To all the people saying SWTOR is what's wrong with the MMO genre, let me let you in on a little secret....

The worst thing that has ever happened to the MMO genre is...

WORLD OF WARCRAFT

Now every MMO that comes out is compared to WoW. If it doesn't have 10 million subscribers on Day 1, it's a failure. If it has bugs, it's fail because WoW is basically bug free (nevermind WoW has had 8 years to fix them!).

For this reason, game companies will do drastic and game breaking changes to their game ($OE SWG NGE fiasco) or just outright shut down a game just because it isn't the next WoW size game.

WoW is (or was....if you don't play anymore) an amazing and fun game.  It just set the bar too high for the genre as a whole.

This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

Originally posted by dubyahite

This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

 

It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

 

You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

 

 

Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

You just agreed with me without even realizing it. 

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by Zylaxx

No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

You just agreed with me without even realizing it. 

Not really.  Blizzard isnt the problem, companies like Bioware are the problem.

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by dubyahite

This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

 

It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

 

You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

 

 

Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

well wont they have to work for it and not shamelessly copy other's hardwork.....

Oh please. Blame it on WoW because some games try to copy it for succes.

Even though WoW wasn't my 1st MMO, it was probably the most fun mmorpg I have ever played. Maybe because I had a great guild and a lot of friends. Still, MMO's fail because they are either released unfinished or they try to copy a lot of WoWs features. I am not talking about grindfest games, those fail in the west mostly because people don't like grinding. And tMMOs don't really fail, they just don't live up to peoples expectations.

Originally posted by Elminzter

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by dubyahite

This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

 

It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

 

You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

 

 

Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

well wont they have to work for it and not shamelessly copy other's hardwork.....

I don't think it's as simple as that.  If you're aiming for that large of a mass market appeal, you almost have to consider WoW players.  I don't think it's a matter of shameless copying. WoW players are very very very picky about the features in an MMO they might try out.  They frequently get upset if the game doesn't have specific features from WoW that they love. They often go back to wow when that game doesn't provide them the "WoW experience."

It's a tough line to walk. I think the problem is that companies see WoW players as a "potential market" that they can tap into. If you attempt to tap into that market then there are many things that the consumer expects to be present in the game or they will quickly quit. 

The problem with this is that I don't think WoW players are really a "potential market."  They are deeply embedded in the wow ecosystem and it is tough to pull them away and even tougher to keep them.  On the other hand there are many things that Blizzard does on a regular basis that pull them back into WoW. 

The other option for a company seeking that wow level of success to try to do is attempt to pull new players into the genre. Get the casual players, or provide something that would attract them.

We can argue all day about if Bioware was successful at this or not, but I think it's clear that they attempted to appeal to both of these markets. The SW ip alone can be used to pull in new players, while the gameplay is meant to provide an environment that any of the 10 million WoW players can feel comfortable within.  

Originally posted by RefMinor
Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

Originally posted by Zylaxx

No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like EA sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like EA have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

/fixed

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by RefMinor
Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

 

What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

 

The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

 

These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

 

There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

 

I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by RefMinor
Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

 

What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

 

The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

 

These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

 

There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

 

I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

You two hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I was getting at.  The rest of you ....not so much.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by RefMinor
Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

 

What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

 

The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

 

These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

 

There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

 

I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

 

It's the bit just after the red I think is the most important, Developers need to believe in their product. It is clear that Bioware believed in the VO and cutscenes of SWTOR and tried to copy/paste the bits of WoW they thought were needed for the rest. They did not believe in the MMO part of the game they created, which is where they came unstuck. I agree with you about Trion, whilst they have copied WoW to an extent you can see they believe in their product and seem to get what needs to be improved by all accounts (I am a sandbox player mainly so Rift would not be for me.) I think they have a chance to slowly grow their product again upto EvE like figures which will provide both profit and an income stream to start new developments.

I think every MMO post-WoW is going to make many things similar to WoW, but I disagree that it is just stealing or malicious.  I think it's to make the transition from WoW to the new game an easy one.  If it's totally foreign, many players will get frustrated and quit.  And a large majority of MMO fans play/played WoW for years.

Blaming WoW and saying it set the genre on a straight path is so ignorant it hurts.

It's like saying "God of War had such wide appeal that it's prevented any action game from advancing from it's formula!"

"Call of Duty ruined FPS because everyone wants to be exactly like them now!"

"Final Fantasy is the bane of all RPG because every RPG that comes out now is a turn based fighter and no one wants to change that!"

If your logic cannot apply to other occurances which are the same, then your logic fails. SWTOR failed because it uses an aged alpha of an engine that prevents them from doing many things, it failed because bioware believed a story could carry bad PvE and PvP. It failed because it allowed players to hit the cap way to fast preventing them from steadily fixing bugs as they came up. 

I mean, yes, WoW had a rought start. But, it's PvE was in place, it's PvP was fun without being completly broken, and the bulk of the players took so much time to get to the cap that blizz was able ot steadily work things out. All the while they weren't giving out mass bans for simply playing the game (can't farm, can't play the auction, can't be in certain zones unless you're high enough etc...) and generally acting like they were the god of MMO and belittling their fans. 

SWTOR was a failure based on their own actions, not blizzards.

I liked WoW. I won't bash it. It wasn't a bad game. Not even a bad one to copy. But WoW was done. It's been played. Everyone's tired of it.

Compare Rift to SWTOR. Both clones, both are slammed for non originality but one is recognized for a quality product in spite of that and the other is recognized as a POS cash grab. (public perception, not mine. I never played SWTOR)

BTW, I play Rift and I don't think its an example of what's wrong. I think it's an example of what's right. The fact that we need a new style of MMO has nothing to do with being a quality product.

Originally posted by Dark_Skurai

Blaming WoW and saying it set the genre on a straight path is so ignorant it hurts.

It's like saying "God of War had such wide appeal that it's prevented any action game from advancing from it's formula!"

"Call of Duty ruined FPS because everyone wants to be exactly like them now!"

"Final Fantasy is the bane of all RPG because every RPG that comes out now is a turn based fighter and no one wants to change that!"

 

If your logic cannot apply to other occurances which are the same, then your logic fails. SWTOR failed because it uses an aged alpha of an engine that prevents them from doing many things, it failed because bioware believed a story could carry bad PvE and PvP. It failed because it allowed players to hit the cap way to fast preventing them from steadily fixing bugs as they came up. 

I mean, yes, WoW had a rought start. But, it's PvE was in place, it's PvP was fun without being completly broken, and the bulk of the players took so much time to get to the cap that blizz was able ot steadily work things out. All the while they weren't giving out mass bans for simply playing the game (can't farm, can't play the auction, can't be in certain zones unless you're high enough etc...) and generally acting like they were the god of MMO and belittling their fans. 

SWTOR was a failure based on their own actions, not blizzards.

Comparing a MMO to a single player game is where you went wrong.  A MMO is judged on subscribers.  A single player game is judged on box sales.  They are not the same thing. 

So it was blizzard's fault that SWTOR was linear, rushed, andlacking features?

So it was blizzard's fault that WAR past Tier 1 was empyty, hammerer got removed and pbp was blah?

So it was blizzard's fault that AOC was rushed to shipping and lack hugh amounts of content?

So it was blizzard's fault that Rift was linear and had boring pvp?

etc..

Yeah....

Also your arguement is flawed as no one calls EvE a failure even though it only has a few 100,000s.