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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is everyone so obsessed with "balance" and "fairness"?

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144 posts found
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16628

4/13/12 7:35:25 PM#41
Originally posted by Latella

I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that  every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.

So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not? ...

I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and  not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination....

Well, the question is valid.

In a PvE only game balance is not really a must, just that all classes should be a useful addition to a group or raid. P&P RPGs are rarely balanced, instead they focus on making all classes fun and useful.

But as soon as you add PvP to it the whole thing falls apart. Few players can stand being owned by other players becaus the class balance is severly off, they will either play another game, change to the best class or spend all their time whining about how some classes should be nerfed. 

Unbalanced games work in PvE if they are done right, we seen far too many games where some classes never gets invited to anything because they don´t really bring anything to the party.

But the only type of PvP you could have in a game like this is LOTRO styled monster PvP.

  Mehve

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 489

4/13/12 8:22:42 PM#42
Originally posted by bishbosh

so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.

i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.

The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".

PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.

Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.

A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/14/12 1:42:41 AM#43
Originally posted by Mehve
Originally posted by bishbosh

so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.

i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.

The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".

PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.

Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.

 

Neither 1) , 2) , pvp different from pve or  the holy trinity are mandatory, we have just become so accustomed to the wow-style game system, that we for the most part cannot imagine anything else.

Flame on!

:)

 

  dreamscaper

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/08
Posts: 1255

4/14/12 2:03:15 AM#44
Originally posted by Cecropia

The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

 

I think this pretty much sums it up.

<3

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1837

4/14/12 8:18:08 AM#45

I'm one of those that doesn't believe in class balance, whether it be PvE or PvP. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses, that only together with a group will they overcome those weaknesses. Kind of like how DAoC was balanced.

  Jakdstripper

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2108

4/14/12 8:22:30 AM#46

because absolutely no one plays a game so they can lose every single time. we have RL for that.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/14/12 8:57:55 AM#47
Originally posted by Starpower

You are asking why people in general are jealous or envious? That's a pretty big question. How much time do you have

It's a big question, but the answer is pretty short, "Because it's more fun."

Players like interesting decisions.

Balance creates interesting decisions.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

4/14/12 8:59:35 AM#48
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Starpower

You are asking why people in general are jealous or envious? That's a pretty big question. How much time do you have

It's a big question, but the answer is pretty short, "Because it's more fun."

Players like interesting decisions.

Balance creates interesting decisions.

 

But not when it is implemented as equality
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/14/12 9:02:29 AM#49
Originally posted by RefMinor 
But not when it is implemented as equality

Yeah but only someone with a very shallow understanding of balance assumes balance equals symmetry.

The most interesting games involve balanced asymmetry.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/14/12 9:02:42 AM#50
You don't need this balance thing for great pvp.

Daoc is the best pvp mmo to date (well best mmo full stop)

It has terrible balance
  Sentime

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/10/06
Posts: 277

4/14/12 9:03:05 AM#51
Originally posted by Cecropia

The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

 

Exactly.  People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

4/14/12 1:33:18 PM#52
Originally posted by Sentime
Originally posted by Cecropia

The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

 

Exactly.  People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.

How is balance and fairness the same as "everybody gets a medal"?  The NFL is set up with a fair and balanced system (same rules, salary cap, etc.).  Are you going to tell me that "everybody gets a medal" in the NFL (or the NHL, etc.)?  No, they don't.  We are not talking about everyone being the same or everyone having to win.  We are talking about making games so that people win based on their skill rather than their stats.

 

How fun would the NFL be if teams won because they had better helmets and shoulder pads?  I'd much rather see that they all have the same equipment and a level playing field and the team with the most skill, or drive, or whatever other intangible, wins.

 

So, no, it's not about "everybody gets a medal", it's about "if all stats are the same and you got owned, that player was better at the game than you".

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Betakodo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 339

4/14/12 1:37:19 PM#53

Balance for PvP skills is what people want. Else, everyone just uses the over powered class just to win.

Fairness as in not having buy to win. I've seen stupid iterations of trying to be fair to the casual gamer though, like FFXIV's exp fatigue and guildleve (Quest limit of 8 a day) system. That was stupid. I agree that stuff shouldn't be a gimme, but there should be challenging stuff that doesn't require you to get 40 people you don't like together to do something.

  Doomedfox

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/10
Posts: 696

4/14/12 1:37:40 PM#54
Originally posted by Corehaven

Probably because no matter the genre, mmo or otherwise, its still a GAME.  I'll repeat that.  Its a game. 

 

Or do people enjoy playing chess where one player gets all the pieces and the other has to remove their queen, knights, and bishops before they even begin to play? 

 

If some classes are overpowered whats the point of playing anything else other than those classes? 

Hmmm but would a Queen not be overpowered compared to a pawn?

Yet no one complained about it so far (at least not the chess games i played).

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

4/14/12 2:03:29 PM#55
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You don't need this balance thing for great pvp.

Daoc is the best pvp mmo to date (well best mmo full stop)

It has terrible balance

      Thats because DAoC was balanced for realm v realm warfare and the players grouped up to play......It really wasn't until WoW came around that balance became an issue...Before that we were all fine with imbalance because alot of us started with games that were far from balanced like EQ and D&D.

  Sora2810

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 567

4/14/12 5:02:55 PM#56

Ever watch a real immature fight, notice the loser calls the winner a cheater? Same principle. Fairness is one thing, If there is no possible ability combo or any way I could kill a certain class; that's unfair. If there's a way, but its more tedious; than it's fair.

Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  Mehve

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 489

4/14/12 5:40:08 PM#57
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Mehve

The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".

PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.

Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.

 

Neither 1) , 2) , pvp different from pve or  the holy trinity are mandatory, we have just become so accustomed to the wow-style game system, that we for the most part cannot imagine anything else.

Flame on!

:)

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree. But the number of MMO examples that don't use the Holy Trinity are extremely few, so by extension, the MMO player's crying for balance/fairness are almost certainly playing a Holy Trinity-sponsored game, with all the model's shortcomings. It's the reason GW2's been using it as one of their selling points, and I'm certainly hoping it catches on in future design.

A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2388

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

4/14/12 5:44:22 PM#58
Originally posted by MMOarQQ

Every Western kid is raised with the mentality that he's special, so of course all we special people have to be just as special; no more, no less.

This one made me laugh. For real?

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Shankenstien

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/18/10
Posts: 13

Imagine what i could do if i did all i can - Tsun Tzu

4/14/12 5:46:41 PM#59

Like they say if you don't know now you never will, simple answer is Ying and Yang, Masculine Feminine, Positive Negative, Up Down. Most of the most primal levels of human emotional and psychological development are based on balance, so, it could be argued it's genetic or at the very least subconcious  haha

WoW, LoTRO, AoC, DCU, EvE, RoM, Champions, Bloodline Champions, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, SWTOR, EQ2, Guild Wars

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4653

4/14/12 5:49:17 PM#60
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by MMOarQQ

Every Western kid is raised with the mentality that he's special, so of course all we special people have to be just as special; no more, no less.

This one made me laugh. For real?

So if everyone is special, then who is special among the special? I suppose westerners being special all starts in the education system. Reminds me of when my daughter was in Pre-K Soccer and they didn't keep score because none of the kids were any good and they didn't want them to feel like losers. So then I guess this must be what we call Special Education.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

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