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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Common Misconceptions on Raiding: Its not that I DON’T LIKE Raiding, I just CANT Raid..

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  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6122

 
OP  4/17/12 4:44:49 PM#1
 
There seem to be many misconceptions circulating around about how the MMO community perceives raiding. And I believe this is due to what people have been exposed to.
Not to single out the Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft community. But I will use them as an example of my point later on.
 
World of Warcraft is one of the most popular MMORPG with raiding, so it’s something most people can relate to when it comes to the topic of Raiding. MMO before WoW had more of a persistent theme to them, But WoW made it less stressful to player with use of Instances.
But not much changed from there. This lead to a few misconceptions on what Raiding Dungeons are, based on what past developers have designed them to be.
In Vanilla WoW:
Less than 2 % of players made it into Naxxramas.
In TBC WoW:
Less than 8% of players made it to Illidan and beyond.
 
Judging by these numbers, it would seem that most people DON’T LIKE RAIDING. I was one of those players that didn’t make it. But do I hate raiding? No. I just couldn’t do it, because it was way too hard which required much greater preparation that I just couldn’t dedicate my time to.
If I were to ask you “What is Raiding Dungeons?” what would most people say?
 
Looking at some of the replies from a few Guild Wars 2 discussions, it seem people would answer the above question with things like
*Hard difficulty PvE
*Something that is there only to hold Subs
*Gear Treadmill aka gear progression
*Show off ego aka elitist epeen
*Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons
*Major Wipe failures
*Tedious and boring
*WoW like- aka WoW cloning
 
But from the small list above, the only true meaning of raiding is “Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons”. The rest of those from the list above only come in how developers design the raid dungeon, which means the rest of it vary from person to person.
In the thread over on GW2 forum, this all was brought up on the subject of how Raid Dungeons doesn’t fit Anet’s design.
 
Again the list
1) Hard difficulty PvE
2) Something that is there only to hold Subs
3) Gear Treadmill aka gear progression
4) Show off ego aka elitist epeen
5) Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons
6) Major Wipe failures
7) Tedious and boring
8) WoW like- aka WoW cloning
But most of the arguments against raiding don’t make sense.
  1. Who says Raiding has to be harder than normal party dungeons? Just because its been that way in previous MMO, doesn’t mean that Raid Dungeon has to be the hardest form of PvE.
  2. This doesn’t make sense, because F2P games also have this. Subs have nothing to do with it.
  3. Gear progression seems to apply to everything. Not just Raid Dungeons. What makes Party dungeons different from this?
  4. This applies to anything now days. Not just raiding.
  5. This I agree on.
  6. Well doesn’t this apply to anything as well? Wipe in Party dungeons and PvP as well. Not just a Raiding kind of trend.
  7. Subjective, but also apply to everything. I find Party dungeons to be tedious and boring, compared to raiding.
  8. Not sure how Raiding can be linked to cloning WoW, when games older than WoW also had it… but I guess this is a modern day complaint about everything…
I personally don’t like Party dungeons in MMO. I like what Instances added to the experience in games. I especially like larger scale instances over the smaller scaled instances. In WoW I enjoyed AV 40 vs 40 more than WSG 10 vs 10 (?). This also applies to console gaming. I enjoy the 64 (32 vs 32) games more so than the 16 (8 vs 8) games.
I would like to see future MMO, move more away from tradional 5 man party dungeons, and into a new larger scale concept, for both the more hardcore MMO gamers as well as the not so hardcore MMO gamers. I enjoy raiding, but I havnt Raided since early WoTLK WoW (whatever year that was). Its not because I hated it, but more because I couldn’t raid without being in a Raiding guild, since they were more harder, people tend to like to play with people that they can coordinate with easier. Aka Guild members.
 
Also Endgame progression had many different types in modern themepark MMO.
*Raiding PvE Endgame
*Party Dungeon PvE Endgame
*Solo endgame
*PvP endgame
*Crafting endgame
 
Each of these has its own form of progression.  But the problem is that Raiding endgame is usually linked together with Party Dungeon progression. If I enjoy PvP, I can jump into the PvP and start Progressing. But if I enjoy Raiding, I can’t just jump into Raiding and start progressing without unlocking something from the Party Dungeons. Now if I hate Party dungeons, than that means no raiding for me, no matter how much I may like it. I recently came back to WoW after the SoR promotion, to try out the new LFR tool. But since I quit in early CATA, and only played PvP when I did play, I had no decent PvE party dungeon gear to queue into LFR tool. So I couldn’t even raid even with this tool in place, without going into Party dungeons first.
 
 
 
 

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1282

4/17/12 4:55:24 PM#2

I've raided three or four times in EverQuest II. The only thing I looted was an angry wife.

I enjoyed the raiding experience. However, stacking DKP in order to get a few pieces of gear is something I don't have time for. I have a family. Raiding takes hours. It's extremely rare that I have a few solid hours without interruption.

 

I'm not one of those guys who simply wants to earn the best loot through some bs instanced pvp process or solo quest. However, I do think they need to design a way so that weekend raiders can get a little something.

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

4/17/12 5:18:59 PM#3

Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.

 

8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life.  Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.

 

On topic, I don't know if I'm fully sold on raids being their own line of progression separate from 5 mans.  I like how the 5 mans have become a bit more involved, and now properly show players glimpses of what they can expect in a raid.  They serve their purpose as being a gateway to raiding, giving the gear and skill necessary to hit current content without being too bad.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19251

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/17/12 7:28:59 PM#4
Originally posted by Khaeros

Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.

 8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life.  Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.

 On topic, I don't know if I'm fully sold on raids being their own line of progression separate from 5 mans.  I like how the 5 mans have become a bit more involved, and now properly show players glimpses of what they can expect in a raid.  They serve their purpose as being a gateway to raiding, giving the gear and skill necessary to hit current content without being too bad.

I almost never game more than 3 hours, especially during most raiding guilds prime time, so yes, it is an imposition on available free time.

I used to raid regularly in vanilla WOW until I dropped off one afternoon at my desk from chronic fatigue.  (we raided 4-5 nights a week, up to 6 hrs a night, back when people did 'real' raiding)

And who can forget boss camping in L1 for 8-12 hrs at a shot.  No more of that for me.

Like the OP (btw, I see you got them to undelete your account, welcome back) said, it isn't that I don't like raiding, (or large scale fleet OPs in EVE, I just can't do the prep work necessary and participate.  

My problem, not the fault of raiding itself.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Cathleen81

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/12
Posts: 12

4/17/12 7:50:26 PM#5

I couldn’t raid without being in a Raiding guild, since they were more harder, people tend to like to play with people that they can coordinate with easier. Aka Guild members.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13585

4/17/12 9:28:54 PM#6
Originally posted by Khaeros

Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.

 

8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life.  Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.

It's not the total amount of time.  It's what that time has to be.

Right now I'm playing Uncharted Waters Online.  If something comes up and I need to get off, then about 95% of the time, I can be safely offline in under 30 seconds without losing progress or messing anyone else up.  Most of the rest of the time, the analogous time figure is a minute or two.  The analogous figure for a typical raiding experience would likely be best measured in hours, not seconds.

It's very, very important to me that a game should schedule itself around when it's convenient for me to play, and not the other way around.  It's also very important that I not be required to spend large blocks of time, but can play half an hour here and an hour there.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

4/17/12 9:30:48 PM#7
I raid but i dont like it as much as regular dungeons in wow and swtor. But if raiding is like fiesta onlines king quest where its easy to access and the easy access meant that even at level 10 people knew wtf to do in a raid then i am all for it.

Everyone talks about how hard raids are. The hard part about it is that people dont ge to play it much and they dont know wtf to do. If there were raids from level 5-max level that are easy to access, people would do those and most people will be able to pug them just because theyre used to it and its easy to access.

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  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/17/12 11:54:37 PM#8

I agree with the OP. Very often I thought I wanted to see a few raids, just to see the instance and experience it. But it takes so much preparation. Often high end hear grinded, then a very active, organized guild, and many other things. I most games I just wasn't able to enter raids or proceed very far.

I always felt raids cater a very, very tiny minority only, and are generally in their effect overrated.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/18/12 2:31:56 AM#9

These topics only show you how the mmos have changed, how our expectations have changed and how the devs approach to them has changed.

Back in the day, things like raiding, boss camping, castle sieges WERE THERE for the people who play 6+ hors a day, for the rest of the players, there was a whole world left with complex dungeons, questing, crafting, grind :) , commerce, heck, if you remember, older games featured something like tier gear as quest rewards, targeted specifically at players which are able to complete or participate in the raid maybe once or twice, but have the time to obtain the mats and quest items.

Nowadays the "whole world thing" is tuned down in favor of the raiding (the "whole world" people are unhappy), raiding is being simplified (the 6+ hours people are unhappy) and players are more or less being told "YOU CAN BE THE #1 RAIDER, IT IS YOUR RIGHT!", as a result most of the playerbase behaves like American Idol contestants, travelling from tier to tier like those people from town to town, casting to casting, performing their crappy number again and again in hopes that one of the judges has become insane and they get picked for the main competition this time.

Flame on!

:)

 

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2884

4/18/12 2:40:30 AM#10

I agree with Banaghran. Raiding is now meant for everybody. From my personal perspective, I love it because I can't play for long hours. Anything that takes more than 2 hours is a no no for me. Maybe if it's something which is super fun I can stay a bit late and play for 3-4 but that would be a one off thing. 

Raiding just takes too long. Also you have the preparation before the raiding - reading strategies, mats etc.

And yes the people that are complaining are the ones who can spend 5-6+ hours raiding.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

4/18/12 3:09:22 AM#11
Originally posted by MMOExposed
 
 
Again the list
1) Hard difficulty PvE
2) Something that is there only to hold Subs
3) Gear Treadmill aka gear progression
4) Show off ego aka elitist epeen
5) Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons
6) Major Wipe failures
7) Tedious and boring
8) WoW like- aka WoW cloning
But most of the arguments against raiding don’t make sense.
  1. Who says Raiding has to be harder than normal party dungeons? Just because its been that way in previous MMO, doesn’t mean that Raid Dungeon has to be the hardest form of PvE.
  2. This doesn’t make sense, because F2P games also have this. Subs have nothing to do with it.
  3. Gear progression seems to apply to everything. Not just Raid Dungeons. What makes Party dungeons different from this?
  4. This applies to anything now days. Not just raiding.
  5. This I agree on.
  6. Well doesn’t this apply to anything as well? Wipe in Party dungeons and PvP as well. Not just a Raiding kind of trend.
  7. Subjective, but also apply to everything. I find Party dungeons to be tedious and boring, compared to raiding.
  8. Not sure how Raiding can be linked to cloning WoW, when games older than WoW also had it… but I guess this is a modern day complaint about everything…
 

Can't really agree with most of your points

1. No one says raids have to be harder than dungeons, but it wouldn't make sense for raids to be easier when they give access to the best gear. So if they are made easier than the loot should be reflected as such

2. Archaic definition. F2P are relative new so a new definition hasn't really set in. A better way would be: Something to keep people playing. This will result in players spending more money on the game, either through a sub or a cash shop.

3. It's not different, but due to the time needed it's a much larger treadmill. So the issue is also much larger.

4. Raiders still behave elistist more than anyone else apart from top tier PvPers perhaps. So still applies

5. Of course that isn't really disputable.

6. Raid wipes affect a much larger group of people and can bring down morale much more so than dungeon groups. 

7. Everything gets boring and tedious after a while, but due to the large treadmill they will become quite boring and tedious long before you are done. Especially if new people keep needing to learn the fight and slowing down the fights. 

8. It is irrelevant if any games had raids before WoW. WoW made the mmo genre popular thus it is related too a lot more than others.

  User Deleted
4/18/12 3:36:29 AM#12

 



Originally posted by Banaghran
These topics only show you how the mmos have changed, how our expectations have changed and how the devs approach to them has changed.
Back in the day, things like raiding, boss camping, castle sieges WERE THERE for the people who play 6+ hors a day, for the rest of the players, there was a whole world left with complex dungeons, questing, crafting, grind :) , commerce, heck, if you remember, older games featured something like tier gear as quest rewards, targeted specifically at players which are able to complete or participate in the raid maybe once or twice, but have the time to obtain the mats and quest items.
Nowadays the "whole world thing" is tuned down in favor of the raiding (the "whole world" people are unhappy), raiding is being simplified (the 6+ hours people are unhappy) and players are more or less being told "YOU CAN BE THE #1 RAIDER, IT IS YOUR RIGHT!", as a result most of the playerbase behaves like American Idol contestants, travelling from tier to tier like those people from town to town, casting to casting, performing their crappy number again and again in hopes that one of the judges has become insane and they get picked for the main competition this time.
Flame on!
:)
 

 

Couldn't agree more. However i think this change is not a conscious decision. It just happened.
Got perverted and twisted along the way.

Most people do not remember the old ways (days) and fewer are those who even experienced it. So if a game trying to get a hold on the mainstream market they need to have this kind of "Raiding" today. Just look how many are unwilling to let got of DPS & Threat meters no matter how the actual new mmo they play might not warrant any by combat / encounter / class design.


A friend of mine just switched last year from an old open world game to a newish "Themepark".
While he "Raided" in his old game he could log on and off almost anytime, groups being so huge and composed of multiple people it didn't matter when one or two left, no one had to stop till replacement came in. And everyone had little progress in the open world dungeon gathering their armor parts for crafting. (or fulldrop by chance).

Now in his new game he can't seem to progress at all. Because he barely get's over 1 hour of continued gameplay without 20 minute breaks in between (kids) despite being there for "3 hours" total that day.

And let's be honest, who would want to go into an instance or WoW / Swotr / Rift / Lotro raid with people who suddently need to get off the pc for 10 minutes?

 

 

 

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

4/18/12 3:41:16 AM#13
Originally posted by Banaghran

These topics only show you how the mmos have changed, how our expectations have changed and how the devs approach to them has changed.

Back in the day, things like raiding, boss camping, castle sieges WERE THERE for the people who play 6+ hors a day, for the rest of the players, there was a whole world left with complex dungeons, questing, crafting, grind :) , commerce, heck, if you remember, older games featured something like tier gear as quest rewards, targeted specifically at players which are able to complete or participate in the raid maybe once or twice, but have the time to obtain the mats and quest items.

Nowadays the "whole world thing" is tuned down in favor of the raiding (the "whole world" people are unhappy), raiding is being simplified (the 6+ hours people are unhappy) and players are more or less being told "YOU CAN BE THE #1 RAIDER, IT IS YOUR RIGHT!", as a result most of the playerbase behaves like American Idol contestants, travelling from tier to tier like those people from town to town, casting to casting, performing their crappy number again and again in hopes that one of the judges has become insane and they get picked for the main competition this time.

Flame on!

:)

 


I agree. And I think its sad. Only raids are difficult and the rest of the game( specially if its open and outdoor) is easy enough for a monkey to play. Actually even raids are that easy now. And you need to play hardmode if you want difficulty and challenge.

I think its because the company and developers are greedy/lazy. They dont want to spend money on exclusive content for anyone. This means there is no diversity and also that there is no way to be different or feel special. Other than getting the best gear from hm-raids.

In a good game you would always need to be part of a small minority if you wanted to do something difficult and be special, IMO. And raiding should only be one of several alternatives. But that would mean they had to create a lot of exclusive content that only a minority will see or be able to do. It could be raids but more importantly other things depending on crafting, exploring and adventures of all sorts.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3348

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

4/18/12 3:58:31 AM#14


Originally posted by Banaghran
These topics only show you how the mmos have changed, how our expectations have changed and how the devs approach to them has changed.
Back in the day, things like raiding, boss camping, castle sieges WERE THERE for the people who play 6+ hors a day, for the rest of the players, there was a whole world left with complex dungeons, questing, crafting, grind :) , commerce, heck, if you remember, older games featured something like tier gear as quest rewards, targeted specifically at players which are able to complete or participate in the raid maybe once or twice, but have the time to obtain the mats and quest items.
Nowadays the "whole world thing" is tuned down in favor of the raiding (the "whole world" people are unhappy), raiding is being simplified (the 6+ hours people are unhappy) and players are more or less being told "YOU CAN BE THE #1 RAIDER, IT IS YOUR RIGHT!", as a result most of the playerbase behaves like American Idol contestants, travelling from tier to tier like those people from town to town, casting to casting, performing their crappy number again and again in hopes that one of the judges has become insane and they get picked for the main competition this time.
Flame on!
:)
 

I really miss raiding for fun. It's just a shiny grind now :(

When i was testing the raid finder system in wow beta mode, I must of went through 200 people trying to do a raid. After every wipe 60% of the people would leave only to be replaced by people that would do the same thing. All in the name of "quick shinies".
There's just no player respect, organization and determination now.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1282

4/18/12 7:13:09 AM#15
Originally posted by Khaeros

Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.

 

8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life.  Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.

 

On topic, I don't know if I'm fully sold on raids being their own line of progression separate from 5 mans.  I like how the 5 mans have become a bit more involved, and now properly show players glimpses of what they can expect in a raid.  They serve their purpose as being a gateway to raiding, giving the gear and skill necessary to hit current content without being too bad.

There is a huge difference when it comes to time spent questing Vs. raiding. When I quest, the time is on/off. I finish a quest, take a break, do another quest, do some yard work, do another quest, eat with the fam, etc. I can't do that when I raid. It's difficult for most players to get a STEADY 4 hours.

  User Deleted
4/18/12 8:00:33 AM#16

I find the amount of time invested in raiding isn't worth what little content and/or rewards you get from it.

I think a lot of players could make more time for it if they really wanted to, but the simple fact is it just isn't worth it, or they find raids to be exceedingly boring.

  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1842

4/18/12 8:07:20 AM#17

Raiding has become about getting as many saps together to gear out the few.

I could accept raids if everybody was equally rewarded for the effort but that's never the case. Even with dkp systems meant to cover up a flawed loot system in the first place.

  Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 463

4/18/12 8:15:49 AM#18

Non-current content is simplified because they want more people to get through it.  Exposed's stats aren't too far off - very few people actually reach the end of (non-raid finder) Dragon Soul out of the entire WoW population (though Spine is, IMO, harder than Madness), much less the hard modes.

 

Current content gets nerfed when Blizz overtunes the raid on release, and as they prepare to release new content - or, in this case, an expansion.  Might as well get as much people through the content before it becomes obsolete, right?

 

So there's Raid Finder, to allow players who aren't in a dedicated raiding guild a chance to gear up further and see content that they otherwise would skip over when MoP hits.  It's designed just for people like mmodad here - who can't schedule a full block of time (most raidfinder runs take under two hours - and the Dragon Soul raid is split up in two chunks!) or who are simply burnt out of scheduled raiding.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/18/12 10:03:26 AM#19
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Khaeros

Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.

 

8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life.  Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.

It's not the total amount of time.  It's what that time has to be.

Right now I'm playing Uncharted Waters Online.  If something comes up and I need to get off, then about 95% of the time, I can be safely offline in under 30 seconds without losing progress or messing anyone else up.  Most of the rest of the time, the analogous time figure is a minute or two.  The analogous figure for a typical raiding experience would likely be best measured in hours, not seconds.

It's very, very important to me that a game should schedule itself around when it's convenient for me to play, and not the other way around.  It's also very important that I not be required to spend large blocks of time, but can play half an hour here and an hour there.

I hear that.  Even though some nights I do have the time to commit, I usually have interruptions.  I'd rather not be a nuisance to a group going AFK every half hour.  Eve Online worked great for my situation.  I could quickly dock up if something came up.

The major difference between myself and others though is I accept my limitations.  I do not expect to be rewarded the same as those who can and do commit the time necessary to achieve those goals.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  User Deleted
4/18/12 10:05:52 AM#20

The problem with raiding is that companies liek Blizzard make it the only option ot obtain the best gear in the game. There needs to be more ways other than raiding to get the best gear. I like raids, they are fine but they aren't for everyone.

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