Originally posted by silvermember

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by silvermember

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

This whole thread misses the point of progression raiding. Better gear is only one part of the system. You clear one raid and get everyone in the group better gear so you can become good enough to face the next raid.

Raiding just for the sake of getting gear is pointless. Yes we all like having better stats, but by the time you are in full raid gear, solo content is so easy getting even stronger doesn't even show. Even doing 5 man content is easy and better gear is just considered over kill. Meaning there is no other point to it other than the next raid. Well, that and bragging rights, but in this regard, GW2 has it also.

It's clear that some people looking forward to GW2 are not and most likely never were serious raiders. You've dismissed it off like it's some kind of advanced group gear vending machine.

raid progression is about leveraging your prior success against future challenges. I just don't see how GW2 can support this.

By all accounts, Once you hit cap,  You really have no way to progress. And I am not talking about player skills, I am assuming we have mastered our class by this point.

raiding is purely about getting better gear so they can lord over those that don't have the time to keep doing repetitive task. As for skill, I guess you can argue that being able to read guides, follow basic direction and adding mods that play the game for you, can be considered in some lesser gaming circles to equate to "skill".

Hey, it's cool now everyone will have an MMO.

Those who can, raid, those who can't, play GW2.

 

I don't know who you played with but I never wasted my time "lording" over anyone. Seriosuly, how presumptious.

And yeah, some raids are tough, you have to do them a few times. Oh yeah. I suppose the comment about "skill" won't apply to the 5 man GW2 dungeons that will look more like a Benny Hill re run than a concerted effort from 5 people?

isn't that great everyone can have their own MMO which makes this thread moot, since arenanet intentionally designed gw2 to not have raids.

 

as to your other question a lot  raiders do in like to lord their gear over others. Sometimes they do it by stupidly call themselves leet and when I say stupidly is because w/o their gear they couldn't even play their way out of an open bag.

Well, at least we can agree about this thread being pointless

The gear would have to be pretty damn badass looking, but it is more about mechanics for me. Any real raider will tell you they do challenging raids for the fun. If you think a guild like Paragon in WoW gives two shits about the gear you got another thought coming.

Originally posted by Puremallace

The gear would have to be pretty damn badass looking, but it is more about mechanics for me. Any real raider will tell you they do challenging raids for the fun. If you think a guild like Paragon in WoW gives two shits about the gear you got another thought coming.

Many GW2 fans seem to think that raids exist to give better gear. It gets to a point where better gear is meaningless for anything other than raiding. It's more about gearing to raid than raiding to gear. I just think it's a classic example of Sour Grapes

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

It's clear that some people looking forward to GW2 are not and most likely never were serious raiders. You've dismissed it off like it's some kind of advanced group gear vending machine.

raid progression is about leveraging your prior success against future challenges. I just don't see how GW2 can support this.

By all accounts, Once you hit cap,  You really have no way to progress. And I am not talking about player skills, I am assuming we have mastered our class by this point.

I see where you're coming from.

However, most raiding has basically devolved into a gear vending machine. The raiding you're talking about hasn't existed since Vanilla WoW. Furthermore, the reason most people do the same raids over & over isn't because of the difficulty, it's because of the gear. Nowadays most people either don't have the time, or don't want to spend the time to do regular raiding (which in some cases can take upto 4 hours just on that 1 raid, on top of the time it takes to prepare for one / get money to support buffs / repair costs / etc. It's a pretty large investment for most players.

Again, I'd refer you to GW1. If you are seriously one of those raiders that are in it for the epic challenge, you have that. It's just not about gear. It's about prestige, cooler looking stuff, etc. It's just not instanced.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Puremallace

The gear would have to be pretty damn badass looking, but it is more about mechanics for me. Any real raider will tell you they do challenging raids for the fun. If you think a guild like Paragon in WoW gives two shits about the gear you got another thought coming.

Many GW2 fans seem to think that raids exist to give better gear. It gets to a point where better gear is meaningless for anything other than raiding. It's more about gearing to raid than raiding to gear. I just think it's a classic example of Sour Grapes

Na it is more that the worst of the worst in the raiding scene dictitating how the entire base of players that raids are seen. I know of many raiders, as well as entire guilds that raid who do it merely as a status or elitism factor, and so the gear is what matters not he challenge of the raid or the fun. Guilds like lost chapter, built to last, and such on my old server in emerald dreams were perfect examples of this that many hated raiders fr how these guilds portrayed what a raider was. The elitist players that fnd raiding, organized pvp, or such as being somethign to be used as somethgn that makes them better than other players is the issues. THere is a different between being better then others in content, and somehow saying that since you can beat the highest content you are the best, one is true the other is a falsehood that keeps them feeling better then others. 

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Puremallace

The gear would have to be pretty damn badass looking, but it is more about mechanics for me. Any real raider will tell you they do challenging raids for the fun. If you think a guild like Paragon in WoW gives two shits about the gear you got another thought coming.

Many GW2 fans seem to think that raids exist to give better gear. It gets to a point where better gear is meaningless for anything other than raiding. It's more about gearing to raid than raiding to gear. I just think it's a classic example of Sour Grapes

You're kind getting yourself into a circular argument w/ that Geezer.

Point is, this game isn't about gear. It's about lateral progression. Maybe this is a new concept to you? In which case I'd refer you to the first game, or Eve, etc. There are a few MMOs that do it, but not many.

This game does have raids, just not tradition gear-based raids. What the old raids meant to you is kinda irrelevant, given that this game doesn't revolve around gear. It has a different kind of raiding. If you think you'd be willing to give it a try, go for it. If not, there is EQ2.

I just can't be bothered to subsidize the creation of content that I don't enjoy and that is only ever experienced by a fraction of the playerbase. It's not personal, it's business! :)

No, I'm good. Don't need the mentality in the game, it never bodes well. It breeds eliticism out of necessity; people need to be really good to do those things (normally) leaving out a majority of the population because they're not good enough. 

Don't need that in GW2. Nearly every other game out there has raids, why people are so intent on shoving them in GW2 I can't fathom. "But I want to play this, now!" then play it the way it was meant to be played.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Puremallace

The gear would have to be pretty damn badass looking, but it is more about mechanics for me. Any real raider will tell you they do challenging raids for the fun. If you think a guild like Paragon in WoW gives two shits about the gear you got another thought coming.

Many GW2 fans seem to think that raids exist to give better gear. It gets to a point where better gear is meaningless for anything other than raiding. It's more about gearing to raid than raiding to gear. I just think it's a classic example of Sour Grapes

You're kind getting yourself into a circular argument w/ that Geezer.

Point is, this game isn't about gear. It's about lateral progression. Maybe this is a new concept to you? In which case I'd refer you to the first game, or Eve, etc. There are a few MMOs that do it, but not many.

This game does have raids, just not tradition gear-based raids. What the old raids meant to you is kinda irrelevant, given that this game doesn't revolve around gear. It has a different kind of raiding. If you think you'd be willing to give it a try, go for it. If not, there is EQ2.

Not circles, I know what I am saying. I haven't raided in WoW since Naxx in LK. Hated WoW since 2009. Currently raiding in Rift where it's a lot more like TBC days. It's fun and I like it. Personally, My gear slightly below average for a radier. But I know my class, I know my fights, I do OK on DPS meters but I don't die, I hold my own, I can switch roles when needed so I've earned a spot. 

I've passed up rolls on gear so someone else in the team can get a bigger improvement than me because the drop was marginaly better than my own. Lots of people are like this in my guild. We want to take down bosses not pimp out our own toons. So we generally decide where the gear drop best fits in the group. Yes, we've been burned like that when someone up and G-Quits, but that's the name of the game.

Sorry, but it really does sound like you've had in with a bunch of immature selfish kiddies.

I feel like I'm the only person in the world who actually enjoys getting a group of people together to take down a big boss..

I dont mind the wiping, i enjoy having to refine my movement or rotations with others to try and get an encounter done, i prefer being ignorant as to what the encounter has to offer so i have to learn it from the ground up myself.

Everyone who raided just because they wanted better loot, well, i dont understand you - If thats the case you should've just quit the game.

If you raided with people who shouted at you, or made the experience unenjoyable - You raided with the wrong people.

Just my 5 cents.

It could also be a good way to make coin, or they could you know, make it fun.  It wasn't fun in WoW.  But it can be fun.  Just don't make it stupidly hard (or have difficulty levels).  The rewards could be titles/achievements/trophies for harder difficulties.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I've passed up rolls on gear so someone else in the team can get a bigger improvement than me because the drop was marginaly better than my own. Lots of people are like this in my guild. We want to take down bosses not pimp out our own toons. So we generally decide where the gear drop best fits in the group. Yes, we've been burned like that when someone up and G-Quits, but that's the name of the game.

Sorry, but it really does sound like you've had in with a bunch of immature selfish kiddies.

I think your missunderstanding me tbh.

I've raided in RIFT, it was fun for a time. What you're describing has more to do w/ the people you are playing w/ than the mechanic itself. And that is the problem. This thread is about the mechanic, not who you choose to play with.

- I would agree with you on that aspect though. Raiding is a lot more fun when playing w/ a good group of people. However raiding as a game mechanic doesn't create groups like that.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I've passed up rolls on gear so someone else in the team can get a bigger improvement than me because the drop was marginaly better than my own. Lots of people are like this in my guild. We want to take down bosses not pimp out our own toons. So we generally decide where the gear drop best fits in the group. Yes, we've been burned like that when someone up and G-Quits, but that's the name of the game.

Sorry, but it really does sound like you've had in with a bunch of immature selfish kiddies.

I think your missunderstanding me tbh.

I've raided in RIFT, it was fun for a time. What you're describing has more to do w/ the people you are playing w/ than the mechanic itself. And that is the problem. This thread is about the mechanic, not who you choose to play with.

- I would agree with you on that aspect though. Raiding is a lot more fun when playing w/ a good group of people. However raiding as a game mechanic doesn't create groups like that.

Yet the fact is one of the biggest gripes about raiding would not be in the game, which is stat gear since most of the gear you have is going to be vanity gear or largely will be equal across the board with other content in the game. So then it would be people lording over their vanity gear, the titles, and such they get from raiding with a large group of friends in hard content. Yet is that not what such rewards are about truly to disinguish those that have or have not done the content as a way of rewarding them for taking up that challenge in doing the content. Anythign will get boring with time weither you enjoy it or not, if it has rewards or not, it is more a matter of if it is your cup of tea playstylewise or not in how long before it happens. All challenging content wil breed elitism in games weither it is raiding, small group pve, or pvp based content all competitive contnet breeds this in players to some degree. Raiding done in the methods of gw2 would have many of the aspects that make it about gear, and elitism taken out merely by the token of largely all content giving largely the same gear (people that get down to items giving you this or that much more percentile higher will never stop that in any game with stat gear.). No one has asked for a grear grind raiding expeirnce, but for a raiding expeirnce that would fallow the gw2 playstyle group machanics, and give those that seek it a place that is workable.

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Asuran24

Oh yeah i would support raiding content that has just cosmetic rewards, since than in my option the content's actually diffiuclty would be more of a draw to do the content, and maybe even making the raiding content more about lore or other such thigns in the game compared to being abotu gear solely. Now would hardcore raiders want this is a better question, as you do have those that seek to use it as a badge of honor, but then you have those that like challenging pve content that need alot more players to actually do (it is the challenge not the gear that makes them play this content.). It is like those pvpers that use the fact that playing against an actual player over a AI is going to be more fun, when it is a matter of what each player seeks in their playing over what you play agianst that determines how fun it is, and so we get the carebear (pvers) and hardcore (pvers) labels that try to say one style of play is better than another. To me I prefer to have similar rewards for content i do weither that is pve or pvp content, but i want the real difference being how diffiulty the content is from each other, or what gain from it thru playing thru it (such as lore, conclusions to events that I have been playing thru, or additional playstyles.). To me when i play pve content i see the quests as being the prologue as well as first few chapters of a book/story, the small group content such as group quests or instances as being the middle of the story when some things are explain yet more is revealed, and then the raiding content is the actual conclusion of the book showing how all of the previous content being connected even some you never thought it was.

The challenge might be the reason some raiders will do it the first or second time, but I guarantee you,  loot is the reason why they go at it like hamsters on a wheel.  Exclusivity and social status go hand in hand with the loot rewards.

Is that a bad thigns to reward players with loot, lore, and more info for playing thru content in the game? Gear will always play into the desire to play raids, dungeons, or other content, but the fun or challenge is what makes you want to play it. You also have many raiders that will go back thru pror content that is completely outdated for lore, as well as loot that they want (most that go for loot are collectors not looking for better gear.). Looking at pvping players revel in being the best pvper, getting titles, even fighting against other players of equal skill to them, but the gear you can get gives an added incentive to keep it feeling worthwhile to do longer than otherwise might be. It is the same with dungeons in games you might be quests, and content in the game the first time thru for the fun as well as challenge, but it is the rewards you gain or can gain that makes it worthwhile to play thru it more. Now if they made the raiding like a version of DE's in that the encounters can actually change, scale, and such things the players would need less of a incentive to replay content. Yet you also do not need the loot to give the players in any cotent any kind of advantage, but merely show they have played thru this or that, and give them a feeling of acomplishment when they finsih content. Getting unique vanity gear in raids, pvp, and open world activities is not a bad idea to give distinition to players for achiving things in their chosen playstyle, i know many players that could careless hwo good or bad a item is if it looks amazing or in a style they like.

It's a very bad thing when it's exclusive to one play style.  If a game is going to include multiple play styles, then it need to offer not only multiple types of content, but equitable rewards for their efforts.  Too many developers may offer the variety in content, but then they compare the difficulty rather than making it relative to the play style in determining rewards, let alone the usualy disparity in the quality of said content compared to what raiders get.  How many games out there wrap up gear / AA or high level crafting progression into the raiding game while offering nothing in comparison to other play styles?  Virtually all of them do at this point.  I find it very disturbing that a niche audience that is addicted to niche game play has and is currently dominating the genre.

Originally posted by Bunks

Why does it have to be gear rewards? You already have a karma system, with that you can just get nice karma rewards for participating. What about rewards like Glowing Aura's that last a few days that give bonuses to you and to whoever stands near you in fights.

 

Heck, if Anet were smart. They could make a raid like version of their WvWvW. A world littered with castles of various sizes, that have bosses defending them inside. Your team has to seige, kill the boss, then kill the main boss in the keep. So your team actually needs to just meet outside that castle to begin.

Or a race to take the Keep :

The winner of downing a boss is more of a race between teams of 10-20-30 people, whatever size. The team that fights it way to the final boss get the first chance to down it. If they kill it, they get a week or two of those server bonuses that are given to the WvW winners. Maybe even a skin based on server current ranking at team raids. Call it Castle Seige Raids or whatever. Let it be a set schedule once or twice a week. You could have a small, medium, and hardcore level castle seige system.

 

Just day dreaming here, but I don't think Anet is done with adding new things to the game. I still feel once they get past all these new ideas settling in and becoming old hat, they will start adding new concepts for people who like different styles of play.

I agree.  They did that with GW: Factions and Nightfall.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

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Originally posted by Zylaxx

 

Raids are nothing more then a glorified epeen contest and do nothing to foster community. 

In fact the elitist attitudes that raiding brings to an MMO do everything to segment communities and are a devisive wedge that kills comraderie. 

Open world raiding such as the Elder Dragons in GW2 are the best source for fostering a massively cooperative environment.

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You've never successfully raided have you? It takes effort to get 20 people to work in concert together to accomplish a single goal. I detect more elitism coming from this post than I ever did out of my raid guild.

 

anyone who has played Rift for any amount of time will tell you that dynamic Open World Raids, while very fun, are nothing more than large scale zerg fests and do nothing, and I mean NOTHING to foster any type of massive cooperation.

Every sentence in your post is nothing but opinionated, unfounded utter garbage. The fact that you can't raid doesn't mean there is something wrong with the raiding system or with those who do it. I am sorry to be so blunt, but this is just wrong.

I raided ful ltime for 2 and half years starting during the middle of BC and ending in WotLK.  My guild was ranked at the time 3rd on our server for progression, so yes I have raided.

The intent of my post was not deny that there takes alot of effort in getting 20 or 25 people together to form a cohesive unit in riading but jsut the exact opposite.  I seen with my very own eyes, the elitist attitudes that raid leaders required of their guilds.  The energy it took to keep a raiding guild continuing forward in progression and it opened my eyes to the fact that this single endeavor in MMO's is the biggest detriment to creating and fostering an unified community.  From the gear score fiasco to the denying raid slots because they messed up and caused a wipe the previous night.  The elitist mentality that raiding fosters is not the type of mentality I want in any future MMO I play in and as such I will endeavor to stop this abuse of power to the fullest.

if people want to why not

Nothing wrong with having multiple group content in instances. They can even use the current dungeon and add 2 raid modes 10 and 20 people with different mobs inside.  As long as the game mechanics dont force anyone to do them.

But how about open world (dungeon)raids with 100+ people like i remember from EQ and DAoC, nothing instanced but just plain old zerging.

Anyhow i can see GW2 getting lots and lots of different content after release as long as groups of people like it and the game does not force people that dislike it to play it, i think its allright.

As long as it is not required to stay comeptitive in any way then it would be fine, because after 7 years of raiding I never want to do it again let alone be forced to.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

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Originally posted by Zylaxx

 

Raids are nothing more then a glorified epeen contest and do nothing to foster community. 

In fact the elitist attitudes that raiding brings to an MMO do everything to segment communities and are a devisive wedge that kills comraderie. 

Open world raiding such as the Elder Dragons in GW2 are the best source for fostering a massively cooperative environment.

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You've never successfully raided have you? It takes effort to get 20 people to work in concert together to accomplish a single goal. I detect more elitism coming from this post than I ever did out of my raid guild.

 

anyone who has played Rift for any amount of time will tell you that dynamic Open World Raids, while very fun, are nothing more than large scale zerg fests and do nothing, and I mean NOTHING to foster any type of massive cooperation.

Every sentence in your post is nothing but opinionated, unfounded utter garbage. The fact that you can't raid doesn't mean there is something wrong with the raiding system or with those who do it. I am sorry to be so blunt, but this is just wrong.

I raided ful ltime for 2 and half years starting during the middle of BC and ending in WotLK.  My guild was ranked at the time 3rd on our server for progression, so yes I have raided.

 

The intent of my post was not deny that there takes alot of effort in getting 20 or 25 people together to form a cohesive unit in riading but jsut the exact opposite.  I seen with my very own eyes, the elitist attitudes that raid leaders required of their guilds.  The energy it took to keep a raiding guild continuing forward in progression and it opened my eyes to the fact that this single endeavor in MMO's is the biggest detriment to creating and fostering an unified community.  From the gear score fiasco to the denying raid slots because they messed up and caused a wipe the previous night.  The elitist mentality that raiding fosters is not the type of mentality I want in any future MMO I play in and as such I will endeavor to stop this abuse of power to the fullest.

I am sorry you were in a bad guild. But I cannot agree with you. It was not the game that fostered that mentality but rather your leaders. I hate to say it, but that mentality will find itself in this game as well. You have to know when you are following the right people or not.

I have had plenty of issues with some guild leaders, Ive been through splits, disbands, atrition, guilds that didn't survive expansions, you name it.

When the leaders are bad, the guild is bad. And I can relate to you.. I can. I recall vividly a guild leader using a raid lock for his personal use on day 3 bringing in non guild members and intentionally excluding people from days 1&2  to ensure he'd clear the instance. Also my last day in that guild. I've had issues with leaders taking the raids to seriously. Getting mad at too many wipes. But it's people not the game.

If you go blaming the game's mechanics for turning guilds into groups of @$$hats, then I am afraid GW2 is going to seriously disappoint you.