Originally posted by Foreverdream

It depends on the game AND computer.

 

I'm sorry but if you can play on the highest settings of any new game your set to go and have a huge advantage over some. I've seen my buddies comp actually have graphical delay and had a major impact on me playing.

I remember a long time ago a buddy of mine trying to play EQ2 on an old laptop.  Each time we changed zones there would be a break for several  minutes while his computer struggled to change zones.  We would use that time for bio's, getting snacks, smoking, etc.

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

 

I think in the minds of the people who buy a 3000 dollar machine it probably is. Whether it actually helps I don't know. Some of the mice (Mouse's?) with extra buttons probably give a little edge as well.

As for me, if I could afford a 3000 dollar gaming pc I would get it, but more for the graphics upgrade than any slight advantage.

No. 

Because I'm a believer that you can get a computer that costs 500-800 dollars and have largely the same effect. I recently traded my Sager laptop for a desktop and I get 60 FPS on both WoW and SW:TOR and if you were to build this computer yourself, it would definitely be south of $1000. So no, buying a $3000 computer would not be "paying to win".

When did we start throwing around crap terms like this? I don't care how good your computer is or what you can buy in a cash shop or on Ebay... if you suck... you still lose. Period.

Really? REALLY?!?! I can't believe this is even being discussed. It's even sadder that some people are actually saying yes to the question at hand. Bandwidth and a good computer is not paying 2 win, by any means. Good lord by that logic game developers are automatically the biggest culprits of pay 2 win. Just to clarify, you can't buy a computer through a game's cash shop, at least none that I know of. For shame on the people that can afford t3 lines or 3000 dollar computers.

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.

Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?

I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.

 

If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?

Where is the line drawn?

 

 

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.

 

TYIA

Some will say it is p2w. The argument has gotten a little out of hand because people like to change their understanding of the concept to coincide with their argument. I don't concidder anything p2w unless the game itself offers advantages that actually affect someone other than yourself in a way that gives them a clear advantage.

Example would be GW2, the pvp boosts are meaningless since gear does not matter and the extra glory will not give you a leg up on anyone. That same boost may be a problem in a game where that glory would translate into a form of currency for gear ala WoW's honor. Your gear grinding would now be faster than another who didnt spend the same amount of effort so that could be p2w.

No game will be completely even if you see the hardware as an unfair advantage though some will cry it is. Some games try to make the playing field as fair as possible and some clearly offer ways to get a leg up. I stay away from the latter. I don't have a high end rig and I will never use that as an excuse I get beat at something. You adapt with what you have and do the best with what you got. 

someone who spent 1500 instead of 700 on random retailer craptastic and overpriced pc, will always have advantage, but it wont be due fps.. its due smarts.. and no not because someone earns 2k a month and another one earns 1k..

one is addept  in IT , another is clueless casual.. its like saying can sprinter outrun, hotdog eating champion..

I have a top of the line Alienware PC and I always win.  Also, I always have flashy lights coming out of the my computer AND my computer came with a free hat! 

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.

Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?

I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.

 

If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?

Where is the line drawn?

 

 

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.

 

TYIA

What i can make up from that marked line is that you already believe it is and i have to say;

Really ? so just because someone spent more on their pc then some other dude who spent less on his, the first is now paying to win? What exactly is he winning to begin with ?Having the bigger e-peen when he shows off his pc speccs on the internet ?

Also having a better pc then another person does not make you better at gaming nor does it make you insta win games.

Not to mention 3000 is A LOT for a gaming pc, i wouldn't even come close to that in euro's when building a new pc and i would still have a pc that would last me a good 3 to 5 years while still being able to play games that come out around that time.

Originally posted by paulytheb

A gaming PC , an expensive one 1500.00 that quizzical built, would that be  an advantage over an average 700 dollar tower someone gets at a best buy type store?

A gaming computer that cost $1500 spent wisely has real advantages over a $700 Best Buy computer.  But I don't think they constitute "pay to win".

Perhaps I should back up and say, a lot depends on how you define "pay to win".  Suppose that two people have a PlayStation 3 game.  One of them has bought a PS3.  The other doesn't have one.  Does the first person have an advantage over the second person in the game in question?  Of course:  the first person can play the game and the second can't.  Does that make the game "pay to win"?

To be fair, you're not arguing for that sort of pedantic version of "pay to win".  The real question is, does the ultimate high end gaming system have offer gaming advantages over some cheap junk system that can handle the game.  Because if the cheap junk system can't handle the game, then someone who can play a game has an obvious advantage over someone who can't, at least in that particular game.  But I'd argue that that doesn't make the super high end system pay to win.

Rather, what you're saying is, does what you'd get from, say, going to Puget Systems and saying you want the best gaming computer they'll get you for $10,000 (roughly equivalent to the best you could buy yourself for $7,000) give you gameplay advantages over, say, this plus some cheap peripherals:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/iBuyPower+-+Gamer+Power+Desktop+-+8GB+Memory+-+500GB+Hard+Drive/5036197.p?id=1218601980361&skuId=5036197

Obviously the expensive computer would have advantages, but would those be real gameplay advantages?  Let's go into it one component at a time.

Is a Core i7-3960X processor an advantage over an FX-4100?  In games where the processor can't keep up with your monitor's refresh rate, yes.  Otherwise, no.  In the overwhelming majority of real games on the market, no.

Is 64 GB of system memory an advantage over 8 GB?  64 GB will let the system do more prefetching, but I doubt that you'd see any measurable gameplay benefit from it.  Is 2400 MHz system memory an advantage over 1333 MHz?  No, not at all.

Is a pair of Radeon HD 7970s in CrossFire an advantage over a single GeForce GT 520?  Sure, it will let you turn video settings way up.  That will make the game look a lot nicer.  But is it a gameplay advantage?  Not unless the GeForce GT 520 can't handle the game even on minimum settings.  So in most games, no, though it will be an advantage in a lot more games a few years down the road.

Is a 480 GB SSD together with a 3 TB hard drive an advantage over just a 500 GB hard drive?  Sure, it will make things load a lot faster.  If I can use map travel in Guild Wars in 3 seconds and you take 8 seconds to do the same thing, does that give me an advantage over you?  Sure.  Is it a big enough advantage to constitute "pay to win"?  I'd say no.

Is a full tower case with a high end liquid cooling setup for the processor and video cards that uses a huge radiator on the side of the case and runs the fans slowly an advantage over a simple air cooling setup designed to be cheap while still giving adequate airflow to prevent overheating?  Sure, it will let the system run quieter.  Does that give you a gameplay advantage?  No.

Is a Seasonic Platinum 1000 W an advantage over a cheap junk "500 W" (I'm guessing here) power supply that will explode if you try to pull 400 W from it?  Sure, and a large one:  reliability matters.  Is it a gameplay advantage?  Only on days when the cheap junk power supply crashes the system, or perhaps when it eventually releases sparks and smoke and leaves you with a burning smell and a bunch of dead hardware.

Is a Blu-Ray burner an advantage over a simple DVD burner?  Not unless you have some use for Blu-Ray.  And watching Blu-Ray movies while playing games is probably a gameplay disadvantage, not an advantage.

Is a high end motherboard with all of the bells and whistles an advantage over some cheap junk motherboard?  Not until you try to upgrade or overclock something, or the cheap junk motherboard has some component fail.

Is Windows 7 Ultimate an advantage over Windows 7 Home Premium?  Not for games it isn't.  Everything that Microsoft things you might plausibly need for gaming is included in Home Premium.  The Professional edition exists mainly to try to get businesses to pay more.  The Ultimate edition exists mainly to give suckers a way to give Microsoft extra money.

Is a $100 "gaming" mouse an advantage over the cheap junk mouse that the Best Buy computer ships you?  Possibly.  Is it an advantage over a $15 wired laser USB mouse?  Only if you need a lot of buttons on the mouse.  I haven't come across any games where a simple two button mouse with a pointer, buttons, and a scroll wheel that worked right was at a disadvantage.

Is a $100 "gaming" keyboard an advantage over the cheap junk keyboard that comes with the Best Buy computer?  Not unless you need keys for programmable macros and can't figure out how to do that in software with a cheap keyboard.

Is a $200 discrete sound card and a $300 7.1 speaker sound system an advantage over a cheap 2 speaker system with onboard sound?  Sure, the sound quality will be better.  Is it a gameplay advantage?  Not in any game I've ever played.  In first person shooters that try not to let you see what's going on, letting you hear what is going on might be an advantage.  But I wouldn't know, as I haven't tried it.

Is a $100 "gaming" network card an advantage over a simple onboard ethernet port sent through a 100 Mbps router?  In a handful of weird corner cases, yes.  Most of the time, maybe it takes 1 ms or so off of your ping time.  So yes, it's an advantage.  Is it an advantage that you might realistically notice in anything other than a synthetic benchmark?  No.

Is a $200 UPS an advantage over a $10 surge protector?  Only at times when the electric waveform that you pull from the wall does something weird.  When they both just pass the current from the wall straight through, as they likely both do 99.999%+ of the time, they function identically.  Even if you have a power outage where you lose power for days, the UPS won't keep the computer running for more than a handful of minutes.

Is an Eyefinity setup with three 30" 2560x1600 monitors and two other monitors off to the side an advantage over, say, this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009306

(It's a $120, 21.5", 1080p monitor, if you don't want to click.)  Sure, the Eyefinity setup will look gorgeous.  Is it a gameplay advantage?  Here you can actually argue that sometimes it is.  In 2D side scrolling, isometric overhead view, or first person shooters, the dramatically larger monitor resolution sometimes does provide a real gameplay advantage.  In a very large fraction of games, however, it does not.  The only game I've played that released in the last decade where the high resolution is an advantage is Spiral Knights.

And what about the monitors off to the side?  Do those give an advantage?  Sometimes it can be a great convenience.  The cheap computer with a single monitor can have a browser and spreadsheet open in the background, but you'll have to Alt+Tab out to see them.  With more monitors, you can put those on separate monitors and not have to Alt+Tab out.  That way, if you want to look at a map on a wiki, all you have to do is to turn your head to the side rather than switch back and forth between windows.  That's certainly a great convenience, and one that I highly recommend.  Is it "pay to win"?  I'd say no.

Originally posted by Krelian

Hi.

I have purchased a 3.380 dollar pc about a week ago (not including the screens, keyboard/mouse, sound system etc)

$3380 excluding peripherals?  I sure hope that's not just for gaming, or else that it's not US$.  Because otherwise, you spent way too much for no real advantage.  Now, if a good chunk of that $3380 was spent on monitors for an Eyefinity setup, then it makes more sense.

My gut reaction was to say no.  But there are definite cases where a top end machine can have a huge advantage in large scale PVP and possibly other cases.

no. it's a waste of money.

You are not paying to win with a $3000 PC. . the guy with the $500 PC is losing because of his game settings.  Pay for Pretty maybe.

A $3000 gaming PC is nothing but a waste of money. Learn to build your own.

You don't need the top end pc to see stuff in full detail. That being said you can turn down the pretty and just the vital parts and have the exact same benefit... heck you can actually have an advantage with a lower end system running lower settings due to particle effects being in the way.

Originally posted by Tirinas

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.

Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?

I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.

 

If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?

Where is the line drawn?

 

 

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.

 

TYIA

What i can make up from that marked line is that you already believe it is and i have to say;

Really ? so just because someone spent more on their pc then some other dude who spent less on his, the first is now paying to win? What exactly is he winning to begin with ?Having the bigger e-peen when he shows off his pc speccs on the internet ?

Also having a better pc then another person does not make you better at gaming nor does it make you insta win games.

Not to mention 3000 is A LOT for a gaming pc, i wouldn't even come close to that in euro's when building a new pc and i would still have a pc that would last me a good 3 to 5 years while still being able to play games that come out around that time.

As I meantioned previously, I do believe people buy the expensive machines to gain an advantage.

However, where I draw the line is when the company that is selling me the game is trying to blackmail me into spending hundreds of dollars just to be competitive. The person that buys the 3000 dallar machine isn't buying it from the same company that also sold them the game and you CAN be competitive on a less expensive machine. But in p2w games you can't be competitive unless you buy items from there shop.

Just give me a price (14.99 a month) and then get out of my way.

Nope, unless the game is poorly designed so that weak hardware is less competitive.  It's not like FPS where LPB gets a huge advantage.  For most games it's more dice rolls than twitch skill.

It depends what resolution you want to play games at...

A high end video card may allow you to render at a greater distance than someone on low settings and in some games may also allow more player characters to be displayed in a given area. Characters can also be hard to distinguish from the background on low settings. This depends on the game of course.

When we start on peripherals such as a programmable mouse and keyboard, you then have macro capability where this may not normally be possible and more buttons means faster reactions in some situations.

I would think that if we needed to establish a baseline for what is fair, we would assume we are fully rendered and lag free.