Originally posted by BadSpock
 

I'll leave this thread with a question - Whose information/opinion would you trust more?

Random internet web forum poster?

Or game developer / professional press writer?

 

The answer is simple: the truth is somewhere in the middle

Developers have been known to stretch the truth by great lengths. If you take what they say as the holy grail truth. your a fool. I learned this a long time ago, and there all the same. They are no different than a politician.

Professional writer: Years ago I would agree with this on, I use to only listen to those. But now thats changed. These guys also have an agenda now. Press writters that will tell you how it really is would never get a beta invite. These articles have become nothing but a brown noising cluster F$%@. Look no further back than SWTOR pre launch, the very author of this thread was one of the worst. I still remember the one" Innovations in swtor", I think i literally got sick reading it. The points were blantantly not innovations and even the author admitted it, over and over again.  When I got done reading it I was surprised that she didnt think a character creator was innovative.

Originally posted by toddze

Combat needs structure period. the rock paper scissor aproach is the ultimate rule. Pick a class and if you know how to play you will be good. The best example of this is FPS games. A sniper rifel has an advantage over a machine gun at long distance, the machine gun has the advatange ove a sniper rifle at close distances. WHen you try to make everything equal, all you accomplish is make a watered down mess, all the while taking all the player skills out. 

GW2 is just going to be a watered down, no skill, button mashing hack and slash type combat.

The holy trinity has gotten a bad name due to all these pathetic themparks that abuse it. The old days of the MMO's had it perfect.

 

Specialization does not equal the Trinity. The Trinity is a VERY SPECIFIC implimentation of specialization. One that's rather hackneyed, over-simplified and done to death.... and quite frankly while servicible doesn't even really fit Fantasy RPG combat all that well.

Go play something like WWII Online (very similar to an FPS game like the Battlefield series)....  Lots of specialization....no Trinity.

Specialization.... good.

P.S. Machine Guns are actualy very good at long range....take a look at the origions of the Barret 50 Cal sniper rifle for example...or how Carlos Hathcock used M2HB's in Vietnam. I think what you mean to say was SMG's.

Trinity ...... not so much.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by BadSpock
 

I'll leave this thread with a question - Whose information/opinion would you trust more?

Random internet web forum poster?

Or game developer / professional press writer?

 

The answer is simple: the truth is somewhere in the middle

Developers have been known to stretch the truth by great lengths.

Appeal to Authority does't work well for 'winning' forum arguments anyway.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by BadSpock

"I guess we'll see once we get our hands on the game, won't we?"

Well, first must deal with six months of very bad play, group arguments, and verbal posing.

"I R mad skillz U R scrubz lolz go back to WoW nubcakez."

But that's pretty standard in any new game.  Worse in any game that tries to sell itself as 'skill based', though.

"Skill Based" 

LOL

This won't stop people from posting that you can stand in one spot and spam skills, at least not til after release.  Some solo mobs can be fought that way in any game, but it's hardly the meat of the system.  It'll get you killed.

Originally posted by Redemp

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

 

Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that if the person that youve dedicated to heal you dies your entire team wipes???

 

Nope, sorry it doesnt have to happen in Guild Wars 2, other people can be responsible for healing themselves so you dont have to have a dedicated healer and it doesnt have a massive benefit like in TRINITY BASED GAMES.

 

Sorry im not going to sugar coat this like other people, but your Wrong. I just proved it, now try and understand the logic behind it.

 So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.

Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role  or a Tanker role.

You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.

 You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".

* Edited for the : I just proved it  .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that. Also for completely ignoring the question .... about a healer and tanker role being benificial.

 

Dude if you think 1 player (healer) can keep one guy tanking in pvp or DEs alive in this game than you likely have not played it...

This is not wow where the tank stands in while the rogue stunlocks while the priest fears and heals at will, GW2 will require all players to actually move, dodge use their heals and skills for the good of all and run out of combat while others take on the tank role...

Players that want to stand in against any main mob boss with only their trusty dedicated non combat healer buddy behind them will die a lot...

And look like an unskilled newbie...;)

Originally posted by Redemp

 Really?

REALLY?

Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?

 

 For those who are burying their heads in the sand....  THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system to some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars), Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.

 

For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.

 

-- Yes I have pre-purchased ,  Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.

 

 

Sorry dude, no single target heals in GW2, just ground targetted AoE heals (including regen) which aren't as powerful as self heals so maybe YOU have got it wrong.

Alright, presuming the game plays the way Anet says it will, and thus far all video evidence I've seen seems to support it...

There will be 5 heals in every party. There will be 5 dps in every party. There will be 5 controllers in every party. There will be 5 tanks in every party.

There will be five people in every party. And they will fill ALL roles.

Your role as a member in a GW2 Party is:

1) Provide sufficient damage to kill all enemies in the most efficient way possible

2) Stay alive using a combination of movement, delf heals, and defensive skills.

3) Use debuffs/lockdowns to reduce all incoming enemy damage in any worthwhile way you can

4) Provide any healing to other members when needed

5) Attract enemy attention to draw off from a wounded team mate

6) Revive fallen team members

And the most important one of all:

7) Think of the fly, adapt to the changing battlefield, and know when to apply the first 6. Then DO IT.

I've seen multiple videos where some moron with a shield gets 2-shot because he thinks he's supposed to stand there and get beat on. Health pools, armor mitigation, and incoming heals are not strong enough to support theindustry standard design of "Tank gets beat down, heals spam him to keep him alive, DPS just eneds to stay out of fire and spam optimal rotations". Everyone will have to take an active part in the survival of the team.

Frankly, one of my closet fears is that if it REALLY works that way, it will be too alien and harsh for too many people, and Anet won't have a sustainable playerbase.

One of my other worries is that it either WON'T work that way, or that they will cave in and change it to appease players.

In the end it needs to be fun.

I have serious concerns that it will be too tedious or make me worry about things I prefer to avoid in trinity games.  Hopefully they'll provide an open beta or trial period, because I have major concerns about the game.

Originally posted by terrant

Your role as a member in a GW2 Party is:

1) Provide sufficient damage to kill all enemies in the most efficient way possible

2) Stay alive using a combination of movement, delf heals, and defensive skills.

3) Use debuffs/lockdowns to reduce all incoming enemy damage in any worthwhile way you can

4) Provide any healing to other members when needed

5) Attract enemy attention to draw off from a wounded team mate

6) Revive fallen team members

And the most important one of all:

7) Think of the fly, adapt to the changing battlefield, and know when to apply the first 6. Then DO IT.

That's not really a selling point to me at this point.  I think that playstyle may limit their playerbase.  There's a fine line between challenging gameplay and gamplay that feels like work.

Bless the arrogance of ArenaNet's fans.  In 2011 the maker of Angry Birds who sold 20M copies of his game stated that consoles are dead and casual games on iPhones was the future.  As it turned out console gaming was fine.

ArenaNet came out and made the claim that they were making a game without the holy trinity.  The presumption here was that all other MMOs use this holy trinity... as a matter of fact very few do.

Class roles in most MMOs include tank, healer, DPS, controller, and support.

The tank's job is to soak damage.

The healer's job is to heal damage.

The DPS' job is to do the vast majority of damage.

The controller's job is to juggle enemies.

The support's job is to proviide group buffs.

I'd say every MMO has classes that fit this distinction.  The "holy trinity" world view is something that ANet has come up with to try and make other MMOs look simple and make their's look complicated.

Just because the WoW matchmaker states "Healer/Tank/DPS" doesn't mean that is howy ou match people up.  You need controllers to clear out trash and do certain bosses when you have ads rushes.  You will need specific group buffs so you will bring people just for the buffs they provide.

Even when you look at the role of a player in a specific battle it's not entirely limited to just their class.  Blizzard might make a boss that will require healers to DPS with their DPS spells.  There might be a boss that requires a cloth wearing warlock to tank.  There might be a boss that requires a melee warrior to control via kiting.

There are tones of MMOs out there challenging what ArenaNet calls "the holy trinity" by making people do different roles.

By eliminating the holy trinity and making everyone act like every role they actually further ferment the people getting carried.  In something like WoW people say DPS might get carried by tanks and healers.  The reason for this is because players with more time and more 'skills' are attracted to being tanks and healers.

If you have six REALLY good players and four REALLY bad players those four REALLY bad players are still going to get carried.  It's just like Borderlands.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by terrant

Your role as a member in a GW2 Party is:

1) Provide sufficient damage to kill all enemies in the most efficient way possible

2) Stay alive using a combination of movement, delf heals, and defensive skills.

3) Use debuffs/lockdowns to reduce all incoming enemy damage in any worthwhile way you can

4) Provide any healing to other members when needed

5) Attract enemy attention to draw off from a wounded team mate

6) Revive fallen team members

And the most important one of all:

7) Think of the fly, adapt to the changing battlefield, and know when to apply the first 6. Then DO IT.

That's not really a selling point to me at this point.  I think that playstyle may limit their playerbase.  There's a fine line between challenging gameplay and gamplay that feels like work.

And that's fine. It's not for everyone. I'm just tired of 

Tank stands in the designated spot, spams aggro abilities, rotates defensive abilities

Healer spams heals on tank, tops off otehrs where needed

DPS spams best DPS rotation

Occasionally people have to stay out of fire.

I was a dynamic, fast changing battlefield where EVERYONE is required to pay attention and think in combat.

To Troublmaker: You're right to a point. And yes Anet's claims of killing the trinity are hype. Even GW2 has those three roles. It's just that people will be required (hopefully) to do more than their niche on every fight. WoW's 5 man and raid combat, after years of it, bore the hell out of me. I want something that rewards thinking.

And yes there's the possibility of stupid carries. I'll grladly vote to kick them every time, if I can help it. Or find a solid group and stick with them.

To Troublmaker: You're right to a point. And yes Anet's claims of killing the trinity are hype. Even GW2 has those three roles. It's just that people will be required (hopefully) to do more than their niche on every fight. WoW's 5 man and raid combat, after years of it, bore the hell out of me. I want something that rewards thinking.

Blizzard set up a specific hard modes system to deal with this.  When doing 10-man hard modes it is totally personal responsibliity where everyone has to do their roles.  Alternatively you can do the easy modes and just stand in place and tank and spank.

I don't think MMOs can actually reward thinking.  The genre is not really setup that way.  In any game that is mass and multiplayer you have the exact same thing that happens in anything that is multi-person and massive... a wave of people doing simple things.  If things get too complicated it becomes complicated for a few people and not others.

MMOs that have tried to market on just being harder/challenging often just become known as tedious.

Having to move around consistently was what made tera so exhausting for me. Especially in dungeons. 

Sigh but to be honest if you love fantasy novels and want to play like you are in one then this is the game for it, no tanks just distraction movement evasion each boss battle could be written down as a n awesome action sequence with numerous near death experience with everyone getting in to do damage help someone and setup combo's.

Sounds refreshing, the older I get though the more difficult it may be to play this and be competitive. IT may signal my wthdrawl from the genre all together if i find my skill cap too low. 

Originally posted by troublmaker

To Troublmaker: You're right to a point. And yes Anet's claims of killing the trinity are hype. Even GW2 has those three roles. It's just that people will be required (hopefully) to do more than their niche on every fight. WoW's 5 man and raid combat, after years of it, bore the hell out of me. I want something that rewards thinking.

I don't think MMOs can actually reward thinking.  The genre is not really setup that way.  In any game that is mass and multiplayer you have the exact same thing that happens in anything that is multi-person and massive... a wave of people doing simple things.  If things get too complicated it becomes complicated for a few people and not others.

First, to the post in green:

A trinity system is a system with THREE dedicated roles. Three.

trinity [?tr?n?t?]n pl -ties

2. the state of being threefold

It's already been shown that not only are there more than three roles. (you only have to scroll up to see the most recent example of this), but the 'holy trinity' (tank, dps, healer) has been proven MULTIPLE times to not exist in this game. It's not hype, it's fact, and it's asinine that we are still here 4 months later trying to debate something that's already been proven. For one, you don't have a dedicated tank in this game, it DOESN'T have aggro mechanics. Mobs / bosses pick their target through a variety of factors (not hate), and furthermore they are constantly changing who they chose to attack throughout the fight. That alone proves that the 'holy trinity' is gone. Now, you could argue that it's been replaced with a 'different trinity' as some have in the passed, however you would still be ignoring the numerous examples of how there are more than three roles.

To troublemaker:

Why don't you think MMOs can reward player thought? They do it all the time. While yes, a lot of games are getting dumbed down, people who play them more intelligently get rewarded in a number of ways (they earn gold faster, they get more rewards from pvp, they get the better gear quicker, etc.) It may not be as flashy as a giant 'level up!' sign over your head, but it's there.

I think this is where the concept of 'easy to play, difficult to master' applies best. Just look at the first GW. That game is really easy to pick up and play, however some of the harder content gets really difficult. You aren't forced to do the harder content, but if you want to beat it it requires a lot of effort and tact. The same can be said of games like Everquest, or Vanilla WoW, TERA, to name a few.

GW2 Forever !!!!

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Redemp

 Really?

REALLY?

Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?

 For those who are burying their heads in the sand....  THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system so some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars, Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.

For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.

-- Yes I have pre-purchased ,  Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.

You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.

 

From what I've seen, if you don't pay attention to dodging and self-heals, you're dead.  Support heals are not sufficient to keep you going.

Originally posted by orbitxo

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm worried that I'm going to feel the same way about GW2 as it sounds very clicky and very movement centric.  

its called skills-friend, skills.

I read the objections to other combat systems vs GW2 here, and as an AoC-player I'll chip in with an objection to your quipped 'GW2 will be skill-based'.

AoC's combat system is also skill-based. Granted, yes, there's less of the active, action-oriented stuff that GW2 seems it will have (and I look forward to trying it out, have picked up the pre-purchase!), but you still need skill playing AoC, and combat in any MMO, whether PvE or PvP - but of course, both these types and mostly the latter, are severely influenced by gear-dependency in AoC.

And I agree that although GW2 has a new take on it, the holy trinity still exists, but its boundaries have been smudged out seeing as who takes on the particular role of the trinity at different times will be changing depending on the situation (e.g. like the thief going in to 'tank' to draw attention away from the guardian, etc.)

It will be very interesting to try out - feeling excited about next beta weekend in GW2 :)

Originally posted by jbombard

 

Maybe WoW has made me cynical but I hate having to trust the success/failure of the group on others ability to play.  Hell in WoW it's bad enough and you see pleny of people who can't do one job let alone all 3 and ALSO be able to switch dynamically between them.  I have a feeling random pugs will just not be doable, at all.

 

I think that's a valid concern and one I share as well.

Look at the big mess that Cataclysm created when it was launched and people suddenly had to CC and not stand in the fire because the healer could no longer spam heal everyone forever without running out of mana. Dungeon crawls slowed to a... well... crawl. The forums were on fire with people who did not enjoy this new level of difficulty. PUGs were a mess and some people had to resort to guild runs only. The thing is, there's only so much I can do in a group. I can play my role to perfection, but if the rest of the group doesn't know how to play, it matters not. We all die. I frankly decided not to subject myself to that by quitting WoW shortly after I reached 85. I just couldn't find the motivation to crawl through dungeons and dealing with all that when I knew I could just go play something else for a while and come back a couple of patches later when things had settled down.