Originally posted by xDayx

I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions. -snip-

Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

There's a couple of things I'd summarize goes close to the Virtual Worlds idea of VWRPG:

1. Worlds need to sustain a sense of truly large place.

-> Maps need to be looked at: potential for a node style travel between size of map; perhaps procedural generation?

-> Or if smaller and more connected/seemless and persistent, then more changeable and malleable.

2. Systems in mmorpgs need to be more integrated ie sandbox style.

-> combat although fun, there needs to be a meta-context to it to feed into the world consequences for qualification for VM-prefix.

-> avatars need to be have more states than a power progression and need to be objects as part of the world instead of demigods who don't need basics and where everyone is at the top of the pyriamid all the time.

--------------

One of the problems with achieving the above is that eg combat system may not be as fun as a more themepark-oriented design that takes dev time and money to nail this. Also most players really want to play a game with combat more than other activities. So how to promote the idea that players can do these things to feed into their combat to make it more rewarding and possibilities? Also the above system is more complex and that by necessity TAKES TIME to learn the game system. A lot of devs like to use current systems which most gamers are already schooled in using over years of use! Ack!

I am immensely enjoying Pathfinder Online blogs and intend to start EvE when time/cash permits. So there are some good egs that lean towards an alternative. DF and MO maybe as well, no idea about them.

Originally posted by xDayx

I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.

 

 

7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.

8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.

---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)

 

Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

 

 

 

I especially agree with 7 and 8. I once created a character and only had to walk it to the gate of the starter zone and it lvled. That just made me want to shake the devs until their teeth rattled.

These games cost 8 or 9 digit figures to make. Kind of obvious that they won't include mechanics that intimidate casuals and co.

Of course EvE has proven that it can be done... but I think those days are gone and they will not come back.

Originally posted by Cromica

Money is king and most players are to casual for almost everything on your list.  less casuals = less money.

This.

And even if the absolute number of players like you is not shrinking, it is a shrinking portion of the whole market. 

Sounds like MO and DF (waiting for DF2 myself) are the games for you and it's good that you've found them and enjoy them. Let's be glad we have those. Maybe one day, someone will make a UO2-type game properly.

Originally posted by xDayx

I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.

 

1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.

2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.

3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.

4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.

5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.

6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)

7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.

8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.

---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)

 

Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

 

 

 

Yes, you are alone. 

MMORPGs should be based on RPGs tabletop, PC or console.  Whenever you're in a dungeon in any of these games, you don't get a bunch of characters harrasing you while you tr y to save the town or rescue the princess. It's not why most people play MMOs. They play to play traditonal RPGs with friends. 

PVP, unstructured, is the worst thing ever introduced into a game. It's like role playing elements in an FPS.  It has no place in heroic adventuring. It feels like a way to appease people who don't like role playing games but like to kill things. 

I don't want to spend 5 days crafting.  There are games that have that much detail, they are business simulators. I'ms till not sure why crafting is a staple of MMOs.  

The risk in MMOs is the risk that has always existed in RPGs. Starting over. It sucks, it's a display of defeat, and its been a fine staple of the RPG world for 40 years.  The risk comes in traveling back through the dangerious area.  Good game design doesnt deprive you of your hard earnings.  It slows you down when you do bad, but it doesnt make you not want to come back.  Some of the most devasting feelings I have felt was was when i was playing guild wars 1, died and had to start a 40 minute mission over again.  

But like others said, if y9ou find something you like, stick to it.  It sounds like its working for you. But believe your product is a niche. It just doesn't sound fun at all.  No one wants to work while playing a game. I never have.  I want challenge, I want adventure, but I don't want to work an hour to get to the fun part.  

its wierd because i use to be a die hard advocate for themepark mmos. Now after the constant flood of shitty generic wow clones and after i experience Vanguard a sandpark game. I love sand boxes but i dont like full loot pvp. Make serperate servers or its a no for me.

I played Vanguard in Beta and visted back over the years and hated it. It seemed like such a buggy waste of potential. Came back again (about a month ago) and my wife and I are ridiculously immersed in this game more than any we have played since the original release EQ and the original release WoW.

For people looking for a game like the OP states I think this is a truly good option. Plus it is going F2P this summer. It has sandbox and themepark elements with consequences for failure, in depth crafting, a diplomacy system that is intriguing and unseen in other games.

It is not the "savior" for sandbox seekers but was surprisingly one of the only games I can say scartched the itch my wife and I had for years in regards to mmorpgs. Of course this game is not for everyone but alot of people who have already shrugged it off as a loss will be surprised at how much it will actually suit what they are looking for.

I don't think you're a minority, not in this forum at least, i might be inclined to say you're with the large majority.

Gaming as an all is a matter of taste and opinion, some people will love sandboxes, others will love FPS and so on and so forth.

You seem to be complaining because your particular taste isn't the mainstream, well...get over it, it happens with everything in entertainment, somehow the consumers go to what is popular and the corporations go with it to make money.

It's not how it should be, but you can't force people into liking what you believe is good, you can only try to show them and hope for the best.

With that said:

- I love risk and challenge, there's quite a few games out there with that. EVE, Mortal, Darkfall, Fallen Earth and quite a few on the making.

There's a huge difference from risk, challenge and frustration though, a line that in a MMO gets extremely blured, especially with vertical progression.

- Crafting as an all seems like an abandoned idea in most games, i do believe that this is again due to the progression models and the way they work, i for one would welcome horizontal progression games based on crafting and not looting.

- MMOs are a different breed when it comes to graphics, you can't ask to have a seamless world, with thousands of players in areas and have photo realistic graphics, we are getting there but still not close, alot of developers take the route that enables more gameplay options.

This has lead to "cartoony" games.

- Again, there are alot of sanboxes out there and quite a few coming out, you seem to be asking for Archage and at the same time complaining it's not for you.

- Agree on RMT.

- Instances can and will work amazingly for story purposes and specially for challenging content, open instances can be good but they can also be zerged into oblivion in matter of minutes, i do love the idea of open dungeons in the world, always have but on average they cannot be considered challenging content.

Instanced content isn't bad as long as it is designed to be a challenge to a group.

- Forced grouping is nice in some games, awfull in others, this again is a matter of the game you're playing and what you aim to do with your time, i'd rather have incentivated grouping then forced grouping.

- Unless you start as a baby i don't see the point of being in underwear, street clothing sure, but as long as the look matches the background story of the characters i don't see what's wrong with it.

TLDR version:

Play Archage.