-term advantage. While one with a lot of money could theoretically buy XP multipliers and strength buffs from start to finish, it's not exactly economically viable. As for games that tend to force players to buy items to get ahead at higher levels, I apologize for not bringing it up, as I personally am the type that chooses not to spend money and simply picks a different game when I get pushed to spend to alleviate grind... in other words, it didn't cross my mind.

Lastly, Sinjin is correct in saying that F2P games are not free if you consider plugs or cash shop mentions. You do, however, get to mitigate monetary usage depending on your how long and how often you play an individual MMO. :)

A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly. :)

Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 464

4/18/12 8:42:51 PM#31

We see free games made inconvenient by design to sell items that are "only for convenience".  Really I have yet to come across a free game that approaches the quality of subscription games.  I play LotRO and Conan on occasion but in both combat is clunky and travel is a pain in the arse.  If I am going to pick up a game and play for a bit, I don't want to spend 10 minutes just getting somewhere to do something.  And I think those 2 are in the upper eschelon of quality when it comes to free games.  While the price of a game may be free, my time is not.  That is why there is a barrier for me to try a new free game, I don't want to waste my time downloading and playing something only to find out the game actually doesn't get any better as you progress. There are more than enough new games that come out that are actually fun, and I don't mind paying for them.  


  dais

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/18/06
Posts: 92

4/18/12 8:53:17 PM#32

There are certain stigma's that have gotten associated with Free-To-Play games that I think need to be dismissed, but there are also a few other valid points that need to be brought up.

 

First, it is very possible to make a nice polished game and have it be F2P.  The reason people get turned off is unfortunately we have had a TON of just absolute garbage F2P games released that are ruining the name F2P.

 

Second, cash shops if done right are a great addition to some games, and provide that income for the developers to continue improving and supporting their games.  As long as the items don't provide in game advantages then it's a non-issue since it doesn't affect other players.

 

With those two out of the way though, I have to say that I strongly feel like the F2P model is destroying the online community.  If you spend money on the box and invest in 3, 6, 12 months, or even longer you are commiting yourself to a game, and also to your character and account.  Any game that has a trial 1-20 or F2P just read the general chat, it's ridiculous.  One of the posters in this thread even brought up what I mean.  If you are playing 9 F2P games at a time you aren't committed to any of them, what do you care if you are a ninja looter, or a royal ass to everyone?  Ruined your reputation?  No problem, just create another account, it's free.  Pretty sure you aren't going to continue playing the game?  Let everyone in general chat know how much their life sucks because they are playing that game.  What does it matter, you have 8 other games to fall back on.  Want to try botting or hacking but don't want to lose your account?  No problem, if you get banned you can just make another and it's free!  It's not like you invested 3 years into it and don't want to lose it.  You can say whatever you want and do whatever you want because there is zero comittment to that character or even game. 

 

It's already bad enough with B2P games, but to use the Penny Acade theory it takes the whole "Normal person + annonymity + audience = Total !@#$wad" to a whole new level.  F2P games have their own niche right now, and I like that, but it will be a sad, cold day when they replace B2P entirely.

  Cantorage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/10
Posts: 191

4/18/12 9:52:29 PM#33

Achievment level: Talk about Pay2win without mentioning Allods Online!


 


DING DING DING


 


*fireworks*


  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5763

4/18/12 10:25:53 PM#34

Good article Victor.  I can relate to a lot of what you wrote although my favorite games have been p2p subscription games.

It's interesting to see different things various games have to offer.  For example, when I played Wizard101 I thought it was really cool how dynamic grouping works for encounters.  Mostly I don't like how the game play can feel so centered around the cash shop.  Oddly enough games designed from the ground up with cash shops in mind often seem better than their Freemium conversion cousins.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Baowoulf

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/08
Posts: 18

4/18/12 10:46:57 PM#35

Ad-block/Anti-banner  no ads on Hotmail. Also the few times I had a question about my email service it was answered pretty quick even if it wasn't live(instantly answered I'm guessing you mean).


I've only played EQ, EVE Online, and WoW so i need and will try some F2P ones. But I am on the side that some F2P are just for making money a lot of the ones I've seen in the past advertised the parts you'd have to pay for just as much or more as the free side.


My view on this is kind of like my view on tipping. I don't believe in it. It's much easier I think to have a sub fee/include waiter's wage into meal than to have a F2P unless you're trying to make money as fast as possible. Most times it seems like the only people hurt are the consumer/customer and the game/waiter. And if people think the sub is too high they just stop paying.


 


But it's no surprise if you think about it. F2P is the normal step with more competition among good games and the lazy people thinking it's a market where they can make a quick buck with a bad game. Atm I think eventually P2P will make a comeback at least a small one with quality games. Then F2P will mostly be gone or be a sub market or be a combination with P2P.


  Konfess

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 734

4/18/12 11:01:32 PM#36

The hate for F2P come from players who want something for nothing.  They come to F2P expecting to play for 10 year or more and not spend a cent.  They are infuriated that those that do spend money get something that they do not, or is difficult for them to get.  They expect the devs not to be paid, and still support the game with fixes and content updates.  If the game must be paid for, it shall not affect them or their game play directly or indirectly.  They shall not compete against Pay Shop Items, Content shall not be limited by pay shop, nothing they want or can be used against them shall be Pay Shop.


I don’t mean to offend anyone, but by only tolerating Vanity Items to be sold, they are saying “Let those ---- & ---- pay for our hardcore PvP / PvE game play, we will not pay.”  By this I ONLY mean that opponents to F2P want some outside group that they don’t respect to pay for their game play.


Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  Baowoulf

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/08
Posts: 18

4/18/12 11:07:46 PM#37

That's a pretty reaching opinion if you're saying that being against F2P games selling items that make leveling faster or gear is the same as not thinking that the devs shouldn't be paid in anyway.


  Exarch1982

Novice Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 2

4/18/12 11:59:41 PM#38

To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.




Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.




My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it. 


  lifesbrink

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/09
Posts: 554

There are 2 kinds of people in the world: those who don't like dragons and those who enjoy living.

4/19/12 2:13:01 AM#39
Originally posted by Exarch1982

To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.

Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.

My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it. 

Odd, I don't get hit with that many ads.  Although I am a lifetime subscriber, so maybe that accounts for the difference.

My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.

  SpardaX

Novice Member

Joined: 12/30/05
Posts: 46

Once I did an amazing thing, that all the amazing things were amazed by the amazing thing i did!

4/19/12 2:32:59 AM#40

You Guys crying over F2P being bad is sickning, i will just give one example of one game that while not being mmorpg entirely for me has the best F2P system i know. League of Legends is free you just spend money if you want to buy or champions or skins and practically nothing more and its a very successfull game. of course there are some F2P who have ads, or piss you off constantly for you to spend money on their cash shop and of course there are some who actually have items who grant advantages that disrupt the fairness of the game, but like people you have bad people and good people, you have good food bad food, you have bad weather good weather and so on, just because you didnt like one F2P game doesnt mean the entire universe of F2P games are the same open you narrow minds a little.


 


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