Originally posted by ElderRat

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by RefMinor
The wheel will turn.

This.

Though hopefully not in reverse.

The problem is that it isn't a wheel, it is a sphere and could go off in any direction.

With jetpack and jackhammer attachments.

Meh, back in the day when I was young on my 486 playing UO I was a one game gamer. As the years have gone by I've grown into an eclectic gamer. 

Some days I want to go to war, some days I want to simply hang out with friends and family. 

I do like games similar to you... well maybe not entirely similar I guess. I liked UO, you like DFO and MO though neither fit in with what you posted but... I also like other types of games. 

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Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Meh, back in the day when I was young on my 486 playing UO I was a one game gamer. As the years have gone by I've grown into an eclectic gamer. 
Some days I want to go to war, some days I want to simply hang out with friends and family. 
I do like games similar to you... well maybe not entirely similar I guess. I liked UO, you like DFO and MO though neither fit in with what you posted but... I also like other types of games. 

---

1; Not really, Comming from UO it is pretty nice to know that the set of plate sword and board i just created using my last ingots can't be stolen by a roving band of insane clowns that does it just for the "lulz". Thanks but no thanks.

2:Agreed but deep and fun is not the same thing.. In SWG you were pretty much forked if you did not have the respawn system down to a second as no one wanted to buy anything but the absolute best. But Project Entropia have what you are looking for in that department. To bad you are about 6 years behind the good crafters in that game

3: And general logic dictates that the less complex your graphics are the more people can play your game at a resonable level, and while games like WoW look dated atleast you can buy it due to the simplistic style.. unlike a "realistic" game that never age well. As for the "super" styled gear... It is about siluet recognition, you should be able to identify what is infront of you based on visuals... WAR had some pretty cool ideas going on with this (it was saddly scrapped) to put it simply your character would "age" as he leveld up becomming worn and hardend.

4: Kick-starter is over there and indiegogo is overthere... Just get cracking on it. After all they say that if you build they will come.

5: Well i agree to a ceartin point, but them again i now have a disposable income and i spend it the way i want... And looking at the price of a pub-nigh or a visit to the cinema... .. . *shudders* Most RMT schemes look pretty good.

6: As an old UO player again i say... thanks but no thanks... Nothing like working for houers clearing a place only to have some gank squad swipe in and WTFPwn you and kill the big bad... But i agree that it could be more done to the instance system to make it a bit more random.

7: Very few games have companions, only GW1 and DDO comes to mind (are prolly more though) and DDO relys very much on class skills and GW1 was deigned with a more casual idea in mind.

8: Huh...? Eh...? Pass them shrooms man. no MMO i played EVER gave you anything but crap scraps from the start. (Apart form Eve... but otoh i got a scrap ship instead)

So yeah... I think you are a dying breed and i think you should man up and try to make your own game.. all the tools you need are out there and with the number of "game design" schools out there closing in on 2 per gamer finding people to work for you shoudl not be that much of a problem.

Be a doer and not a don't:er

Originally posted by xDayx

I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.

 

1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.

2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.

3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.

4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.

5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.

6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)

7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.

8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.

---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)

 

Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

 

 

 

I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog  at this time.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Axehilt

There is a market for you and you deserve to have games that cater to yoru wishes, but you are not who gets to determine where this genre goes.

The end.

The cries of the disenfranchised not withstanding, the factual observation "that train left the station ten or fifteen years ago" should be sufficient explanation.

If you're still tilting at windmills, N years later, perhaps you enjoy the tilting just a little too much.

Q: What happens to teen rebels/non-conformists when they're forced to re-join society and become "the Man"?

Yep, the "Ax/Syth/Kyl/you" thread said everything that needs to be said.  Until someone waves a magic wand and makes those old features appealing to the masses, your best bet is to find the game closest to what you like, and live with it; or move on.

Anybody remember Motor City Online?  You could customize your car to insane level.  The engine itself had several parts, and each part wasn't just some "good/better/best" system; you had to know what parts complemented others.

For example:  Do you know what an Edelbrock Tunnel Ram intake manifold is?  What it does and what benefits it provides?  Neither does about 99% of the population.  In other words, MCO was almost deliberately limiting their potential subscriber base to 1% of the population.

It's really an extreme (but real) metaphor for what alot of those old games were, and why they either no longer exist or have comparably tiny player bases, today.  I loved MCO, but I have no doubts as to why it failed, and despite the build complexity being one of the things I liked best about it, I know better than to think someone will bring back a design philosophy that costs a game subs. 

I agree that there is now a definite seperation between what older online gamers grew up with and what the new to MMO kids want.  I am speaking for myself when I refer to old.  I started out in the now geriatric gaming age with M59/EQ/DAOC. I became used to the idea that spending obscene amounts of time and working hard for something created acheivements and results.

But that was the old school way. No one wants to raid for a full 24-48 hours, trading off healers so you could shower and eat a meal.  No one enjoys the sweat inducing fear of creeping along zone lines in order to avoid mob aggro and save you an hour long corpse run.

We live in a society where instant gratification is key. Save time, save money. Rush, rush rush. So why should'nt games pander to this?  This is what I see when I look at the progression from games of old to now. A streamline gaming effect where the less time it takes to get from point A to point B results in a definite increase in subscribers.  You only need to look at the rush to level 80 when Wrath of the Lich King was released.  Content be damned.

I definitely see the evolution of online gaming. But that doesn't mean I still dont believe in the possibility of a balance between old school hardcore and current day rush, rush easy mode.  I still have faith that it can happen, developers need only to dig back into our MMO roots to build a framework that can work for future content. 

Originally posted by Vocadi

I definitely see the evolution of online gaming. But that doesn't mean I still dont believe in the possibility of a balance between old school hardcore and current day rush, rush easy mode.  I still have faith that it can happen, developers need only to dig back into our MMO roots to build a framework that can work for future content. 

Fair enough, but developers also need to look at the past with a discerning eye. There might be some game design gems in the rough, but there was a lot of... well... rough. For instance, I strongly disagree that taking more time to get from A to B is a good design choice unless there's actually an adventerous journey to be had there.

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog  at this time.

Yeah, me too.

But I still come here out of hope. :)

It's kind of interesting how this market has gone over the years.  Sure, I'm willing to admit that I'm no longer the target audience.

This is a limitation of the video game market; the inability to address a wide range of tastes.

It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

I think you feel like the minority because you are in the minority.

Originally posted by Scrogdog

 

It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

Music changes too. I remember my father telling me about how much better the music was in the 60's and 70's, and I was like "Whatever, Smashing Pumpkins will be great forever!"

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Scrogdog

 

It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

Music changes too. I remember my father telling me about how much better the music was in the 60's and 70's, and I was like "Whatever, Smashing Pumpkins will be great forever!"

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Scrogdog

 

It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

Music changes too. I remember my father telling me about how much better the music was in the 60's and 70's, and I was like "Whatever, Smashing Pumpkins will be great forever!"

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

 

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

 

That's single player music. Can you still go to the concert? No. Also, was Smashing Pumpkins ever good?

/flamehat

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Sythion
 

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

 

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

 

And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

Good thing is all the older games are going free. So when you need a nostalgia kick, jump back into one of the older ones.

I just started playing Vanguard. Having fun with it. Old school system like you are reminiscing about with better graphics than EQ. Playing old games reminds me what I liked about them, and reminds me what I did not like about them.

The reality, if you miss the old EQ, DAOC tyoe days, you really need to look backwards instead of forward. Any game now that comes out will never be exactly like that. Its just good business to accomodate a broad audience, and there is alot more pressure to do so from big name companies funding the devs. I think the old schoolers have an easier time finding a comfortable home in an older game after the dust settles than they do the new rage. With that come the nerd raging, QQ, I want it now kids and the insta-rage when their impossible expectations are not met.

Best thing about the older games was the community. Great thing is, most of the older games, and indie games still have it if you are willing to sacrfifice graphics and alot of times polish.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Sythion
 

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

 

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

 

And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

for the last time, the EQ that exists now is not the game that existed 5 years ago. or 10 years ago. or longer. current EQ is basically a shitty WoW.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Sythion
 

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

 

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

 

And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

The problem is that we need NEW games of many different flavors!

As I can also get NEW musical classical works if I want.

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Scrogdog

Originally posted by Sythion
 

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.

 

I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.

 

And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

The problem is that we need NEW games of many different flavors!

As I can also get NEW musical classical works if I want.

The biggest problem I have with sandboxes is also their biggest strength: a world that relies on players for content.  Do you want to know why were are here talking about games instead of designing them?  Because we aren't any good at designing games.  Nor are most gamers.  Yet sandboxes leave the generation of content in these games to us.  That's why I don't bother with them.  Most gamers are not entertaining, which inevitably creates a listless, souless game.  To me, being able to whack another player over the head when they least expect it is NOT enough to qualify as engaging content.

When sandboxes are created with a detailed world that can tick along on it's own without player input, I'll be interested.  When it can do that and incorporate player interference without breaking, I'll try it.  When it can do all of that and allow the developers to maintain a complex metastory without inpinging on player freedom, I'll have its babies.

Yes, I want a hybrid game. I want the developers to continue to do what the are supposed to be good at and let me carve out my own, personal niche in it.