Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

If anything is going to hurt the indie MMO developers, it's the string of crappy games they have released over and over with a few exceptions.

They are frequently extremely buggy and often very poorly supported by the developers. Don't get me wrong, I love indie games, but in the MMO world they very rarely are able to release a complete product that doesn't completely fall apart. 

Saying that TOR's failure or success would be good for the industry or bad for the industry is a very simplistic view of the subject. People aren't going to stop investing in indie games because TOR is a failure or success. Indie developers in the MMO genre are their own worst enemy more often than not. 

Originally posted by hh33

Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

I doubt this since the same things happened when WoW released.  Many bugs, server crashes, failed patches.  Every new MMO is a massive new set of code.  Adding stuff to it always has the chance of problems, and that goes for any game/MMO, not just SWTOR. 

Give them time to "learn the ropes".  If a year or two down the road Bioware is still having issues, then yeah I will join you in being annoyed.  But it's been less than 6 months since the game released. 

And please explain since the "hubris & arrogance" comment since you glanced right over it.

Originally posted by hh33

Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

But other fail games like AoC and WAR didnt make the market any better. They continue to try to make the same type of games and hope the next one will be a success.

I guess some indie developers are trying. But they often fail because players want AAA-polish and AAA-quality. And without that they complain and leave. Or never even try the games because they dont think a lower budget game can be good.

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by hh33

Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

I doubt this since the same things happened when WoW released.  Many bugs, server crashes, failed patches.  Every new MMO is a massive new set of code.  Adding stuff to it always has the chance of problems, and that goes for any game/MMO, not just SWTOR. 

Give them time to "learn the ropes".  If a year or two down the road Bioware is still having issues, then yeah I will join you in being annoyed.  But it's been less than 6 months since the game released. 

And please explain since the "hubris & arrogance" comment since you glanced right over it.

I think we'll be up for a long wait to see EA turn to innovation and risk taking. I'm not sure TOR's failure would really be such a great thing. If new concepts in gaming become successful, like GW2 and maybe even TSW and TERA, then the market can start hoping again. Nothing like the sweet smell of success...

SWTOR is to the MMO community as John Madden has been to sports games for over a decade.  People already knew going into the game is was another iteration of the same thing they having been playing for years nevertheless it was an guaranteed success.  And THAT is why EA backed it.

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by hh33

Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

I doubt this since the same things happened when WoW released.  Many bugs, server crashes, failed patches.  Every new MMO is a massive new set of code.  Adding stuff to it always has the chance of problems, and that goes for any game/MMO, not just SWTOR. 

Give them time to "learn the ropes".  If a year or two down the road Bioware is still having issues, then yeah I will join you in being annoyed.  But it's been less than 6 months since the game released. 

And please explain since the "hubris & arrogance" comment since you glanced right over it.

There's a huge difference between WoW and SWTOR. Yes, WoW did have many bugs, server crashes but WoW was still the most polished MMO at that time which SWTOR clearly is not. WoW had a lot of server crashes because the servers couldn't handle the bandwidth. WOW steadily grew and the servers crashed all the time because of hte number of players in one place (city raids!!). WoW's sub number never went down, they always went up until they started hitting some crazy milestones. Look at SWTOR. They are offering so much free time nowadays. This never happened to WoW in the early years! Hell, it took 1-2 years for a trial to come out. 

WoW also did a lot of things much better compareed to other MMOs in the market at the time. I seriously doubt SWTOR will be a success story like WoW.

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

I didn't like it as a MMO, but I am mixed on it, I think the VO for every quest was way too much, and the mmo/single player story stuff didn't mix right...Atleast it may get people to only VO a story aspect or something, and stay away from trying to voice everything over...I just don't think you can mix personal story and a mmo the way they did, maybe someone will do it right, but I prefer mmos, and I want depth, not a half way mmo...

I will not say I wish it to close down, as some seem to really like it, but I do not want it to be a big success either, because I don't want to see clones of it popping up, which it appears we are safe from, for now...So 300- 500k paying subs, they will eventually make their money back, and it will stay open, just will not be what they were wanting, and maybe it would keep Lucas from making them do something crazy that would just destroy it further.

I wouldn't feel bad for EA/BW if it did fail, but as a gamer, I know what it is like to like something and for it to get abandoned and left to rot basically (Vanguard).  So I won't wish that on those that do like it.

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

 

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

Oh?

Let me check the news on a certain company called Apple.

Iphones

The success of the Iphone (remember the original Iphone?) led to huge innovation in the mobile market.

Yeah, remember those phones that were before the original Iphone back in 2007? Yeah.. LOL

And that's one tech area that happened in the last 5 years.

I am sorry but the 'real world' doesn't abide by how you think it should. :)

You are more than welcomed to deny facts but don't be surprized if people call you out on it.

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

 

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

It will eventually lead to change. But not always innovation in that case. The worst that could happen is that the whole genre would die. If no one is prepared to invest any money anymore it could be a huge problem for all MMO-fans.

Procucts dis appear because no one is interested anymore. Trends and peoples taste changes. Investors and companies figure out new and better ways to make money. New products become popular and people forget the old ones.

Originally posted by Darklighter1

Originally posted by hh33

Hubris & arrogance defined.....

Despite the fact that SWTOR's inevitable failure is going to hurt indie developers seeking investment capital, it will end up becoming a positive in the long run.

It may take a few years, but we may actually get to see developers start taking risks and see some innovation in this genre. I realize that I said earlier that I did not want to see SWTOR fail, I've changed my mind.

The MMO market needs a catastrophic wipeout like SWTOR in order to move forward to the next level. I'm willing to bet that the top dogs at Blizzard are laughing their collective asses off right now at EA/Bioware.

PS- I never played WoW if you think I am some fanboi.

I doubt this since the same things happened when WoW released.  Many bugs, server crashes, failed patches.  Every new MMO is a massive new set of code.  Adding stuff to it always has the chance of problems, and that goes for any game/MMO, not just SWTOR. 

Give them time to "learn the ropes".  If a year or two down the road Bioware is still having issues, then yeah I will join you in being annoyed.  But it's been less than 6 months since the game released. 

And please explain since the "hubris & arrogance" comment since you glanced right over it.

"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb."

- Greg Zeschuk

Incidentally, it was this quote right here that broke me of the respect and confidence I had in this company, dating all the way back to Baldur's Gate 1. 

SWTOR's downfall will do nothing but benefit the MMORPG community.

There was a thread on here awhile back that equated the (at that time: prelaunch) downfall of SWTOR with the overall health of MMORPGs. There were champions of both side of the argument. Once SWTOR released and the playerbase experienced how EA took a no-frills approach to the entire project (I fault Bioware much less for this, even though I lump them in when I'm on one of my daily rants) and . . . it shows.

If  a major development company takes over a project, cobbles it together haphazardly and then tosses it to general consumers with an air of indifference, when those general consumers see how horrid the whole experience is, then they're going to presume that all MMORPGs are shoddy.  Then they'll be less inclined to want to try a new MMORPG.

So this is why I hope EA takes a major clip to the balls for the steaming pile of crap they've just released. The players deserved much better considering how dedicated they were, and game players in general deserve better treatment.

The message that needs to be sent is: "We pay your fucking bills. And we don't have to."

So, the moral of the story is: "Kids, when you know a game is shitty - don't buy it just because you can."

Because you're also a large part of the problem.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

 

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

Oh?

Let me check the news on a certain company called Apple.

Iphones

The success of the Iphone (remember the original Iphone?) led to huge innovation in the mobile market.

Yeah, remember those phones that were before the original Iphone back in 2007? Yeah.. LOL

And that's one tech area that happened in the last 5 years.

I am sorry but the 'real world' doesn't abide by how you think it should. :)

 

You are more than welcomed to deny facts but don't be surprized if people call you out on it.

 

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

 

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

Oh?

Let me check the news on a certain company called Apple.

Iphones

The success of the Iphone (remember the original Iphone?) led to huge innovation in the mobile market.

Yeah, remember those phones that were before the original Iphone back in 2007? Yeah.. LOL

And that's one tech area that happened in the last 5 years.

I am sorry but the 'real world' doesn't abide by how you think it should. :)

 

You are more than welcomed to deny facts but don't be surprized if people call you out on it.

 

 

You could argue that the iPhone innovated based on the non user friendly FAILURE of the previous smartphones to capture a good market segment.

Except that the iPhone just recently incorporated many parts of Android's UI. The notification system and info panel, particularly. Those aspects of those phones were fantastic, it was just the physical design of the phones that sucked.

But your point contrasts mine nicely. I'm in the other camp. I think that when products are just pooped out into the market with nary a concern but for profit, everyone suffers.

Originally posted by Kakkzooka

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

 

You could argue that the iPhone innovated based on the non user friendly FAILURE of the previous smartphones to capture a good market segment.

Except that the iPhone just recently incorporated many parts of Android's UI. The notification system and info panel, particularly. Those aspects of those phones were fantastic, it was just the physical design of the phones that sucked.

But your point contrasts mine nicely. I'm in the other camp. I think that when products are just pooped out into the market with nary a concern but for profit, everyone suffers.

The financial sector has a saying 'Everyone is greedy'.

If a sector is successful, more companies jump in  -> more competition -> more innovation.

Its really eco-101 but not everyone follows the news or see what is actually happening in the real world I guess. vOv

Originally posted by Kakkzooka

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by huskie77

Originally posted by jpnz

EA / Bioware equals, 'here is my wallet, when can I get your next game?'

 

It is always funny to see people spout the 'failure leads to innovation' mantra.

It is a false statement proven throughout history that anyone that knows how the 'real world' works understands.

Your statement is complete gibberish. History has proven that failure does indeed lead to innovation. Saying otherwise and with certainty means your head is burried in the sand or an equally dark hole.

 

Get over your elitist self. It's fine not to agree with a point he makes, but don't state that a few million years of human history is bunk.

Oh?

Let me check the news on a certain company called Apple.

Iphones

The success of the Iphone (remember the original Iphone?) led to huge innovation in the mobile market.

Yeah, remember those phones that were before the original Iphone back in 2007? Yeah.. LOL

And that's one tech area that happened in the last 5 years.

I am sorry but the 'real world' doesn't abide by how you think it should. :)

 

You are more than welcomed to deny facts but don't be surprized if people call you out on it.

 

 

You could argue that the iPhone innovated based on the non user friendly FAILURE of the previous smartphones to capture a good market segment.

Except that the iPhone just recently incorporated many parts of Android's UI. The notification system and info panel, particularly. Those aspects of those phones were fantastic, it was just the physical design of the phones that sucked.

But your point contrasts mine nicely. I'm in the other camp. I think that when products are just pooped out into the market with nary a concern but for profit, everyone suffers.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Kakkzooka

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

 

You could argue that the iPhone innovated based on the non user friendly FAILURE of the previous smartphones to capture a good market segment.

Except that the iPhone just recently incorporated many parts of Android's UI. The notification system and info panel, particularly. Those aspects of those phones were fantastic, it was just the physical design of the phones that sucked.

But your point contrasts mine nicely. I'm in the other camp. I think that when products are just pooped out into the market with nary a concern but for profit, everyone suffers.

The financial sector has a saying 'Everyone is greedy'.

If a sector is successful, more companies jump in  -> more competition -> more innovation.

Its really eco-101 but not everyone follows the news or see what is actually happening in the real world I guess. vOv