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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The "Kill 10 (x)" Conundrum

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53 posts found
  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 427

4/11/12 12:56:04 PM#21

I don't think it's an attention or generation thing, but perhaps I'm just an exception. As I get older, and more responsibilities are heading my way, I have less time to spend on stuff. The idea of having to manage my role in a seperate society is exhausting to me, and the idea that I should have to grind out 100 hours of crap content just to see a number next to my name slowly grow is ridiculous.

I think the reason these quests are so prevalent is because of the player base. We have a very large number of very avid players (those who subscribe the longest), who actually don't care if the content is good or not. As Lok said, it's seen as a means to an end, so what does it matter? To expasperate the issue (and me), players expect this sub-par content to last a long, long, long time because they feel a sense of progression.

So what is the driving force behind this? Abnegation. For those that want more information on this there is an excellent PATV Extra Credits video that talks about it in the Western vs. JRPG series. Basically, the players who determine how the genre evolves are those who put the most time into it (and sub the longest). Those who put the most time into the genre are going to have the thickest skin to things like weak content, and repeatable stuff, and get the strongest sense of enjoyment out of seeing their characters progress. This is abnegation: being able to do something mindlessly and relaxingly, and feel that you've accomplished something. It's completely valid, and I have a strong sense and need for it as well. However, the AAA games in this genre have to cater so hard to those who look solely for abnegation that their games have falter in many other ways: case and point: SW:ToR, which despite focusing so hard on trying to make the content palatable for players have ended with a bunch of KTX quests with VO. These become more common the furhter you get into the game.

There are other things to. KTX quests are usually incredibly jarring ot the narrative because you're supposed to be killing stuff for a reason, such as destroying the masses of undead that have risen from the graveyard. But when you're done, there are still masses of undead in the graveyard. So obviously you didn't actually accomplish anything. But the quest giver says you saved the village, or whatever. So you're like "LoL, okay whatever man, give me my sword."

I'm glad there are games coming soon which seem to be catering to other groups than societists and progressionists, because there's room for more than what's here.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4752

4/11/12 1:17:23 PM#22
Originally posted by Mors.Magne

One or two of the kill 10 x quests were quite good in WoW...

Those were the ones in Duskwood - they had extremely sinister stories (a school master's obsession with a schoolgirl, which turns him into the undead - it's a very macarbre story, and nothing else is like it in WoW).

However, the vast majority of kill 10 x quests are boring because there is no compelling story - you're not interested in what happens - you just want the reward - so it's just like a job.

Step 1. Download and install Quest Helper.

step 2. Set quest settings for instant scrolling.

Step 3. Clcik through NPC quest dialog without reading and just accept the quest.

Step 4. Follow arrows on minimap until you are in the highlighted circle.

Step 5. Mouseover random mobs until tooltips display 0/10

Step6. kill mobs until all tool tips related to quest(s) say 10/10

Step 7. Run back to NPC with "?" over it.

Step 8. Profit, rinse and repeat until level cap. This is because one thing Death Knights showed us is that absolutely everything about WoW prior to endgame is completely irrelevant.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  dancingstar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/11
Posts: 285

4/11/12 1:27:42 PM#23
Originally posted by Sythion

There are other things to. KTX quests are usually incredibly jarring ot the narrative because you're supposed to be killing stuff for a reason, such as destroying the masses of undead that have risen from the graveyard. But when you're done, there are still masses of undead in the graveyard. So obviously you didn't actually accomplish anything. But the quest giver says you saved the village, or whatever. So you're like "LoL, okay whatever man, give me my sword."

This is part of the intrinsic absurdity of the MMORPG form generally (saving perhaps pure sandbox games). Say for example in a single-player or co-op computer RPG, or a small group table-top game, a gang of bandits are attacking merchants travelling to and from a frontier town. The PC(s) ride out, attack the camp, kill or drive off the bandits, recover stolen goods &c., and trade returns to normal. Or they ignore it, or fail, the bandits become more entrenched, maybe bolder, and start attacking the town. Whatever happens, actions have consequences in the world.

In a typical themepark quest-driven MMO like LOTRO or Aion you would instead get a scenario like you described with the undead. At the end of the quest chain you might get congratulated for dealing with the bandit menace threatening Bree-land or wherever, but there are still exactly as many bandits milling around as when you first went to their camp. Even the Dynamic Events system from GW2 which was in large part motivated by the realisation of these absurdities cannot completely avoid them since there is a finite number of pre-scripted events, and no MMO company could afford a big enough dev team to write, implement, polish and test such content as fast as the player-base could burn through it. Also, having a MMO where once the first party / raid group defeats the Big Bad, the Big bad stays defeated would be commercial suicide.

Apologies if this turned out as an unreadable wall of text, the post editor is broken for me too.

  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 427

4/11/12 1:31:29 PM#24
Originally posted by dancingstar

Even the Dynamic Events system from GW2 which was in large part motivated by the realisation of these absurdities cannot completely avoid them since there is a finite number of pre-scripted events, and no MMO company could afford a big enough dev team to write, implement, polish and test such content as fast as the player-base could burn through it. Also, having a MMO where once the first party / raid group defeats the Big Bad, the Big bad stays defeated would be commercial suicide.

Apologies if this turned out as an unreadable wall of text, the post editor is broken for me too.

More readable than mine.

That's why I like the idea of player created content, and, or, procedurally (non-scripted) generated quests.

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1066

4/11/12 1:38:33 PM#25

Quest should be rare and unique. We do not need 100 quest per level. Too much is a bad thing, imo.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4752

4/11/12 1:41:51 PM#26
Originally posted by Golelorn

Quest should be rare and unique. We do not need 100 quest per level. Too much is a bad thing, imo.

 

er·rand

  [er-uhnd] 
noun
1.
a short and quick trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as tobuy something, deliver a package, or convey a message,often for someone else.
2.
the purpose of such a trip: He finished his errands.
3.
a special mission or function entrusted to a messenger;commission.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2539

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

4/11/12 1:44:08 PM#27

NPC random response #A: "That's an interesting object you've found there, perhaps you might check with B, they might know more about it."

NPC random response #B: "Ahh yes, I've seen one of those before many years ago, those are used in X to create Y. I heard C talking about those the other day maybe he/she would know more about it."

NPC random response #C: "Wow, where did you find X? Those are a rare find indeed and used to create X and other items. I've not seen one of those in quite some time, would you like to trade for X Y or Z? I can also make G if you get X Y and Z. I've heard that these might be spotted in the X region, perhaps you might look there."

Is this so difficult to program? Random items used to create random other items? Instead of the same old boring system? Random stats, random similar ingredients with random similar results?

Where has developer creativity gone? Oh that's right, money comes first.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 427

4/11/12 1:46:18 PM#28
Originally posted by Zekiah

NPC random response #A: "That's an interesting object you've found there, perhaps you might check with B, they might know more about it."

NPC random response #B: "Ahh yes, I've seen one of those before many years ago, those are used in X to create Y. I heard C talking about those the other day maybe he/she would know more about it."

NPC random response #C: "Wow, where did you find X? Those are a rare find indeed and used to create X and other items. I've not seen one of those in quite some time, would you like to trade for X Y or Z? I can also make G if you get X Y and Z. I've heard that these might be spotted in the X region, perhaps you might look there."

Is this so difficult to program? Random items used to create random other items? Instead of the same old boring system? Random stats, random similar ingredients with random similar results?

Where has developer creativity gone? Oh that's right, money comes first.

Exactly.

And the rabbit hole can go much, much deeper.

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1066

4/11/12 1:49:31 PM#29
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Golelorn

Quest should be rare and unique. We do not need 100 quest per level. Too much is a bad thing, imo.

 

er·rand

  [er-uhnd] 
noun
1.
a short and quick trip to accomplish a specific purpose, as tobuy something, deliver a package, or convey a message,often for someone else.
2.
the purpose of such a trip: He finished his errands.
3.
a special mission or function entrusted to a messenger;commission.

Yea, pretty much. We are just errand boys.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17212

4/11/12 1:50:36 PM#30
Originally posted by Golelorn

Quest should be rare and unique. We do not need 100 quest per level. Too much is a bad thing, imo.

 

I absolutely agree.
  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2539

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

4/11/12 1:51:01 PM#31
Originally posted by Sythion
Originally posted by Zekiah

NPC random response #A: "That's an interesting object you've found there, perhaps you might check with B, they might know more about it."

NPC random response #B: "Ahh yes, I've seen one of those before many years ago, those are used in X to create Y. I heard C talking about those the other day maybe he/she would know more about it."

NPC random response #C: "Wow, where did you find X? Those are a rare find indeed and used to create X and other items. I've not seen one of those in quite some time, would you like to trade for X Y or Z? I can also make G if you get X Y and Z. I've heard that these might be spotted in the X region, perhaps you might look there."

Is this so difficult to program? Random items used to create random other items? Instead of the same old boring system? Random stats, random similar ingredients with random similar results?

Where has developer creativity gone? Oh that's right, money comes first.

Exactly.

And the rabbit hole can go much, much deeper.

To some mighty cool places I might add. 

What happened to possibility? What happened to dreaming up ideas? What happened to the MMO future that should have been?

I feel ripped off and I know I'm not alone.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

4/11/12 1:54:28 PM#32

I think a combination of puzzle quests with traps and monsters would be the best way.  The puzzle portion would need an element of randomness so that dumb people can't just go online and figure it out.  Solving the puzzle should lead to an area with some traps and monster ambushes, and then some nice treasure.  The kill 10 x thing is hardly a conundrum, it is simple laziness.

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2539

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

4/11/12 1:57:03 PM#33
Originally posted by BigHatLogan

I think a combination of puzzle quests with traps and monsters would be the best way.  The puzzle portion would need an element of randomness so that dumb people can't just go online and figure it out.  Solving the puzzle should lead to an area with some traps and monster ambushes, and then some nice treasure.  The kill 10 x thing is hardly a conundrum, it is simple laziness.

Exactly. The goal should be to create those type of quests where you can't go find the answer on Wiki. Random is where it's at...if you're designing for beyond box sales anyway.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

4/11/12 3:01:59 PM#34

What about no quests at all, just villagers or whatever complaining about certain monsters.  You go out and kill said monsters and the more/faster you kill them, the more bonus xp you get at each kill.  The more bonus points you rack up is also correlated to item drop rates, so after killing for 15mins you could have a few nice pieces of armor as well. 

 

Once you have proven yourself to the villagers, the real quest begins, involving the kill of the evil bandit lord/whatever riding around the outer feild of the village...  Killing him unlocks a larger overworld quest. 

 

PS: make sure you know to also kill the rare monsters that spawn in the corners/caves, as they are haunting some little kid's dreams...

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4752

4/11/12 4:03:03 PM#35
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Golelorn

Quest should be rare and unique. We do not need 100 quest per level. Too much is a bad thing, imo.

 

I absolutely agree.

Anarchy Online's Quests were good like this. You had only a handfull of quests. And usually one big story line for the zone. The story was made up of many smaller objectives, but it fed into the overall larger quest that culminated in something worthwhile in the end.

Well, maybe except for Sheol, but that was one big example of what might have been.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

4/12/12 12:59:20 PM#36

There is no difference between a big quest with many sub-parts, and many quests that form a quest chain.

You just call them with different names. Still it is a series of objectives that form a bigger story line, which is the norm in many MMOs anyway.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/12/12 4:39:08 PM#37

To bad instead you couldn't simply replace the generic quest system altogether with some type of dynamically occurring event system that was always going on whether or not people were there to participate.

 

It tells a lot when the OP, in his quest for something new (sorry 'bout that) still has the "Get quest from NPC, do quest, go back to NPC for reward" mentality. It doesn't have to even be that way, and soon it won't.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  tupodawg999

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 582

4/12/12 5:39:32 PM#38

I don't think KTX quests are the core problem. I think if all you're doing is levelling then no matter how hard you try it's going to feel like a grind eventually. What these games need are distractions from levelling so players take breaks from it e.g. crafting, housing, social, subgames etc, which effect your character but not in a levelling way e.g. raising faction, providing buffs etc.

 

So you do a few KTX quests for levelling

- stop to bake some pies for the halfling daily faction raising

- do some more levelling grind

- sell the loot for improvements to your house that gives you a house buff or rested exp

- grind a bit more

- get a message that players are needed at the guild base to weed a field that provides one of the components for a guild buff

- grind a bit more

- head off to the wood elf town where you have a daily shot at a 3D platformer subgame where you have to complete a kind of tree-jumping obstacle course for a personal high score

- grind a bit more

etc

 

The best way to improve the levelling experience for those players not in a hurry to get to max level is to provide entertaining distractions so the players break levelling into chunks.

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/14/12 7:40:49 PM#39

get rid of standard type quests entirely.

 

make the "questing" not need a bunch of clicking/scrolling in dialog boxes, get rid of those almost entirely.

 

and make the "quests" be like "adventure game" puzzles.

 

 

if you want them to kill x many mobs, then put that many mobs around the items they need to collect, or the gateway to the next area or whatever.  

 

The End
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i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3696

4/14/12 8:35:30 PM#40
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Anarchy Online's Quests were good like this. You had only a handfull of quests. And usually one big story line for the zone. The story was made up of many smaller objectives, but it fed into the overall larger quest that culminated in something worthwhile in the end.

Well, maybe except for Sheol, but that was one big example of what might have been.

The problem was, unless you were out killing mobs in Shadowlands over and over and over and over and over, you had to keep going to hit the mission terminals in Rubi-ka and we all know, it was just the same 4 mission types over and over and over and over and over.  Most of us leveled up by grabbing a ton of missions, killing everything, repeat ad nauseum.  That's not a handful of quests, it's a crapload, I used to run 30-40 quests a day, every day, just to level.

It gets old really quick.

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