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Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

This, too, is incorrect. For example, proximity is only one feature in aggro mechanics in GW2. For example, if you're closer to a mob than someone else doing damage, the mob is more likely to attack the person doing the damage. Other factors mentioned may be armor types, how damaged you are, etc. So no, there's no tanking in any sense of the trinity at all.

The trinity isn't dead in GW2... for it to be dead it had to exist in the first place. It's a different style of combat altogether.

 

Here's a little example pieced together looking at things like traits, etc. for the mesmer. I'm a mesmer, fighting a mob. I've traited my clones to apply cripples when shattered. I'm using a greatsword and a couple utilities that create clones and phantasms. So, I'm fighting this mob, trying to keep range. Create clone, F1, attack some, create, F2, attack... mob gets too close, use the knockback on the greatsword to send it flying, more clones, attacks, shatters... Now, this is a 1v1 type of scenario, so "support" isn't fully represented aside from self-heals, but as you can see there's no actual tanking going on here. In this case it's avoidance, using skills at need to keep the enemy controlled so I can maximize damage from the greatsword. Now, you can add another mob and a guardian, and working together we can keep both mobs controlled simultaneously while damaging, plus spells with supporting aspects on them now have a buddy they can apply to. There's no trinity gameplay here, just using the right skills to do the job at need.

I have played a tank in a MMO that mitgated damage by dodge and evade because it was a cloth class. How you cant see the basics of what makes up a trinity in a MMO I have no clue. Simple form is stand and click taunt and have a lot of plate armour. Sure there is other ways to do it and GW2 is walking a different path. Mesmers you use are a wonderful picture of this. Their portals they use cause a lot of aggro and have the mob runing in circles. Thats a taunt and damage mitigation in one skill. You would need to remove all healing and damage mitigation (tanking) for there to be no trinity.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

This, too, is incorrect. For example, proximity is only one feature in aggro mechanics in GW2. For example, if you're closer to a mob than someone else doing damage, the mob is more likely to attack the person doing the damage. Other factors mentioned may be armor types, how damaged you are, etc. So no, there's no tanking in any sense of the trinity at all.

The trinity isn't dead in GW2... for it to be dead it had to exist in the first place. It's a different style of combat altogether.

 

Here's a little example pieced together looking at things like traits, etc. for the mesmer. I'm a mesmer, fighting a mob. I've traited my clones to apply cripples when shattered. I'm using a greatsword and a couple utilities that create clones and phantasms. So, I'm fighting this mob, trying to keep range. Create clone, F1, attack some, create, F2, attack... mob gets too close, use the knockback on the greatsword to send it flying, more clones, attacks, shatters... Now, this is a 1v1 type of scenario, so "support" isn't fully represented aside from self-heals, but as you can see there's no actual tanking going on here. In this case it's avoidance, using skills at need to keep the enemy controlled so I can maximize damage from the greatsword. Now, you can add another mob and a guardian, and working together we can keep both mobs controlled simultaneously while damaging, plus spells with supporting aspects on them now have a buddy they can apply to. There's no trinity gameplay here, just using the right skills to do the job at need.

I have played a tank in a MMO that mitgated damage by dodge and evade because it was a cloth class. How you cant see the basics of what makes up a trinity in a MMO I have no clue. Simple form is stand and click taunt and have a lot of plate armour. Sure there is other ways to do it and GW2 is walking a different path. Mesmers you use are a wonderful picture of this. Their portals they use cause a lot of aggro and have the mob runing in circles. Thats a taunt and damage mitigation in one skill. You would need to remove all healing and damage mitigation (tanking) for there to be no trinity.

Those portals do what?

OK... you're making things up now. Portals cause aggro... lol. Made me giggle at work.

stay on topic

Wait and see..

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

They're also trying to use terminology people used to the archaic trinity model are used to. In practice, there is no trinity in GW2. The damage, control and support aspects are tied to your skills, with most skills having multiple aspects on them. For example, Chaos Storm damages enemies, applies random conditions to enemies (control) and random boons to allies (support). As such, you'll be using skills by what's needed at the time... a cripple on that mob over there, a boon application to some allies in a tough fight, burning down a mob someone else has snared, things like that. Basically, since you'll be using damage, control and support all at the same time the "role" concept is pretty well removed.

Tanking, DPS and healing is covered by all team members. Its a wecomed change but for the trinity to really be dead then there would never be any of the rolls, everyone would be DPS like in console games. Sure its not the standard way its set up in most MMOs but the trinity is very much alive and well in this game, just dressed in aa new set of duds. If it wasnt, no one would tank or heal even if only for a short duration and they do every time you team. Like already stated even the devs say its a soft trinity.

This is false. There is no "tanking", for example. There's control... you can kite mobs, block an attack, put up walls, things of that nature. You cannot, however, taunt a mob and absorb the damage it can give. Just like there are no healers. You can apply boons, you can apply ground targetting effects, but you can't target an ally and heal him. The basic fact that you have damage, control and support abilities on you at all times in a single build demonstrates that there's no intent for you to play a "role", at least in the archaic sense. Instead your apparent role with change with every next skill you use or spell you cast. A ranger will go from control (with shots that cripple, for example) to damage to support (healing rain, for example) with three presses of the keys. It's using the right skills at the right times for the best effect.

You'll see when you experience it in practice. Roles as you know them are pretty well defunct.

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

 Not that there's any clearly defined definitions, but what GW2 is getting rid of is the "Holy Trinity", and by that I mean the idea that there are three roles and players specialize in one of them to the exclusion of the other two.  Every piece of gear, gem, enchant, talent, glyph and ability you use is all focused on one aspect.  You can be a tanking warrior but if you want to be a viable DPS warrior, you swap literally everything.  GW2 might have "trinity" gameplay in that there is tanking, healing and DPS, but it's nowhere near WoW's "Holy Trinity".  That is what is being removed.  What is going on here is that people are arguing semantics.  You need to agree what "trinity" and "holy trinity" even mean before you can debate whether GW2 has them.

Not that there's anything special about a "trinity" to begin with.  What if, instead of a 5 person group of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS, mobs hit so hard that there had to be another pure debuffing class that you needed to bring along to make them manageable.  Then all groups would be 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 debuff, 2 DPS.  It'd be a "Holy Quaternary" or whatever.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

This, too, is incorrect. For example, proximity is only one feature in aggro mechanics in GW2. For example, if you're closer to a mob than someone else doing damage, the mob is more likely to attack the person doing the damage. Other factors mentioned may be armor types, how damaged you are, etc. So no, there's no tanking in any sense of the trinity at all.

The trinity isn't dead in GW2... for it to be dead it had to exist in the first place. It's a different style of combat altogether.

 

Here's a little example pieced together looking at things like traits, etc. for the mesmer. I'm a mesmer, fighting a mob. I've traited my clones to apply cripples when shattered. I'm using a greatsword and a couple utilities that create clones and phantasms. So, I'm fighting this mob, trying to keep range. Create clone, F1, attack some, create, F2, attack... mob gets too close, use the knockback on the greatsword to send it flying, more clones, attacks, shatters... Now, this is a 1v1 type of scenario, so "support" isn't fully represented aside from self-heals, but as you can see there's no actual tanking going on here. In this case it's avoidance, using skills at need to keep the enemy controlled so I can maximize damage from the greatsword. Now, you can add another mob and a guardian, and working together we can keep both mobs controlled simultaneously while damaging, plus spells with supporting aspects on them now have a buddy they can apply to. There's no trinity gameplay here, just using the right skills to do the job at need.

I have played a tank in a MMO that mitgated damage by dodge and evade because it was a cloth class. How you cant see the basics of what makes up a trinity in a MMO I have no clue. Simple form is stand and click taunt and have a lot of plate armour. Sure there is other ways to do it and GW2 is walking a different path. Mesmers you use are a wonderful picture of this. Their portals they use cause a lot of aggro and have the mob runing in circles. Thats a taunt and damage mitigation in one skill. You would need to remove all healing and damage mitigation (tanking) for there to be no trinity.

Those portals do what?

 

OK... you're making things up now. Portals cause aggro... lol. Made me giggle at work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRE20JDezNg

There's no taunt

Can't outheal damage

Everyone is everything

Aggro works differently

Control is temporary

Roles are dynamic

Combat is fluid

Learn to play

:)

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

They're also trying to use terminology people used to the archaic trinity model are used to. In practice, there is no trinity in GW2. The damage, control and support aspects are tied to your skills, with most skills having multiple aspects on them. For example, Chaos Storm damages enemies, applies random conditions to enemies (control) and random boons to allies (support). As such, you'll be using skills by what's needed at the time... a cripple on that mob over there, a boon application to some allies in a tough fight, burning down a mob someone else has snared, things like that. Basically, since you'll be using damage, control and support all at the same time the "role" concept is pretty well removed.

Tanking, DPS and healing is covered by all team members. Its a wecomed change but for the trinity to really be dead then there would never be any of the rolls, everyone would be DPS like in console games. Sure its not the standard way its set up in most MMOs but the trinity is very much alive and well in this game, just dressed in aa new set of duds. If it wasnt, no one would tank or heal even if only for a short duration and they do every time you team. Like already stated even the devs say its a soft trinity.

This is false. There is no "tanking", for example. There's control... you can kite mobs, block an attack, put up walls, things of that nature. You cannot, however, taunt a mob and absorb the damage it can give. Just like there are no healers. You can apply boons, you can apply ground targetting effects, but you can't target an ally and heal him. The basic fact that you have damage, control and support abilities on you at all times in a single build demonstrates that there's no intent for you to play a "role", at least in the archaic sense. Instead your apparent role with change with every next skill you use or spell you cast. A ranger will go from control (with shots that cripple, for example) to damage to support (healing rain, for example) with three presses of the keys. It's using the right skills at the right times for the best effect.

You'll see when you experience it in practice. Roles as you know them are pretty well defunct.

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

 Not that there's any clearly defined definitions, but what GW2 is getting rid of is the "Holy Trinity", and by that I mean the idea that there are three roles and players specialize in one of them to the exclusion of the other two.  Every piece of gear, gem, enchant, talent, glyph and ability you use is all focused on one aspect.  You can be a tanking warrior but if you want to be a viable DPS warrior, you swap literally everything.  GW2 might have "trinity" gameplay in that there is tanking, healing and DPS, but it's nowhere near WoW's "Holy Trinity".  That is what is being removed.  What is going on here is that people are arguing semantics.  You need to agree what "trinity" and "holy trinity" even mean before you can debate whether GW2 has them.

Not that there's anything special about a "trinity" to begin with.  What if, instead of a 5 person group of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS, mobs hit so hard that there had to be another pure debuffing class that you needed to bring along to make them manageable.  Then all groups would be 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 debuff, 2 DPS.  It'd be a "Holy Quaternary" or whatever.

I was about to post that last idea you through out - along with a lot of other crap.

If you think everyone is a tank because everyone takes damage, then everyone is a debuffer as well. Everyone is also a CCer. Which changes it from a trinity to a quintuple or whatever.

I would also like to mention that proximity is only one of the things that gets taken into account when the boss decides to focus someone and bosses often just randomly choose someone anyway. There were ranged bosses that would literally just randomly pick someone and if that player didn't roll or do something to stop damage, their group would be in serious trouble.

The trinity is truly dead at least at this point in GW2. 

Originally posted by Rednecksith

Spam dodge button

 

 

Since "dodge" has a cooldown, I was wondering how you can spam it.  I guess I haven't played enough (at all) so I missed this somewhere and would like to know your secret to spamming dodge.  Could you please expound on this a bit.  Spammers wanna know.

Finally "the one"?

Adapt or Die

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by cali59

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

They're also trying to use terminology people used to the archaic trinity model are used to. In practice, there is no trinity in GW2. The damage, control and support aspects are tied to your skills, with most skills having multiple aspects on them. For example, Chaos Storm damages enemies, applies random conditions to enemies (control) and random boons to allies (support). As such, you'll be using skills by what's needed at the time... a cripple on that mob over there, a boon application to some allies in a tough fight, burning down a mob someone else has snared, things like that. Basically, since you'll be using damage, control and support all at the same time the "role" concept is pretty well removed.

Tanking, DPS and healing is covered by all team members. Its a wecomed change but for the trinity to really be dead then there would never be any of the rolls, everyone would be DPS like in console games. Sure its not the standard way its set up in most MMOs but the trinity is very much alive and well in this game, just dressed in aa new set of duds. If it wasnt, no one would tank or heal even if only for a short duration and they do every time you team. Like already stated even the devs say its a soft trinity.

This is false. There is no "tanking", for example. There's control... you can kite mobs, block an attack, put up walls, things of that nature. You cannot, however, taunt a mob and absorb the damage it can give. Just like there are no healers. You can apply boons, you can apply ground targetting effects, but you can't target an ally and heal him. The basic fact that you have damage, control and support abilities on you at all times in a single build demonstrates that there's no intent for you to play a "role", at least in the archaic sense. Instead your apparent role with change with every next skill you use or spell you cast. A ranger will go from control (with shots that cripple, for example) to damage to support (healing rain, for example) with three presses of the keys. It's using the right skills at the right times for the best effect.

You'll see when you experience it in practice. Roles as you know them are pretty well defunct.

Tanking is in it simple form, damage mitigation. Most classes have it, not in the standard sense but they do have it. Every team member has to mitigate damage and take turns at it to win. They replaced taunt but who every is closest to the mob has aggro. So standing next to a mob is taunt. In basic MMO mechanics every team member takes turns tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 legs of the trinity. If there was no trinity there would be no legs other then DPS. Sure its handled different and a welcome change but dont be fooled the trinity is not dead in GW2. 

 Not that there's any clearly defined definitions, but what GW2 is getting rid of is the "Holy Trinity", and by that I mean the idea that there are three roles and players specialize in one of them to the exclusion of the other two.  Every piece of gear, gem, enchant, talent, glyph and ability you use is all focused on one aspect.  You can be a tanking warrior but if you want to be a viable DPS warrior, you swap literally everything.  GW2 might have "trinity" gameplay in that there is tanking, healing and DPS, but it's nowhere near WoW's "Holy Trinity".  That is what is being removed.  What is going on here is that people are arguing semantics.  You need to agree what "trinity" and "holy trinity" even mean before you can debate whether GW2 has them.

Not that there's anything special about a "trinity" to begin with.  What if, instead of a 5 person group of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS, mobs hit so hard that there had to be another pure debuffing class that you needed to bring along to make them manageable.  Then all groups would be 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 debuff, 2 DPS.  It'd be a "Holy Quaternary" or whatever.

I was about to post that last idea you through out - along with a lot of other crap.

 

If you think everyone is a tank because everyone takes damage, then everyone is a debuffer as well. Everyone is also a CCer. Which changes it from a trinity to a quintuple or whatever.

 

I would also like to mention that proximity is only one of the things that gets taken into account when the boss decides to focus someone and bosses often just randomly choose someone anyway. There were ranged bosses that would literally just randomly pick someone and if that player didn't roll or do something to stop damage, their group would be in serious trouble.

 

The trinity is truly dead at least at this point in GW2. 

How is that any different that any other MMO that has the standard tanking? In EQ1 I seen Inny boss kill someone AFK. Thats as standard as MMOs go as far back as any MMOs I have played in 13 years.

Originally posted by GWFandaddy

Originally posted by Rednecksith

Spam dodge button

 

 

Since "dodge" has a cooldown, I was wondering how you can spam it.  I guess I haven't played enough (at all) so I missed this somewhere and would like to know your secret to spamming dodge.  Could you please expound on this a bit.  Spammers wanna know.

It cost endurance so you cant spam it. 

Originally posted by cali59

 Not that there's any clearly defined definitions, but what GW2 is getting rid of is the "Holy Trinity", and by that I mean the idea that there are three roles and players specialize in one of them to the exclusion of the other two.  Every piece of gear, gem, enchant, talent, glyph and ability you use is all focused on one aspect.  You can be a tanking warrior ...

Actually, you can't even do that. They've often stated that any warrior that tries to "tank" will spend more time on the ground than not.

Originally posted by GWFandaddy

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