There have been a couple of misteps lately: the bad 1.2 patch, and the botched "valued" customer program. This appears to be because of in-experience. BW has never done a MMO before, never had to patch on the fly, never worried about keeping customers engaged for months.

So, is it BW and the fact that they are new to this MMO game? Or is is EA and some kind of meddling or mismanagement?

I vote EA.  Bioware has rushed 3 games to market before they were done or before they had a firm game plan. I just don't believe that the makers of Neverwinter Knight, Jade Eimpire and KOTR would put out a drabby product like Dragon AGe 2, a botched ending to a product like mass effect 3, and a clearly unfinished product like SWTOR without EA pushing. 

Swtor pushed out before the legacy system was complete is like Anet pushing out GW2 without Dynamic evnts finished.  It's pushing out a mario game without Koopa designed.  I

I an't imagine that Bioware saw what games like Rift was doing with dynamic content and thought it'd be a great idea to have so much of the game instanced (a much quicker method for design).  I bet someone there wanted to put that kind of stuff in, but were hampered by trying to beat the end of the 4th quarter. 

There is no more EA or BW.

BW is not separate company anymore. It is a brand within EA.

BW = EA.

Bioware haven't made a decent game since NWN 1, in my opinion.

Originally posted by olepi

There have been a couple of misteps lately: the bad 1.2 patch, and the botched "valued" customer program. This appears to be because of in-experience. BW has never done a MMO before, never had to patch on the fly, never worried about keeping customers engaged for months.

So, is it BW and the fact that they are new to this MMO game? Or is is EA and some kind of meddling or mismanagement?

Probably a combination of the two. We know that EA is notorious for pushing games into release status without being ready, and their history with MMO's isn't much to be proud about (WAR, what they did to Ultima Online). We also know that much of what we relate to Bioware's past successes were developed and lead by completely different individuals, and has almost no bearing or semblance to the Bioware of ten, five, or two years ago.

Personally, I believe the talent simply isn't present amongst their development community, as the Bioware I once admired really isn't represented by their current staffing, and I also believe that EA is mismanaging the project much like they did with Warhammer and UO. There's really nothing that can be done to prove any of this beyond a doubt, though it does feel like history repeating itself.

Originally posted by dontadow

I vote EA.  Bioware has rushed 3 games to market before they were done or before they had a firm game plan. I just don't believe that the makers of Neverwinter Knight, Jade Eimpire and KOTR would put out a drabby product like Dragon AGe 2, a botched ending to a product like mass effect 3, and a clearly unfinished product like SWTOR without EA pushing. 

Swtor pushed out before the legacy system was complete is like Anet pushing out GW2 without Dynamic evnts finished.  It's pushing out a mario game without Koopa designed.  I

I an't imagine that Bioware saw what games like Rift was doing with dynamic content and thought it'd be a great idea to have so much of the game instanced (a much quicker method for design).  I bet someone there wanted to put that kind of stuff in, but were hampered by trying to beat the end of the 4th quarter. 

I agree completely, i think Bio could still produce rock solid games, but not under the control of EA. All EA does is rush games by the end of the year, not caring what the results would be. If they would've waited another year on this game, done further beta testing, the game would've come out much better, with more features like everyone expected it to come out with, but the EA monster had other plans, and now i'm afraid there isn't a lot that can turn it around. If only bioware didn't give into EA. EA has a history of ruining great devs and their companies, look at mythic. What EA did to DAoC killed half the player population with one expansion. Then it went into a panic mode of balancing classes every two weeks. EA shouldn't legally be allowed to touch MMORPGs. They do great FPS, but they can't handle this genre IMO.

Originally posted by fenistil

There is no more EA or BW.

 

BW is not separate company anymore. It is a brand within EA.

 

BW = EA.

Bioware is a development house owned by EA, who are their publisher.  Though, I agree with the fact that it seems more and more now that Bioware is not selfmanaging themselves but being managed. 

Right... and that's because NO other major MMO company (including all the big boys) to this day have to bring servers down and put in emergency patches after major patches and expansions...

eh yea...  They're a bunch n00b programmers.  *boggle*

I'm no TOR fanboi, but seriously?  99% of the people that come to these forums dont' work in the industy, yet always seem to have a "know-it-all" and "I could do better" attitude about almost everything out there.

So funny to how people Fanboi so many games then turn like rabid dogs on them in a month (just waiting for the Tera (which sucks I'm in BETA) and GW2's fall from grace).

Oh well, sorry, didn't mean to rant... but these forums need a reality check sometimes on 95% of what's said (me included, I'm not above it).

Originally posted by Beachcomber

Bioware haven't made a decent game since NWN 1, in my opinion.

 

 

I liked Baldurs Gate 2(not sure if that's before or after nwn1).  And though I didn't like KOTOR I think it was good for a casual, console based rpg aimed primarily at the 13-15 yr olds(if it wasn't this then wasn't good)

Wait, people think these mistakes are being made by EA, their publisher?

Bioware. They are now a division of EA. The developers within the Bioware division of EA are of the ones at fault for any mistakes made during developement.

How could one possibly see it any other way? Is there just residual love for Bioware and fully developed hatred for EA?

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by fenistil

There is no more EA or BW.

 

BW is not separate company anymore. It is a brand within EA.

 

BW = EA.

 

This

yeah it is THIS !

todays bioware is not dev team who make epic Baldurs Gate & KOTOR...

only name is rest , EA/BW   making nice looking sterile SP rpg's & SP games + MP with monthly sub

At this point it's probably a combination of the two however I think the game is in this mess because EA pushed for the release in 2011 so it didn't conflict with Diablo 3. To be fair the game would probably be released around this time otherwise with all of the 1.2 patch completed and many of the problems before already ironed out.

Originally posted by Fluxii

Right... and that's because NO other major MMO company (including all the big boys) to this day have to bring servers down and put in emergency patches after major patches and expansions...

 

eh yea...  They're a bunch n00b programmers.  *boggle*

 

I'm no TOR fanboi, but seriously?  99% of the people that come to these forums dont' work in the industy, yet always seem to have a "know-it-all" and "I could do better" attitude about almost everything out there.

 

So funny to how people Fanboi so many games then turn like rabid dogs on them in a month (just waiting for the Tera (which sucks I'm in BETA) and GW2's fall from grace).

 

Oh well, sorry, didn't mean to rant... but these forums need a reality check sometimes on 95% of what's said (me included, I'm not above it).

 

Coherency would be nice too. 

I don't know of a major MMO that had a meltdown like SWTOR has had 4 months after it's release. But feel free to name them. NOr can I name an MMO that toted so many new innovtaions, including the legacy system, only to not have it  ready at launch and to roll back on the promises of a lto of other things.  

I can't name a design company that has had this much flack for their last 3 games.  Bioware, since Ea purchased them, have gone from publishing a series of great games to publishing okay games. They are riding off of their reputation.   The only thing that has changes is their purchase of EA.  

Bioeware got clear feedback from its beta tests that the game felt empty, the istances wer edistracting, the game felt repetitive at later areas, grindy after the 20s.  These are things that could have been staped out in a year or 2 of closed beta testing.  They refused to do this.  

I know we all hate wow, but wow was in development for 5 years. Gw 2 for 5 years. SWTOR 3 years.  It shows. 

Originally posted by colddog04

Wait, people think these mistakes are being made by EA, their publisher?

 

Bioware. They are now a division of EA. The developers within the Bioware division of EA are of the ones at fault for any mistakes made during developement.

 

How could one possibly see it any other way? Is there just residual love for Bioware and fully developed hatred for EA?

I'm no fan of either recently, but we're talking about the same things. EA, Bioware: they are one in the same, except one's in control of administration and the other's in direct control of development. Here's a good article explaining their relationship:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-03-bioware-ea-doesnt-tell-us-what-to-do

Probably both.

I never really liked Bioware. I just played their games because if you like RPG's, you don't have much choice. But if I am honest, Baldur's gate was not my favorite. Planescape: Torment and Fallout are to me clearly better games. Even the flawed Vampire the Masquarade was a better RPG. Baldur's Gate was just big and it was a nice setting but that gives a place in the top 10 list, not top 3.

Recently Bioware has been really screwing up.

Kotor 1: Was it so well received because it was a perfect game OR because we finally got a Star Wars RPG? I thought Kotor 2 was the better RPG, not as good as a finished game but I am a PC gamer, I am immune to bugs.

Jade Empire: Fighting far to simplistic, long delayed PC launch, hopelessly outdated engine. Most of the fun for me was that it was a western RPG in a unique setting (for a western RPG at least). No sequal in sight. Same as Kotor 1 with the option to shift alignment completely just before the end and good/evil being more not insane/total asshat.

Dragon Age: Was supposed to be new and exciting and dark and totally not standard D&D... so, why did it all feel instantly familiar. About the only change I could detect was the absence of high elf's. Instead you had supressed wood-elfs. How original! Dark boring armour and not getting that if you launch a demo where people can spend hours making their new characters head, they don't want it hidden behind an ugly leather helmet.

Mass Effect: Well, enough about that. Sold well but it is not like RPG players have a choice. The outrage on ME3 seems to basically be about the whole series, we expected more.

SWTOR: I play it now, on occasion as a VERY slow paced Kotor3. The story really slows down at higher levels and the combat just hasn't improved to be anything but a bore. 

And during it all, the marketing/pr team swallows the fans praise whole and dismisses complaints by others as a few mal contents. Pity that with a MMO, people CAN vote with their dollars BEYOND the initial "got to have the shiny" purchase. I bought the shiny but will not pay for another subscription. And judging from server figures and the desperation with the 30 and 6 free days to get people back, I am not alone.

Someday, someone in MMO land will ask "what did Blizzard do so fucking right that they managed to get not just more then anyone else to play their game but kept them for longer then anyone else" and not come up with "make it easier" as an answer.

Marketing/PR is often not so much about saying the right thing, but avoiding saying the completely utterly stupid thing you will regret for the rest of you life.

A lawyer will tell you to shut the fuck up and let him do the talking. A good PR man will tell you to shut the fuck up until you have considered every angle of how what you are going to say is going to be interpreted by EVERYONE and then only say it, when EVERY interpretation is in your benefit.

Think of it like this, you have a brand product and put an artist face on it, NOT everyone will like that artist, is the positive reaction worth the negative? Do you want to be the soft drink promoted by the child molesting freak?

Bioware goofed and it was a goof that didn't need to be made. Downtime, crashes, bugs, performance issues, these things are hard to avoid. But all this needed was a good PR man looking at the message and realising that it would alienate PAYING, not potential, ACTIVELY paying customers. Never should have made it past PR. That it did, says a lot.

This should have been vetted by Bioware, EA and Lucasarts and NONE of them caught it. It explains a lot.

Dont forget Lucas Arts

This is what happens when you have 3 Big Corporations with a bunch of Big Shots, with Big $$$ and BIG EGOS who bought a new and unproven game engine and then hired a bunch of interns with associate degrees from Fullsail, Art institute, ITT and any other Herp-A-Derp school to make a game for them

Originally posted by Fluxii

Right... and that's because NO other major MMO company (including all the big boys) to this day have to bring servers down and put in emergency patches after major patches and expansions...

 eh yea...  They're a bunch n00b programmers.  *boggle*

 I'm no TOR fanboi, but seriously?  99% of the people that come to these forums dont' work in the industy, yet always seem to have a "know-it-all" and "I could do better" attitude about almost everything out there.

 So funny to how people Fanboi so many games then turn like rabid dogs on them in a month (just waiting for the Tera (which sucks I'm in BETA) and GW2's fall from grace).

 Oh well, sorry, didn't mean to rant... but these forums need a reality check sometimes on 95% of what's said (me included, I'm not above it). 

We're talking about Bioware here.  Long time veterans in the industry back by some of the most dosh a video game company would likely ever see.

A little bit of observation and they could have avoided so many of the pitfalls that they've fallen into and are currently creating for themselves.

Originally posted by colddog04

Wait, people think these mistakes are being made by EA, their publisher?

 

Bioware. They are now a division of EA. The developers within the Bioware division of EA are of the ones at fault for any mistakes made during developement.

 

How could one possibly see it any other way? Is there just residual love for Bioware and fully developed hatred for EA?

The publisher declares when you will sell the game, so no matter what the developer thinks, the plublisher wnats a finished copy on a specific day. The publisher is dealing with stock owners, and investors.  The state of the game isn't important. I guarantee you there's a spreadsheet out there somewhere that shows the probability of the game stil make a profit despite it being unfinished.  Something that calculate the loyalty of Star wars and Bioware fans to support an unifnished product anot care about some of the features that they left on the cutting floor. 

These are not design mistakes. Creative people tend to want to have as much time as possible to complete things. PReviously, bioware spent a lot more development time on a game.   EA has proven with other development houses that they keep strict schedules and will bring a game to market without features if they feel it is complete "enough".  Bioware had no history of this before being purchased. 

It's this guy!