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Rofl any time i swing an axe, this is hard ... character stops swinging axe, try to learn spells, too much work character goes and plays a video game... dam this is no fun at all.

I think it's a fine balance between immersive gameplay and fun factor.  I honestly get slightly annoyed by quick overencumberance in Elder Scrolls, but at the same time, I LOVE that the aspect is there.

In MY opinion, I feel that games should pay more attention to what it is that characters have to achieve to face certain encounters, and make the acquisition of the items needed WORTHY of the effort.

Take World of Warcraft, and The Burning Crusade expansion, for example.  In The Black Temple, for the Mother Shahraz encounter, players basically had to stop progression until they acquired high levels of Shadow resistance, then they were forced to carry multiple pieces of gear that basically neutered their performance, specifically for that encounter alone.

• The acquisition of Shadow resist gear that met the level needed for the encounter far exceeded what anyone could obtain through normal means.
• It meant that raid groups had to repeat other content for a period of weeks before they accumulated enough materials to craft resist gear for their entire raid party. 
• If the raid group managed to farm enough material, only to have several members not show up for the day of the encounter, then it halted progression. 
• If the raid group had some members that had active schedules outside the game, then efforts to supply those members with gear slowed the progression.

Afterward, the gear was practically useless.  The encounter had been tailored specifically for this major stumbling block, but afterward, it was never required again, with possibly the exception of a Warlock Shadow Tank for the Illidan encounter.

This sort of "realism" mechanic could leave a sour taste in the mouths of some players, especially those that don't normally have time to participate in raid progression, but want to see what else the game has to offer besides open world content.

It's a balance of immerive elements versus ease of acquisition and the longevity of its functionality.  No one would find a barrage of harsh conditions that they couldn't overcome quickly any sort of fun, and I don't blame some people for reacting negatively and flat out saying, "No!"

BUT...

...I think it's well worth the time to discuss the upsides and downsides of why these types of elements should be implemented.  There are plenty of positive AND negative examples of why people would or would not want to see these kinds of elements included in their MMO experience. 

However, it baffles me that ANYONE would want to argue on the side of total exclusion of these elements, thus keeping the bar of innovative gameplay set at the low standards that it seems to be at--- in its current state.

What examples do YOU have that make you absolutely refuse to accept this type of game design?  Why was that a negative experience for you?

Exploring those questions might give us a better idea of how we might overcome the negative aspects of immersive elements and "realism" that take away from the 'fun factor'.

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Let's stick to the topic discussion at hand and not other users, guys. Thanks!

Originally posted by BartDaCat

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i'm not totally opposed to the concept.

i'm opposed to the simplistic way that it was presented.

almost anything has potential to be used well, if it has enough supporting elements that interact with it in interesting ways.

simply having an extra item to put in and take out of the bank over and over again depending on what environment you want to explore, is only annoyance, with no interesting interplay with the rest of the games elements.

it COULD be designed to be interesting with other supporting elements/aspects of the game, but until somebody designs those, and presents a fleshed out and interesting use of them..............

i'm not gonna spend MY time trying to flesh out that (so far) simplistic idea when i have thousands of other more promising game design ideas to concern myself with.

its no worse than several other well established RPG cliches that are just pointless busywork tho......... so for people who don't see them as being pointless...... by all means.   add a shitload of these kind of things to your game.  have your fun. 

the majority seems to like it, and might DOES make right.....  WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO commercial concerns.

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by BartDaCat

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i'm not totally opposed to the concept.

i'm opposed to the simplistic way that it was presented.

almost anything has potential to be used well, if it has enough supporting elements that interact with it in interesting ways.

 simply having an extra item to put in and take out of the bank over and over again depending on what environment you want to explore, is only annoyance, with no interesting interplay with the rest of the games elements.

 it COULD be designed to be interesting with other supporting elements/aspects of the game, but until somebody designs those, and presents a fleshed out and interesting use of them..............

 i'm not gonna spend MY time trying to flesh out that (so far) simplistic idea when i have thousands of other more promising game design ideas to concern myself with.

 its no worse than several other well established RPG cliches that are just pointless busywork tho......... so for people who don't see them as being pointless...... by all means.   add a shitload of these kind of things to your game.  have your fun. 

the majority seems to like it, and might DOES make right.....  WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO commercial concerns.

For me, something like that...:

-shouldn't be created to punish players.

-should never be crippling.

-should largely be focused on trying to bring more immersion to the environment, rather than creating more tedium.  It should give the feeling that your character is toughing it out, plodding through a stinging, blinding snowstorm, for example.  LotRO, the east side of the Misty Mountains comes to mind, where the snow can blow so hard that visibility is severely diminished.  That sort of extreme should be pretty rare(though I wish they'd extend it to the basic weather system, on occasion), but IMO it's those sorts of things that make a zone stand out among others.

as far as immersion goes, the picture of the woman in a metal bikini standing in the snow IS immersion breaking, and i am all for trying to take care of things like that when it doesn't make gameplay more annoying.

for my tastes, gameplay smoothness usually takes precedence over immersion.

 i wouldn't have metal bikinis in the first place....... but if i was gonna try to solve this, i would just make wintercoats that could be worn over armour, and make it soulbound.  and automatically put it on and take it off as regional temperatures dictated.

now that i think of it, its the same way GW2 is doing with the underwater breathing masks.

no inventory or bank space to occupy, no hassle to change clothes, no running to the bank to get/take these kinds of items.

for anyone that hates my "solution" (to the visual appearance problem),......... do you also hate GW2's underwater mask?  if not, where does the difference lie?

Originally posted by corpusc

as far as immersion goes, the picture of the woman in a metal bikini standing in the snow IS immersion breaking, and i am all for trying to take care of things like that when it doesn't make gameplay more annoying.

 

for my tastes, gameplay smoothness usually takes precedence over immersion.

 i wouldn't have metal bikinis in the first place....... but if i was gonna try to solve this, i would just make wintercoats that could be worn over armour, and make it soulbound.  and automatically put it on and take it off as regional temperatures dictated.

now that i think of it, its the same way GW2 is doing with the underwater breathing masks.

no inventory or bank space to occupy, no hassle to change clothes, no running to the bank to get/take these kinds of items.

 

 

for anyone that hates my "solution" (to the visual appearance problem),......... do you also hate GW2's underwater mask?  if not, where does the difference lie?

Everyone knows one of the cardinal rules of RPGery is that the less skin a female character's armor covers, the more it protects her. This, sir, is sacrilige!

Seriously, though, its not a terrible idea, but I think it should be something that's selectable, like how a lot of games allow you to hide your helmet. A lot of people go to great lengths to customize their characters' appearances. Its not really fair to go and hide their customizations from them without their consent.

I understand you're going for realism, but not everyone likes "too much" realism.

Might add to the fun of a mmorpg... not putting a wool cloak to keep you warm, you may be able to inflict damage with your pokies as a female toon...

Pokies inflicted 38 damage to the wolf.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

 

I understand you're going for realism, but not everyone likes "too much" realism.

i don't know that i ever go for "realism".  its one of my main rants against most of the things i hate in modern games.  such as all the military fetish FPS games.  the gameplay gets severely hampered by trying to be too "realistic".  and always fails at being realistic anyways.

i am ANTI-realism to a large extent.

i just like attempts to be made to suspend disbelief........WHEN it can be done without mucking up the gameplay.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I understand you're going for realism, but not everyone likes "too much" realism.

Mostly agree.  My hopes aren't really so much about realism(particularly of the "gotcha" kind... DM:  "you didn't say you ate rations... you starve to death.  Reroll...") at all, but rather that the environment means something.  Even if it's something as simple as a character doing a shivering emote when standing still in the cold or whatnot.  Some indication that your character is standing around in sub-zero weather, other than the fact that the ground is white.

Not to start another topic, but to me it's much like the difference between a game where in a fight, weapons connect and visually block and strike an opponent, and a game where 2 avatars swing a weapon in the other's general direction while a bunch of numbers fly up. 

Silly as it is, I always had that idea for a game. Realism can be really engaging into the environment if done right. Biggest issue comes into placing it in a game without making it to tedious. It won't work on every game but there are some that I see it being great in.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I understand you're going for realism, but not everyone likes "too much" realism.

Mostly agree.  My hopes aren't really so much about realism(particularly of the "gotcha" kind... DM:  "you didn't say you ate rations... you starve to death.  Reroll...") at all, but rather that the environment means something.  Even if it's something as simple as a character doing a shivering emote when standing still in the cold or whatnot.  Some indication that your character is standing around in sub-zero weather, other than the fact that the ground is white.

Not to start another topic, but to me it's much like the difference between a game where in a fight, weapons connect and visually block and strike an opponent, and a game where 2 avatars swing a weapon in the other's general direction while a bunch of numbers fly up. 

 

exactly those kinda things are my idea as to the proper "solution".   coats (visuals), shivering animations, spewing breath clouds out of your mouth, maybe sniffling, chattering teeth, etc.....  things that don't muck up the gameplay but just increase the immersion.  

Originally posted by corpusc

as far as immersion goes, the picture of the woman in a metal bikini standing in the snow IS immersion breaking, and i am all for trying to take care of things like that when it doesn't make gameplay more annoying.

I actually don't see it that way, because in real life, you will constantly see girls go out in 0 degree weather with the skimpiest outfits imaginable.

I remember one of the coldest winters where I, a person who rarely has to get warmer and loves the cold, had to wear a jacket (or maybe even a coat). I was going to the mall, and while I was there this girl walked in wearing those hip fad eskimo boots, and absolutely nothing until her butt cheek (the short shorts were REALLY short), and a top that covered only her upper torso (with no sleeves). Probably one of the most skimpiest outfits ive ever seen, on one of the coldest days I've ever been in.

Anytime it ever gets really really cold, you will still see women dressing up as if the weather didn't matter because fashion is far more important to them than comfort will ever be.

So to see a metal bikini girl standing in the snow, to me, is the opposite of immersion breaking. It actually makes perfect sense, because that is EXACTLY what some girls are like in real life.

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

Originally posted by corpusc

 

I remember one of the coldest winters where I, a person who rarely has to get warmer and loves the cold, had to wear a jacket (or maybe even a coat). I was going to the mall, and while I was there this girl walked in wearing those hip fad eskimo boots, and absolutely nothing until her butt cheek (the short shorts were REALLY short), and a top that covered only her upper torso (with no sleeves). Probably one of the most skimpiest outfits ive ever seen, on one of the coldest days I've ever been in.

I want to live where you live

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

So to see a metal bikini girl standing in the snow, to me, is the opposite of immersion breaking. It actually makes perfect sense, because that is EXACTLY what some girls are like in real life.

sure..... completely ignore the context.   there is an extreme difference between being right next to a heated building and being able to take a little bit of cold for brief periods, versus being out in a blizzard far away from civilization.  one is a minor annoyance, and the other is a matter of life and death.

you mentioned in another thread about a "personal vendetta".

thats exactly what this seems like.  saying something completely irrational, seemingly just to oppose me.  but then again, it may be just that you are always posting irrational things, regardless of what anyone else posts.  and maybe you really DO think it makes perfect sense.   i wouldn't want to bet on where the truth lies.  8)

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

So to see a metal bikini girl standing in the snow, to me, is the opposite of immersion breaking. It actually makes perfect sense, because that is EXACTLY what some girls are like in real life.

 

sure..... completely ignore the context.   there is an extreme difference between being right next to a heated building and being able to take a little bit of cold for brief periods, versus being out in a blizzard far away from civilization.  one is a minor annoyance, and the other is a matter of life and death.

I guess no one here is allowed to have any fun or interesting conversations huh?

Captain Buzz Kill and the Bringdown Police are here to make sure none of that happens.

Originally posted by madazz
Most people couldnt even handle real open pvp which adds realism, but you want to be annoyed with changing clothes all the time? How about we also make it so our inventory is more realistic, also need to eat often, drink, sleep.... I just know it wouldn't be fun.

What aspects of "real open pvp" are you talking about?  That's a broad statement, and I think there are plenty of games that address various forms of "open PvP", so what do you think is lacking?