In my opinion, the word "Hardcore" simply referred to the length of time it takes to level. Atleast this is what it meant back in the day. With EQ1, you would be killing mobs that was only killable in a full group for hours for small amounts of XP. When WoW & EQ2 hit, you could level so quickly it was laughable. 

However, times change and leveling no longer serves as a time sink as such, its easily done these days. Since WoW & EQ2 and then on after, "Hardcore", to me, relates to the Raid/PvP difficulty. Though, not many people want difficulty in this gaming industry, hence why so many raids are a walk in the park and PvP is completely pointless other than grinding tokens or something like that. 

Originally posted by Adamantine

Hardcore means high challenge.

 

Too harsh death penalties in general only lead to people avoiding taking risk.

I recently experienced that as a level 50+ character in Vanguard - every death means I had to kill hundreds of mobs to compensate the xp loss, which got worse and worse the closer I got to maxlevel - thus I started quickly to avoid any risks at all. Finally getting to 55 (maxlevel) was a huge relief.

A real hardcore game can thus not have too harsh death penalties. For hardcore means there is a challenge - thus, if the game forces you to avoid challenges, obviously its not hardcore.

Specifically, permadeath definitely makes a game casual. In fact, massively so. You cannot accumulate any progress, you can only make a highscore list - how long has your character survived. Thus, it cannot get more casual than that. Permadeath results in tetris gaming.

 

Full loot simply means the game cannot be itemfocussed, removing one possible variable of progress. Thus the game turns simpler and less challenging. Thus again not a factor for "hardcore".

 

FFA PvP is not hardcore. Its just pure chaos. Most of the time it will just result in highlevels ganking lowlevels at zero risk. There is zip challenge for the highlevel and zip chance to fight back for the lowlevel. Thus, no challenge at all and not hardcore.

 

Your logic seems to be all upside down. Harsh death penalties are signs of casual gameplay? I don't think so. Losing hours of in-game work (by losing exp, loot and gear - or even your char - upon death) means you have to spend more time in-game to get it back = bigger time investment = a more "hardcore" game.

No death penalties = less time investment = a more casual game. 

The fact that you personally avoid challenges does not mean that the challenges don't exist; hardcore does not necessarily mean that only one playstyle is possible. It's all about risk vs reward, especially in FFA PVP games like EVE; you can play it safe and grind away for months in high sec, or you can go into null sec and get the same reward in a couple of hours, of course risking your ship and your char in the process. 

In VG you risk losing exp by taking risks, but apparently you can also chose to play it safe - which means more time is needed to reach level cap. The challenge is there, but so is the option to avoid it. To me that's good design. 

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Originally posted by Biskop

Your logic seems to be all upside down. [...]

Sorry, but your definition of hardcore compiles to "boring".

I dont consider it hardcore if a game bores me. I consider it boring.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

His post wasn't even worth a response mate, probably a troll. 

Anyone that has played the two know the only similarities between the game is that they are both online and are both fantasy. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything else in-game is much different. 

Two good games, for different reasons, IMO.

PS: Would love to see FrostWyrm answer your questions, but he should run for the hills with his tail between his legs!

Originally posted by Gaxusn

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

His post wasn't even worth a response mate, probably a troll. 

Anyone that has played the two know the only similarities between the game is that they are both online and are both fantasy. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything else in-game is much different. 

Two good games, for different reasons, IMO.

I agree mate,both good games but miles apart.

PS: Would love to see FrostWyrm answer your questions, but he should run for the hills with his tail between his legs!

He wont answer,i mean what can he really say.

Vanguard hardcore? LOL

I agree that WoW and Vanguard are nothing alike, but for different reasons. WoW has a level of polish and amount of content that Vanguard can be nowhere near.

Let's be honest here: if they'd allowed Vanguard another year to polish and finish everything like they wanted to, it'd have been a quality title at launch instead of the buggy game with the unfinished feel to it that it was at launch. What's more, in the 4-5 years since its launch, further development of the title has been nothing but glacial: had it gotten the dev attention that MMO's like WoW, LotrO, EQ2 or even an AoC or Champions Online got after launch, then it would've been at a great stage now.

But as it is, Vanguard seems to be like an unpolished 2007 game barely a year after its launch when it comes to dev investment. Which is a shame, but it is like it is.

As for hardcore, personally I consider games like EQ and EVE hardcore in their design. Wouldn't say that about VG. It's different, but that doesn't make a game hardcore. It has become niche for other reasons.

My definition of hardcore: you understand what M59 is. 

The current generations definition of Hardcore is a game that doesn't hold your hand and guide you through content. It's understandable; I guess vanguard 'could*' be seen as hardcore; but in honesty, it doesn't require hours of time in research in order to learn to play unlike other MMO's out there. 

Really I think it boils down to the style of play. I won't even begin trying to touch the thought of the constrast's between Eve and WoW in styles of play. Vanguard however is far from hardcore. Don't worry. If it feels hard, g&g (Google & Guilds). They'll get you through any game.

Vanguard is the spiritual successor to EQ1. WoW is the lego version of EQ1. So I can see where you might see similarities. But the class depth of Vanguard is like night and day compared to the watered down WoW classes. And the game is a lot more brutal if you arent careful with pulling mobs.

You can die easily if you get overwhelmed, and if you die you lose a big chunk of XP and all non-soul bound items. Which means you need to recover your corpse or pay to get your items back. All content is contested, including raids, you dont get your own special instance to play in for easy loot. So yeah I would say its a fair bit more hard core than WoW.

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by Gaxusn

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

His post wasn't even worth a response mate, probably a troll. 

Anyone that has played the two know the only similarities between the game is that they are both online and are both fantasy. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything else in-game is much different. 

Two good games, for different reasons, IMO.

I agree mate,both good games but miles apart.

PS: Would love to see FrostWyrm answer your questions, but he should run for the hills with his tail between his legs!

He wont answer,i mean what can he really say.

He should at least offer to give you his stuff lol. But seriously, your right, you win. 

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

WoW had rabid fanbois who instantly jump into defensive mode over the most innocuous comments about its content.

Or did you just not read the part where I said this is the impression I got from the starter island and that I hope the rest of the game is not like that?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Isn't vanguard a 100% pve game?

Yeah it is now, there were pvp servers but theyve been retired.

Compared to other themeparks..yes.

Compared to FFA-PVP-full loot.. no.

Originally posted by Gaxusn

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by Gaxusn

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

His post wasn't even worth a response mate, probably a troll. 

Anyone that has played the two know the only similarities between the game is that they are both online and are both fantasy. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything else in-game is much different. 

Two good games, for different reasons, IMO.

I agree mate,both good games but miles apart.

PS: Would love to see FrostWyrm answer your questions, but he should run for the hills with his tail between his legs!

He wont answer,i mean what can he really say.

He should at least offer to give you his stuff lol. But seriously, your right, you win. 

Really, if this is how the game's community is, its no wonder the game doesnt have many players.

I made it perfectly clear that I was giving my impression based on the starter island. I have NOT played the game extensively since launch, and even then I only made it to mid-levels because of the bugs the game had originally. I dont know, nor did I ever claim to know how the game has changed since then.

I meant exactly what I said when I said "I hope the rest of the game isn't like this" because I was really looking into trying Vanguard again...but you know what? If you guys are any representation of the game's remaining community, then screw that. I'll go buy Final Fantasy XI again instead.

Have fun.

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Originally posted by FrostWyrm

I played Vanguard at launch and, as a fan of EQ, I thought it was pretty entertaining, yet kind of buggy. It wasn't quite as easyI left because of the bugs and decided I'd come back another time.

I came back and it was deserted, so I left again.

I just tried the trial a few days ago, and all I can think so far of it from the starter island is that they just took WoW and made it prettier.

 

I'm really hoping this isn't what the rest of the game is like.

Really! so WOW has Diplomacy and WOW has the crafting system that Vanguard has and WOW has a vast non instanced dungeon world and WOW has open world housing where everything is made by the player,from the mortar to the bricks to the wallpaper and carpets and everythinbg else you can see.

WOW has ships that are all player made,WOW has 19 playable races and 15 classes,right?

WOW has vast Guild Houses in the open world,right?

The Isle is a trail,it does not reflect the main world of Vanguard at all,are you sure you have actually played the game before or have you just tried it for a couple of weeks and left.

WOW like Vanguards,dont make me laugh.

Or did you just not read the part where I said this is the impression I got from the starter island and that I hope the rest of the game is not like that?

But wait,i thought you said you played Vanguard at launch.The Isle was not there at the lauch so you must of played the main world,right?

So you are lying when you say you have played Vanguard,if so then you are trolling for trolling sake.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by Biskop

Your logic seems to be all upside down. [...]

Sorry, but your definition of hardcore compiles to "boring".

I dont consider it hardcore if a game bores me. I consider it boring.

You opinion is noted.

Thanks for not providing any actual arguments, that makes it easier for me answer.  :D